Stand Up For The Freedom of Women

Posted here for greater attention as I believe this is a very important issue....

Women who live amongst muslims will find they are under increasing pressure to dress in an Islamic way or face retribution in the form of unwanted attention or even attacks.....in muslim countries and in muslim ghettos in non-muslim countries. Either it's because Islam makes men intolerant sexist abusers or it's that muslim men are inherently intolerant sexist abusers. I prefer to think the religion had something to do with it.

Facts from Wiki's 'Hijab' page...... en.wikipedia.org...

Non-governmental enforcement of hijab is found in many parts of the Muslim world.

Hamas, reportedly used "a mixture of consent and coercion" to "'restore' hijab" on urban educated women in Gaza in the late 1970s and 1980s.....

.....In the course of this campaign women who chose not to wear the hijab were verbally and physically harassed, with the result that the hijab was being worn 'just to avoid problems on the streets'.



France...."Girls who did not conform were excoriated, or chased, or beaten by fanatical young men meting out Islamic justice.

'The Weekly Standard, a survey conducted in France in May 2003 reportedly "found that 77% of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups."

Islamists in other countries have been accused of attacking or threatening to attack the faces of women in an effort to intimidate them from wearing of makeup or allegedly immodest dress.'

QUOTED SNIPPETS END.

.........................................................................

If a woman feels more comfortable hiding herself in a headscarf it is because she knows or feels the men around her view her primarily as a sexual object. Either she wants her husband to be the only person to get a look-in, peep-show style, or maybe she's afraid of the strange men on the street. Either way, she views outside men as unwanted, frightening or not to be trusted.

The reason why veil wearing started was due to male insecurity.....Mohammad's. He neither trusted his many wives and concubines to not give the eye to the many visiting dudes nor trusted said dudes to not sneak out with a Mo Maid. Mohammad treated his wives like a herd of sheep, veiled off.

It all comes down to lack of trust in the goodness of other people. Mohammad didn't trust visiting men and therefore his wives had to sweat and be tickled behind a face veil. That resulted in the pernicious belief women must be hidden, women cannot be trusted and men will go wild if they do actually get to see a beauty. It started off unhealthily and it's not got any better.

The problem with women covering up excessively is that they then have the responsibility for their own safety and the men are allowed to carry on with their sexist mentality. Muslim men in muslim countries or areas are not encouraged to develop their character and treatment of women. The result of this lack of socialisation is evident in examples such as Logan in Egypt, the female blond journalist who was repeatedly sexually assaulted by many men. This level of depravity is due to the men not being used to a pretty face and blond hair. That is where we in the West are heading. Take note.

Designing a way of life around the lowest common demonimator is never going to result in a good system. The onus for female security should not lie squarely at women's feet; men must meet us halfway. Women who cover up excessively are doing men as great a disservice as women who walk around looking and acting like Page 3 girls. Islam and the porn industry are causing men to miss out on the opportunity to really know women as equals. Muslims and trash are as bad as each other in terms of giving women the chance to be just ordinary human beings....not overly covered and not overly exposed....just normal.

If there are any men reading this who now think shrouding women from the attention of other men sounds like a convenient idea should try spending a day with a headscarf and face veil on and then decide whether it's better all round if they just develop a bit of self assurance instead.

Stand Up ! All Hail!

A burka is the last thing Muslim women need to worry about in some countries. Things like genital mutilitation, can't drive, can't leave the house without a man, can't vote, etc. It makes no sense why people obsess on their clothing when other issues are so much more important.

What a silly an ridiculous notion.

People really need to learn about the culture of these people.

Women who wear the Hijab and the Burka do not do so by force. This is a cultural norm and most women accept and enjoy wearing them. Yes we consider it oppressive and part of an archaic line of thinking.

What is with all the muslim hating these days? It's kind of unbelievable the propaganda that exists.

~Tenth

Originally posted by RealSpoke
A burka is the last thing Muslim women need to worry about in some countries. Things like genital mutilitation, can't drive, can't leave the house without a man, can't vote, etc. It makes no sense why people obsess on their clothing when other issues are so much more important.

It's all part of the same thing.....female subjugation, the seperation of the sexes and a lack of socialisation in men. My focus is on the West, seeing as that is my home. As Egypt votes in an Islamist party meaning Egyptian women's lives will become far more iliberal, Muslims are establishing their own Islamist ghettos in our countries. That affects our women and we should do something about it. We can't realistically do anything about Egypt but we do have the power to save ourselves.

This story is the extreme end of the headscarf debate....

According to Saudi press reports the blaze at Makkah Intermediate School No. 31 started at about 8am. The blaze began in a room on the top floor, apparently caused by an unattended cigarette.[3][4][5]

As a result of the fire and ensuing rush to escape, 15 young girls died, and more than 50 were injured. Nine of the dead girls were Saudis; the rest were from Chad, Egypt, Guinea, Niger, and Nigeria.[4] The majority of the deaths occurred when a staircase collapsed as the girls fled the building. The residential property upon which the school was built, being overcrowded with 800 pupils, was very unsuitable. In addition, the building may have lacked proper safety infrastructure and equipment, such as fire stairs and alarms.[2]

According to at least two reports, members of the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV), also known as Mutaween, would not allow the girls to escape or to be saved from the fire because they were "not properly covered", and the mutaween did not want physical contact to take place between the girls and the civil defense forces for fear of sexual enticement, and variously that the girls were locked in by the police, or forced back into the building.

en.wikipedia.org...'_school_fire

QUOTE END

In the West, we are at the thin end of the wedge. As muslim populations increase dramatically due to birth rate differentials and immigration, and as muslim ghettos become more and more segregated and Islamified, we will move along that wedge towards the mentality in the Saudi incident.

No more to progressive thinking anymore. You all have run a mock to the world and it has come to an end.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
What a silly an ridiculous notion.

People really need to learn about the culture of these people.

Women who wear the Hijab and the Burka do not do so by force. This is a cultural norm and most women accept and enjoy wearing them. Yes we consider it oppressive and part of an archaic line of thinking.

What is with all the muslim hating these days? It's kind of unbelievable the propaganda that exists.

~Tenth

This is a carry-over from another thread A Challenge To All Non-Muslim

To be fair to the OP, she had some frightening experiences while living in a predominantly Muslim area (I think this is right, OP correct me if I'm wrong).

I have family members who belong to an incredibly strict Christian church, denomination is Church of God. In their church, women are forbidden to cut their hair, must wear long dresses, no makeup or jewelry, and must wear a headscarf. From my viewpoint, my family members are kinda nuts to agree to what I think is oppressive. But they don't see it that way at all, and have expressed sorrow for me living a "normal" lifestyle.

The point is they chose to be followers of that religion AND THEY FOUND PEACE.

Is it so hard to believe that a Muslim woman can be happy and content?

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
What a silly an ridiculous notion.

People really need to learn about the culture of these people.

Women who wear the Hijab and the Burka do not do so by force. This is a cultural norm and most women accept and enjoy wearing them. Yes we consider it oppressive and part of an archaic line of thinking.

What is with all the muslim hating these days? It's kind of unbelievable the propaganda that exists.

~Tenth

This is a carry-over from another thread A Challenge To All Non-Muslim

To be fair to the OP, she had some frightening experiences while living in a predominantly Muslim area (I think this is right, OP correct me if I'm wrong).

I have family members who belong to an incredibly strict Christian church, denomination is Church of God. In their church, women are forbidden to cut their hair, must wear long dresses, no makeup or jewelry, and must wear a headscarf. From my viewpoint, my family members are kinda nuts to agree to what I think is oppressive. But they don't see it that way at all, and have expressed sorrow for me living a "normal" lifestyle.

The point is they chose to be followers of that religion AND THEY FOUND PEACE.

Is it so hard to believe that a Muslim woman can be happy and content?

I'm not talking about the ones who happily sit sweating away under their shrouds. I'm concerned about the mostly unseen and unknown down side to headscarf wearing.....the hiding of women from the world. There is a down side, I have experienced it and it is growing exponentially in our own countries. Unfortunately, not many people would believe it and not many people would be able to stop themselves from screaming RACIST in the face of a victim of muslim sexual harassment.

Isn't it about time the focus was taken off the women who choose to wear a symbol of seperation and onto the women who are forced to, both muslim and non-muslim?

Thought this cartoon would be appropriate, its about perspective i guess.

Image:Musilim VS Western Women

reply to post by smyleegrl

From my viewpoint, my family members are kinda nuts to agree to what I think is oppressive. But they don't see it that way at all, and have expressed sorrow for me living a "normal" lifestyle.

Kinda nuts? It IS oppressive. Any cult that lowers any gender to a subservient role in any way, shape, or form, IS oppressive.

People stuck in cults frequently convince themselves they are right, and feel sorry for "normal" people, because they don't understand the "truth". It's little different from abduction or kidnapping victims who eventually identify with, and come to love their abductors.

I'm not going off on you personally by any means smyleegrl, but having dealt with cults, including the one I was in, I take cult behavior very seriously and personally.

reply to post by Klassified


I understand, no offense taken.

The interesting thing about it, they had at one time left this church for about ten years. Dressed in whatever they chose, cut their hair extra short, etc. Then the father died in a farming accident. At his funeral, the pastor from their original church in Ohio spoke. It was disgusting. He basically blamed my uncle's death on his unconfessed sins, saying that God killed him on purpose. I wanted to scream when he said that. Anyway, a month layer the family moved to Ohio and rejoined the church.

Let me make it clear, this is just one church. The denomination itself generally isn't as puritanical or restrictive.

Sorry for the brief derailment of your thread OP.

reply to post by TheFogHorn

Isn't it about time the focus was taken off the women who choose to wear a symbol of seperation and onto the women who are forced to, both muslim and non-muslim?

The only solution that I can see is for the government to enforce the laws already in place that protect you and others. What has happened when you or others call the police?

reply to post by luciddream


That's great!



reply to post by Klassified

Originally posted by Klassified
Any cult that lowers any gender to a subservient role in any way, shape, or form, IS oppressive.

That would include just about every Christian religion, then.

People stuck in cults frequently convince themselves they are right, and feel sorry for "normal" people, because they don't understand the "truth".

Yep, Islam as well as Christianity.

Of course you can find cases of Muslim women being abused. (Duh!) There are plenty of cases of Christian women being abused in the name of God, too. Does the OP have this "fear" about Christianity?

I'm all for the freedom of women. But just like ALL other oppressed minorities, they need to band together and stand up for their rights. As long as the majority are practicing their religions' dictates willingly (and they ARE) there's not much we can or should do, IMO.

Freedom of religion. And if the OP is focusing on the West, we have LAWS that protect these women.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

That would include just about every Christian religion, then.

Yep. You nailed it. That's the cult I belonged too. And I don't mean that to be offensive to Christians, that's just the way I see fundamentalism now. And isn't it ironic that I, as a Christian, was trying to save the souls of those poor Moonies caught up in a cult.

I think there are basic principles which are often not discussed because we get tangled in the surface issues.

You remember our Declaration:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,[76] that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, . . . .

Do we believe it? I suspect some on this thread and many in our country, do not. Do we believe that governments are put in place to insure we have those rights? Again, I suspect not.

Many are urging us to believe that rights come from one's culture, that there is nothing wrong with the statement "Oh, they don't have a lot of rights that the rest of the world enjoys, but it's OK because their culture took them from them."
Consider for a moment the cartoon of two women posted in this thread. Could you post a drawing of a woman in a revealing swimsuit in every Islamic country? You can here. In the West, women can go to the beach in a bikini or a burka. Are women in Islamic countries allowed the same choice?

There is no need to go through the nearly endless list of options that have been closed off in some Islamic countries in the name of their religion. And no, I am not hating Muslims. I am loving freedom, feeling sorry for those who do not enjoy it, and strongly disagreeing with policies that deprive people of that freedom.

Let me say something inflammatory. All other things being equal, a culture that encourages freedom is superior to one that doesn't. Can you believe that? Can you say, and really mean, that one culture can be superior to another? Many Americans can't. But if we can't, if we are unable to tell the difference between good and bad, and lack the courage to speak, then America and the West are on their death beds, dying from self-inflicted wounds.

P.s. Like the addition to my signature?

Women have an awesome lot of power. Men...and manKIND...would go extinct without them. This is the conundrum of all ages. Women are able to bring forth human beings. To ancient people (REALLY ancient), this was a mind-boggler -- a person who bleeds yet does not die, who grows another person, and is equipped to FEED that new person, was enough to send superstitious men into a tailspin. Then, and now.

Women feel disenfranchised by numerous patriarchal cultural and social constructs. They are unaware of the awesome power they really hold. To every woman out there -- stand up for yourself. Respect yourself, and look after your needs.

I realize that the OP wrote this specifically re the Muslim faith and how they treat/degrade their women. In those cases, yes, they need to band together and prevent themselves and their sisters from being abused, mistreated, subjugated, manipulated, and shamed. It's backward and stupid.

As far as the "covering up" thing goes, it's the same as the "forbidden fruit". Not getting to see women just makes them all the more titillating a taboo.

There's nothing wrong with "covering up" if you want to; in fact the women of India dress spectacularly, and I would love to be able to pull off that look -- gorgeous. But a simple headscarf that hides one's hair because....why? No one wants to see your hair? Your hair is just too tantalizing and will drive men mad? Your hair is bad and you should be ashamed of it? Or it's your trophy and a closely guarded precious treasure?

I don't get it. Body image is a major problem for women. It seems that some cultures feel women should not have "bodies" at all. I'm not sure this post adds anything worthwhile to the thread, but the main point is:

WOMEN. You have POWER. Men know it, too. Or they wouldn't be so preoccupied with trying to surpress it.

reply to post by smyleegrl


You mean Pentacostals? Yeah I have a few friends growing up who were part of that too.

It's quote opressive, in my own opinion, but if they found peace in that, who am I to tell them different?

The problem we have is that "activists" want to take moral high ground and push their ideology onto others. When in al honestly people are completely happy with the current state of things and wish the status quo to remain the same.

I would normally be the first person to argue against that notion, but with religion? I think it's a crock of BS all the way around sure, but that doesn't give me the right to berate and be nasty to those who have faith for something.

Same goes for these women. As long as they are making the concious choice to be a part of this movement or religion, then I have no issues.

Only when coercion and violence comes into play do I start feeling like a I Have a responsibility to fight it.

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Same goes for these women. As long as they are making the concious choice to be a part of this movement or religion, then I have no issues.

Only when coercion and violence comes into play do I start feeling like a I Have a responsibility to fight it.

Apparently, there is a lot of violence and/or threats thereof. And I'm not so sure they are making a "conscious choice" in that sense. If born into it, they are required/compelled to uphold the cultural traditions, with no gainsaying allowed.

To those who have willfully joined it as adults, I say, "You go, girl. Whatever floats your boat." But...to those who are simply expected to follow the laws/rules imposed by their parents/society...to them I say, "Question Authority."

Still, this thread has brought to light some very interesting cultural differences...
I remember when my daughter was a young teen, my mom was all adamant that I teach her "how to set a proper table" for entertaining. She felt it was crucial. Never mind that we didn't do the formal place-settings in my home, but boy was that important to my mom! (She's not so fussy anymore, but still, it was expected...like thank-you notes, and covering your mouth when you yawn, and not chewing with one's mouth open...no elbows on the table, no singing at meals...EDIT TO ADD: The items following thank you notes above I still do....it's just habit, and good manners)

Strange, the "expectations" we are born into.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Apparently, there is a lot of violence and/or threats thereof. And I'm not so sure they are making a "conscious choice" in that sense. If born into it, they are required/compelled to uphold the cultural traditions, with no gainsaying allowed.

I was born into a family that above all else believe in the equality of all, regardless of skin color, creed, belief systems etc..

Was I wrong to adop such an idea because I was not given the choice of having this ideology? OR should I have rejected it because it was part of my familie's traditional ideology and culture?

To those who have willfully joined it as adults, I say, "You go, girl. Whatever floats your boat." But...to those who are simply expected to follow the laws/rules imposed by their parents/society...to them I say, "Question Authority."

To them it is not authority, it is simply the way their culture works and it's actually something they respect and love. I've been to middle eastern countries, I've met these women, hundreds of them, and hardly any seemed unhappy with the state of things. And this wasn't an act.

And the men in this case? Treated their women with more respect than I've seen in traditional western marriages and relationships. Sure I saw some domestic violence and other weird crap that isn't worth talking about, but that happens anywhere.

Still, this thread has brought to light some very interesting cultural differences...
I remember when my daughter was a young teen, my mom was all adamant that I teach her "how to set a proper table" for entertaining. She felt it was crucial. Never mind that we didn't do the formal place-settings in my home, but boy was that important to my mom! (She's not so fussy anymore, but still, it was expected...like thank-you notes, and covering your mouth when you yawn, and not chewing with one's mouth open...no elbows on the table, no singing at meals...EDIT TO ADD: The items following thank you notes above I still do....it's just habit, and good manners)

So do you think you were wrong for adopting these practice? Simply because your mother thought it was important for you to learn them and did not give you a choice?

There is a difference between being raised into something that you learn to appreciate and respect, and being brainwashed or indoctrinated into a line of thinking that hurts or oppreses you.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Strange, the "expectations" we are born into.

edit on 3-7-2012 by wildtimes because: various things.

Indeed.

~Tenth