Stand Up For The Freedom of Women

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Was I wrong to adop such an idea because I was not given the choice of having this ideology? OR should I have rejected it because it was part of my familie's traditional ideology and culture?

Fair questions. I have no quarrel with you, tenth.

Nevertheless, part of growing up is to think critically about the environs in which one lives. No, we don't choose where we are born. But as we develop (in adolescence) it is a perfectly natural and healthy thing to ask "why?" of our elders. Just like a preschooler asks "why?".... it's important for people to have options, to explore those options, and to make choices as adults whether or not they agree with the status quo.

Not rejection "because it was part of my family's ideology and culture", but because we are all unique, and there are some aspects of lifestyle that an adult has the right to determine for themselves. As youth get older they notice that not all families are exactly the same. They notice that people live in different ways (if they are educated and aware)...it is normal, and natural, for them at that point to make some choices about who they want to become, how they want to live, and what their OWN values are. This is critical to "self-individuation".

I do not condone prohibition of that rite of passage from youth to adult.

I've not visited those countries, nor met 100s of women there, and I openly admit that I don't understand Islam very much. But, I've always been a "why?" person...
I understand many people tend to think "oh, okay" when told "we do it this way". I'm not one of them. Perhaps it's a personality quirk or whatever. I remember a small-town woman in a job I once had, and while I was in training (accounting) I would ask my boss, "Okay, and why do we do it this way? What is the objective -- the outcome to which we are working?" She overheard me one day from across the room and said, "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHY? JUST DO IT!"

Sorry, I just don't go along with that kind of thinking. Never have. Not part of my makeup. But then, I've always been a front-row, hand-in-the-air student. Oh well.

Originally posted by luciddream
Thought this cartoon would be appropriate, its about perspective i guess.

Image:Musilim VS Western Women

One hoping for the best and treating men as non-hostile people and the other expecting the worst and treating men as hostile people.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

From my viewpoint, my family members are kinda nuts to agree to what I think is oppressive. But they don't see it that way at all, and have expressed sorrow for me living a "normal" lifestyle.

Kinda nuts? It IS oppressive. Any cult that lowers any gender to a subservient role in any way, shape, or form, IS oppressive.

People stuck in cults frequently convince themselves they are right, and feel sorry for "normal" people, because they don't understand the "truth". It's little different from abduction or kidnapping victims who eventually identify with, and come to love their abductors.

I'm not going off on you personally by any means smyleegrl, but having dealt with cults, including the one I was in, I take cult behavior very seriously and personally.

edit on 7/3/2012 by Klassified because: (no reason given)

Finally, someone sounds like a liberal loving person. For a while I was thinking I'd stumbled upon a Sout East Asian forum.

'Stockholme Syndrome'......often makes kidnap victims convert to Islam.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by TheFogHorn

 

Isn't it about time the focus was taken off the women who choose to wear a symbol of seperation and onto the women who are forced to, both muslim and non-muslim?

The only solution that I can see is for the government to enforce the laws already in place that protect you and others. What has happened when you or others call the police?

PHONE CALL TRANSCRIPT

Me...Hello. I want to report some unacceptable behaviour.

Police....Ok. Please tell me what has happened.

Me.....I get eggs, pooh and wee pushed through my letterbox every night and smeared all over my walls and windows.

Police.....did you see who did it?

Me.....no. I was asleep.

Police.....sorry, but we can't do anything about that unless you see who did it and have independent witnesses.

Me.....all my neighbours are muslim so no chance of getting witnesses. I also have to leave the house, day or night, wearing a long hooded coat but still get followed by every man who sees me. This is extremely intimidating and frightening and I'm worried one night I will get raped. They ask me how much I charge, assuming I'm a prostitute, but don't take no for an answer until I shout 'NO!!' several times while they breath down the back of my neck while I walk as fast as I can. Men cross the street and even change directions to follow me. Every man I've ever passed at night has done this to me. I often wait to be chaperoned by a male housemate but that's not always possible. I'm very afraid.

Police......do you have witnesses to this? Did they hurt you?

Me....no witnesses. I was alone every time. Had I not been alone they wouldn't have approached me.

Police....there's nothing we can do unless they actually rape or hurt you. If that happens then let us know, assuming you have a witnesses.

Me....ok, thanks.


............................................................

There's more but....

So....what's the point in that then?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by tothetenthpower

Fair questions. I have no quarrel with you, tenth.

Where did you ever get that idea? We are having a lovely conversation

Nevertheless, part of growing up is to think critically about the environs in which one lives. No, we don't choose where we are born. But as we develop (in adolescence) it is a perfectly natural and healthy thing to ask "why?" of our elders. Just like a preschooler asks "why?".... it's important for people to have options, to explore those options, and to make choices as adults whether or not they agree with the status quo.

Ah, and there lies the main issue. Critically thinking about your environment. Problem with religious types, is that doesn't work out. The answer is always " God's Will".

Take my grandmother for instance, I once asked her why the wind blew the way it did, she replied " That's Jesus giving you kisses." That's the wrong answer to give an 8 year old who wants to know about this world.

And yes, it is very important for young adults to have information made available to them, which in turn they use to make their own decisions. You'll notice a lot of youth from those countries try to immigrate to nations like the UK or Canada, or the US, but because of our Xenophobia of Islam, they do not stay long or don't come at all.

And it makes them stuck in their own little version of "Little House On The Prairie".

Not rejection "because it was part of my family's ideology and culture", but because we are all unique, and there are some aspects of lifestyle that an adult has the right to determine for themselves. As youth get older they notice that not all families are exactly the same. They notice that people live in different ways (if they are educated and aware)...it is normal, and natural, for them at that point to make some choices about who they want to become, how they want to live, and what their OWN values are. This is critical to "self-individuation".

Yes, which in my many cultures and religions is something that is looked down upon. What we consider freedom of expression is often regarded as blasphemy in those religions. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's their cultural norm brought on by the elders that make it so.

I've not visited those countries, nor met 100s of women there, and I openly admit that I don't understand Islam very much. But, I've always been a "why?" person...
I understand many people tend to think "oh, okay" when told "we do it this way". I'm not one of them. Perhaps it's a personality quirk or whatever. I remember a small-town woman in a job I once had, and while I was in training (accounting) I would ask my boss, "Okay, and why do we do it this way? What is the objective -- the outcome to which we are working?" She overheard me one day from across the room and said, "WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHY? JUST DO IT!"

Seems like you've had a few crappy bosses, I can relate. And Islam is VERY complicated to understand, there are whole sects that are different with different interpretations. Just look at all the different denominations of Christianity, there are just as many for Islam.

Sorry, I just don't go along with that kind of thinking. Never have. Not part of my makeup. But then, I've always been a front-row, hand-in-the-air student. Oh well.

Sadly as you would excel in this society using that mentality, you would be set back in theirs for asking too many questions about things that already have answers.



A little off topic this video is, but it discusses how if Religion had not taken hold of the middle east, how different things would have been.

~Tenth

reply to post by charles1952


Charles.....you give me a ray of hope

Cultural relativism......it what makes some people say we have no right to criticise muslims for divorcing their wives via text message.

I just like Westernised culture and want to be able to live a Westernised life and know my offspring will live a similarly free and liberal life after I've gone. Anything that threatens that is going to be met with hostility because I have escaped the cultural Marxism that gave us politcal correctness. I'm not politically correct....I'm just true to myself.

reply to post by wildtimes


YOU SAID....'Not getting to see women just makes them all the more titillating a taboo.'

Exactly and we in the West must realise the pain barrier women in the past had to cross in order for women to be able to walk about pretty much untroubled no matter what they wear.....and fight tooth and nail to protect our precious liberties. We've had them for such a short time. What a shame it would be if we valued them so little they were easy to take away from us....maybe forever.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

You mean Pentacostals? Yeah I have a few friends growing up who were part of that too.

It's quote opressive, in my own opinion, but if they found peace in that, who am I to tell them different?

The problem we have is that "activists" want to take moral high ground and push their ideology onto others. When in al honestly people are completely happy with the current state of things and wish the status quo to remain the same.

I would normally be the first person to argue against that notion, but with religion? I think it's a crock of BS all the way around sure, but that doesn't give me the right to berate and be nasty to those who have faith for something.

Same goes for these women. As long as they are making the concious choice to be a part of this movement or religion, then I have no issues.

Only when coercion and violence comes into play do I start feeling like a I Have a responsibility to fight it.

~Tenth

So what you're saying is that you have no concern for the women whose lives are being affected detrimentally due to these Miss Headscarves setting a precedent in their predominantly muslim areas? This is my point. You need to start to think in terms of how it affects and will affect non-muslim women.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


I would stand up for the freedom of women, if I didn't live in a country where women have almost all of the same rights as men.

Sounds like women should stand up for themselves instead.

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
So what you're saying is that you have no concern for the women whose lives are being affected detrimentally due to these Miss Headscarves setting a precedent in their predominantly muslim areas? This is my point. You need to start to think in terms of how it affects and will affect non-muslim women.

Who are you to say that it's affecting them badly?

That's your opinion, not a fact on what's going on.

How is this affecting non-muslim women? 99% of all muslims I know, don't want anybody but muslims subscribing to their cultural norms. Only the extremists cry about Sharia law and whatever else nonsense they want.

You need to start thinking how your idea of changing things is actually the same as asking Christians to stop going to church because I think it's indoctrination.

~Tenth

Originally posted by TheFogHorn

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by TheFogHorn

 

Isn't it about time the focus was taken off the women who choose to wear a symbol of seperation and onto the women who are forced to, both muslim and non-muslim?

The only solution that I can see is for the government to enforce the laws already in place that protect you and others. What has happened when you or others call the police?

PHONE CALL TRANSCRIPT

Me...Hello. I want to report some unacceptable behaviour.

Police....Ok. Please tell me what has happened.

Me.....I get eggs, pooh and wee pushed through my letterbox every night and smeared all over my walls and windows.

Police.....did you see who did it?

Me.....no. I was asleep.

Police.....sorry, but we can't do anything about that unless you see who did it and have independent witnesses.

Me.....all my neighbours are muslim so no chance of getting witnesses. I also have to leave the house, day or night, wearing a long hooded coat but still get followed by every man who sees me. This is extremely intimidating and frightening and I'm worried one night I will get raped. They ask me how much I charge, assuming I'm a prostitute, but don't take no for an answer until I shout 'NO!!' several times while they breath down the back of my neck while I walk as fast as I can. Men cross the street and even change directions to follow me. Every man I've ever passed at night has done this to me. I often wait to be chaperoned by a male housemate but that's not always possible. I'm very afraid.

Police......do you have witnesses to this? Did they hurt you?

Me....no witnesses. I was alone every time. Had I not been alone they wouldn't have approached me.

Police....there's nothing we can do unless they actually rape or hurt you. If that happens then let us know, assuming you have a witnesses.

Me....ok, thanks.


............................................................

There's more but....

So....what's the point in that then?

I know you no longer live there, and this would be all conjecture.

Video phones are your best friend. Do it as inconspicuously as possible, but that would have supplied proof.

Did you consider calling a reporter? They might have taken a look and done some undercover investigating.

Did you discuss it with your landlord, maybe could have requested external cameras and that would give proof.

reply to post by TheFogHorn

Dear TheFogHorn,

I know we've disagreed about somethings, but as you point out, what's important is that we are allowed to disagree due to the rights we have as humans. My life insurance does not pay off for suicide, so I will not go to Tehran and say "I disagree with Mohammad, I disagree with the Koran, I disagree with the Ayatollah." ( I especially won't say it while carrying a sign with Mohammad's face on it. I hate granite sandwiches.)

This is need not be treated as a religious fight, or as a cultural fight, although it is both of those. I want to treat it as a fight against slavery and human indignity. (Sorry, I'm getting steamed up here. Wait a second. Ok, let me try again.)

Some of the ideas of Islam are wrong. If someone says they are only different ideas from ours, you can't call them wrong that person falls into your cultural relativism trap. If we can't tell right from wrong, then why bother to do right? Why bother to do anything except for the things that bring you creature comfort? (Sorry, I'm getting incoherent again. Ok, one more time.)

I am not saying the majority of Muslims are the problem, but the energy, the driving force is. Islam wants to culturally and religiously conquer the world by jihad or any other method that will work. That is visible in the events of Europe, Africa, the Middle East, North America. It must be stopped. As people are added to its slave pens the world becomes less free. Are we hoping that the moderates, who are afraid to speak out, will take on the Islamists with their bombs? They may, but it's not a sure thing.

I'm worried that I'm not making sense here. Emotions plus lack of sleep. But those who respect the dignity of the human being, believe that we are all equal with infinite value, and treasure freedom and liberty, those people will be on guard against the religious and cultural slavery we are facing.

With respect,
Charles1952

New American Standard Bible
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
Matthew 28:19

Sounds like another religion with interest in world domination.....

reply to post by smyleegrl


Well, the part that frustrates me is how women will demand that they have rights, then expect to be treated special. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

reply to post by smyleegrl

Dear smyleegrl,

Forgive me for not giving your comment the thought it deserves, but this came instantly to mind: "My Kingdom is not of this world."

I don't see any threat that the Methodists are going to order us to eat their famous green bean casserole. Even the Catholics aren't beating or stoning those who don't fast on Friday. I can find religious cartoons across the whole spectrum from support to criticism in the Christian and Jewish religions. But you can't find it in Islam.

I must be missing something, but I just can't see the two as equivalent. Are you as afraid of living in a western society where a majority are Christians, as you are of living in a society where the majority are Muslims?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by tothetenthpower


YOU SAID...'You'll notice a lot of youth from those countries try to immigrate to nations like the UK or Canada, or the US, but because of our Xenophobia of Islam, they do not stay long or don't come at all.'

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying you believe muslims move to the West, find the welcome not to their liking and then leave? The truth, in the UK at least, is that they do whatever they can to get in the door and move directly to one of the muslim areas. They mostly make no effort to integrate and mostly have no intention of changing their attire, their language, their religion or their customs. These muslim areas are lorded over by Islamists who the British cannot remove due to human rights laws. They build mosques in the thousands, the big ones usually funded by hardline Wahabi Saudis. The build Islamic schools to help isolate and indoctrinate the youth and also send them to Koran studies where they have the book beaten into them. The school books contain hatred of non-muslims and the mosques (not always) secretly encourage a hardline attitude. Muslim girls are fooled into visiting relatives in Pakistan or falsely believing their are attending a family wedding only to have their passports removed and find themselves at the altar about to marry their first cousin from the local village.....a Westernised woman hitched to a village boy and probably destined to produce lots of kids, some of wholm will be physically or mentally disabled due to inbreeding, which is a huge problem in the UK thanks to Muslims. Gay muslims must battle with their conflicts and not get any sympathy from their communities, often being forced to marry a village girl who they end up despising. Straight young men, who are not allowed to mix with other muslim women very much, have too much testosterone in their bodies plus plenty of self pity and hatred of the mother culture/religion/population and take out their rage by driving souped up cars too fast, giving dirty looks, socialising in groups of men and sometimes using white girls as pretend girlfriend prostitutes. They too often get married off to their Pakistani village cousin, end up despising them and use white prostitutes in adulthood. Too many children are born with physical and mental disabilities due to first cousin marriages, but not many are actually seen out and about due to the stigma involved and the need to protect the family honour from criticism from the community......hiding the evidence is preferential to doing the right thing and getting the invalids the help they need. They live amongst themselves and ghetto-ise neighbourhoods, forcing non-muslims to leave via underhand tactics, due to not wanting to live like the hosts. The ghettos become mini-Pakistans in which no signs of Westernism are tolerated. Posters are defaced and non-muslims businesses fail. They are then turned into sari shops, halal butchers, Islamic video rental shops and not a lot else, curry houses and kebab shops being on the fringes of the areas due to serving the cultural enthusiasts and students. Muslim girls who get into trouble are sometimes forced to marry a cousin to make amends or killed. If they manage to leave, on suspecting their lives are in danger, their whereabouts are easily tracked due to the country's well connected network of muslim taxi drivers. An escapee in Rochdale will rightly worry about being found in Leeds. Muslim girls who grow up with Westernised friends can suddenly find the men in their communities put pressure on them to become less Westernised and stick to the muslim community. Non-muslim women living in the area will be sexually harassed for even just walking down the street and will find it impossibly dangerous to show their hair and face. Financial benefits encourage massive families so muslim families are much larger than the population's average and almost 50% of South East Asian people of working age are unemployed. Huge muslim families are able to get free accommodation in the form of vast townhouses in the best areas of London, such as Mayfair, all paid for by the taxpayer. Most ghettos have taken over inner city areas of former mill towns but have spread into more middle class areas. Once fine Victorian areas with beautiful houses and flowering well-kept gardens are now run down smelly slums. Public houses and social centres have closed or been converted into mosques, as have thousands of small churches. The areas are gloomy, unwelcoming, dirty, unpoliced, dangerous and joyless.

Things are getting worse and not better.

This paints a bleak picture, which is obviously looking at everything from the worst possible current perspective, but it should give you an idea of what's happening. I suspect, after reading your little remark above, this will all be new to you.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by TheFogHorn
So what you're saying is that you have no concern for the women whose lives are being affected detrimentally due to these Miss Headscarves setting a precedent in their predominantly muslim areas? This is my point. You need to start to think in terms of how it affects and will affect non-muslim women.

Who are you to say that it's affecting them badly?

That's your opinion, not a fact on what's going on.

How is this affecting non-muslim women? 99% of all muslims I know, don't want anybody but muslims subscribing to their cultural norms. Only the extremists cry about Sharia law and whatever else nonsense they want.

You need to start thinking how your idea of changing things is actually the same as asking Christians to stop going to church because I think it's indoctrination.

~Tenth

I've said several times now on this forum that I have been the victim of chronic sexual abuse and religious cleansing. That explains the 'who are you to say' stance.

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Originally posted by TheFogHorn

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by TheFogHorn

 

Isn't it about time the focus was taken off the women who choose to wear a symbol of seperation and onto the women who are forced to, both muslim and non-muslim?

The only solution that I can see is for the government to enforce the laws already in place that protect you and others. What has happened when you or others call the police?

PHONE CALL TRANSCRIPT

Me...Hello. I want to report some unacceptable behaviour.

Police....Ok. Please tell me what has happened.

Me.....I get eggs, pooh and wee pushed through my letterbox every night and smeared all over my walls and windows.

Police.....did you see who did it?

Me.....no. I was asleep.

Police.....sorry, but we can't do anything about that unless you see who did it and have independent witnesses.

Me.....all my neighbours are muslim so no chance of getting witnesses. I also have to leave the house, day or night, wearing a long hooded coat but still get followed by every man who sees me. This is extremely intimidating and frightening and I'm worried one night I will get raped. They ask me how much I charge, assuming I'm a prostitute, but don't take no for an answer until I shout 'NO!!' several times while they breath down the back of my neck while I walk as fast as I can. Men cross the street and even change directions to follow me. Every man I've ever passed at night has done this to me. I often wait to be chaperoned by a male housemate but that's not always possible. I'm very afraid.

Police......do you have witnesses to this? Did they hurt you?

Me....no witnesses. I was alone every time. Had I not been alone they wouldn't have approached me.

Police....there's nothing we can do unless they actually rape or hurt you. If that happens then let us know, assuming you have a witnesses.

Me....ok, thanks.


............................................................

There's more but....

So....what's the point in that then?

I know you no longer live there, and this would be all conjecture.

Video phones are your best friend. Do it as inconspicuously as possible, but that would have supplied proof.

Did you consider calling a reporter? They might have taken a look and done some undercover investigating.

Did you discuss it with your landlord, maybe could have requested external cameras and that would give proof.

There was no such thing as a video phone decades ago I doubt it would be possible for a white teenage girl to live there now.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I am happy men have lots of rights and I think it's nice to try to treat everyone as special.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


I've seen women make a make fetch drinks for all of them, not even bother to assist in carrying them back to the table, and they all laughed while he struggled.

I have also seen women treat men as something disgusting because of someone a single man did to them.

I have seen women do many things that state they would much rather men be slaves to the female population, than not be treated as though they were queens.

With racism, the black have turned on the whites. With sexism, the women have now turned on the men...no pun intended.