Republicans’ Ex-Spokesman Calls For Armed Rebellion Over Obamacare

Originally posted by RealSpoke
I doubt ANYONE really knows what is in the obamacare bill. I'm willing to bet NO ONE actually read all 2000+ pages.

No one should have to read more than 2000 pages of any legislation to determine how it applies to them, and certainly the cottage industry this "tax" has helped to flourish is a dubious method of "understanding" legislation.

Void for Vagueness Doctrine:

1) A constitutional rule that requires criminal laws to state explicitly and definitely what conduct is punishable. Criminal laws that violate this requirement are said to be void for vagueness. Vagueness doctrine rests on the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution. By requiring fair notice of what is punishable and what is not, vagueness doctrine also helps prevent arbitrary enforcement of the laws. 2) Under vagueness doctrine, a statute is also void for vagueness if a legislature's delegation of authority to judges and/or administrators is so extensive that it would lead to arbitrary prosecutions. Illustrative caselaw

Originally posted by Bakatono

Originally posted by frazzle

So what would happen if on January 1st (or rather the 2nd) every employee changed their W4 to exempt status? Would that not be the first step in a genuine tax revolt?

can that be done? Just fill out a new W4 and exempt yourself? What does that mean? Does that mean no federal income tax is deducted from our pay? Does it mean no taxable income is reported to the IRS? Or, does it mean that our taxable income is reported but we paid 0 so the IRS sends their jack-booted thugs, who are now armed, to our house to collect?

Sure it can be done. As to the wisdom of doing it, I won't give advice although I did know a guy who did that and nothing at all was taken out of his paycheck until the following April when the IRS sent a demand notice to the employer that they must withhold for the rest of the year as if he was single with no dependents and he got nailed a $500 frivolous penalty on his refund. I guess the only way to make something like that work would be to move from employer to employer to stay ahead of those demand notices. But there were no jack booted thugs involved.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


What I want to know is, are there extra things in the bill that do not pertain to healthcare that the government to trying to sneak through with this bill? They are notorious for this.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

No, I couldn't, I have absolute know knowledge of tax laws. But all it takes is a jury to find you guilty due to confirmation bias. They have and they will.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you are here today for one reason and one reason only. You are here because I do not understand the tax code. I have been charged with crimes against the government because I do not understand the tax code. Now, the prosecuting attorney may inform you that ignorance of the law is not excuse, but I am not claiming ignorance of the law, I am simply arguing that I do not understand the tax code. I could not prove one way or the other whether I was liable for the tax in question or subject to the applicable revenue laws, but you know what I can prove? I can prove that it is not just I who doesn't understand the tax code, I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the prosecuting attorney doesn't understand the tax code!

I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the presiding judge does not understand the tax code. I will assert without any fear of recourse or contradiction that none of those people sitting over there watching this trial unfold understand the tax code, and let's be honest here, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, not a single one of you understand the tax code.

If I don't understand the tax code, and the prosecuting attorney and the plethora of witnesses he calls don't understand the tax code, if the judge doesn't understand the tax code and if none of you understand the tax code, then how could any of you reasonably determine I am guilty of the charges brought against me? Indeed, the only reasonable verdict you could render would be to acquit.

providing health care to millions of other FELLOW CITIZENS is enough to take down the government.

reply to post by detachedindividual

How does taxing people who can't afford healthcare providing it to millions?
Please explain that to me.
I will admit I did not read all 3,000+ pages
Do you some how believe that this new law will give you free healthcare?

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

I will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the presiding judge does not understand the tax code. I will assert without any fear of recourse or contradiction that none of those people sitting over there watching this trial unfold understand the tax code, and let's be honest here, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, not a single one of you understand the tax code.

Good luck trying that one in court.

Regardless of how you feel about taxation or our court system, directly insulting the entire courtroom (including the judge) is a great way to land yourself in the slammer.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by frazzle

 

So what would happen if on January 1st (or rather the 2nd) every employee changed their W4 to exempt status? Would that not be the first step in a genuine tax revolt?

The more prudent strategy would be to nullify the agreement between employee and employer and revoke any and all signatures contractually authorizing an employees employer to "withhold" the tax to begin with.

If that employee determines that they never were liable for any "income" tax to begin with then "exemptions" do not apply. If one is not subject to the applicable revenue law and is not liable for any tax, it stands to reason they need no exemption from that tax.

I've heard of that but never knew exactly how to go about it. Maybe by showing the the employer the exact part of the code that breaks down "who must file/pay" and showing how their own employment does not apply?

I only remember the part of the code that names officers of corporations and government employees as taxpayers, but I know I'm forgetting one or two.

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by lives

 

Pretty silly reason to take up arms.

Affordable healthcare? Oh no, we can't have that! But banning gay marriage, abortion and starting mindless wars? We're down!

/sarcasm

First off, you miss the point because you are blinded by the pretty titles that congress puts on bills to obscure their intent. People aren't upset about "affordable" health care. I am sure you would find universal support for making healthcare more affordable. However, this law does nothing of the sort, it merely compels people to buy health insurance.

It is forcing people to buy health insurance. Not making it cheaper.

It is forcing people to buy what the government decided you need to buy, regardless of your opinion or preference for that which you do, or do not, wish to buy.

It is dictatorial. Hell, it is a "mandate". They even call it that. A small group of a few hundred people have mandated that the collective citizenry of the United States all do as they are told and go spend their money on this particular product, or else.

You don't see a problem with this?

What will you say when they come out with the "affordable fuel act" which compels YOU to go out and buy a chevy volt?

The massive corruption between the military industrial complex, bankers and government wasn't enough. The clear destruction of the freedoms of the American people with the Patriot Act wasn't enough. But according to many of the idiotic and ignorant right, providing health care to millions of other FELLOW CITIZENS is enough to take down the government

You don't get it- they HATE their Fellow Citizens! Republicans hate Americans except for themselves and a small number their buddies. They HATE America, they want to live in a mythical revolutionnary-era theocratic Aristocracy.

reply to post by drwizardphd

Good luck trying that one in court.

Regardless of how you feel about taxation or our court system, directly insulting the entire courtroom (including the judge) is a great way to land yourself in the slammer.

Telling the truth is not a crime. If you think that this entire courtroom I insist doesn't understand the tax code actually does, you could effectively prove this by simply explaining how it was you became subject to the applicable revenue laws and how you were made liable for this tax. Why don't you show this court of public opinion at how well you understand the tax code?

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by lives

 

Pretty silly reason to take up arms.

Affordable healthcare? Oh no, we can't have that! But banning gay marriage, abortion and starting mindless wars? We're down!

/sarcasm

Wikipedia - American Revolution

I guess they were pretty silly too huh.

Originally posted by GunzCoty

providing health care to millions of other FELLOW CITIZENS is enough to take down the government.

reply to post by detachedindividual

 

How does taxing people who can't afford healthcare providing it to millions?
Please explain that to me.
I will admit I did not read all 3,000+ pages
Do you some how believe that this new law will give you free healthcare?

Most of the fools who applaud this assault of freedom do actually believe this gives everyone free health care. They are blinded by political ideology and can't actually see what is happening.

However, I bet they will be whining about it when the opposite political party is in power and begins to compel them to do something while giving it a rosy title.

reply to post by frazzle


The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) tells your employer exactly what to do in the event an employee refuses to supply any signature on a Form W4.

26 CFR 31.3402(f)(2)-1

For form and contents of such certificates, see 31.3402(f)(5)1. The employer is required to request a withholding exemption certificate from each employee, but if the employee fails to furnish such certificate, such employee shall be considered as a single person claiming no withholding exemptions.

The only thing an employer is required to do is make the request. If a signature on a Form W4 is not forthcoming from any employee, that employer is then instructed to mark that employee a single person claiming no withholding exemptions.

reply to post by Bakatono

Most of the fools who applaud this assault of freedom do actually believe this gives everyone free health care. They are blinded by political ideology and can't actually see what is happening.

However, I bet they will be whining about it when the opposite political party is in power and begins to compel them to do something while giving it a rosy title.

People in government know all they have to do to get support for a bill or a tax is to throw the words FREE, or FAIR, or AFFORDABLE on the title and its good to go for the majority. And the more illegible and convoluted the wording is, the more people think, wow, those guys are geniuses, so it must be good.

Interesting new thread which has a flow-chart of this law:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wow, I had no idea it was that bad.

As this graphic shows, the new law creates 68 grant programs, 47 bureaucratic entities, 29 demonstration or pilot programs, 6 regulatory systems, 6 compliance standards and 2 entitlements. What could possibly go wrong with something so-well organized?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

The only thing an employer is required to do is make the request. If a signature on a Form W4 is not forthcoming from any employee, that employer is then instructed to mark that employee a single person claiming no withholding exemptions.

Well, dammit Jean Paul, you just give us no choice but to create our own money systems and start up our own businesses.

In the United States

Local Currency was common in this country during the Depression when banks failed and many communities decided to create their own currencies as a way of increasing the local money supply and supporting local businesses and residents. Over 300 cities and thousands of communities and organizations issued emergency currency.

www.beyondpeak.com...

Taxes are levied in dollars, though, so don't call your currency dollars.

reply to post by frazzle

Well, dammit Jean Paul, you just give us no choice but to create our own money systems and start up our own businesses.

I have long argued that this is what many of us should do, just start our own business, but you certainly do have a choice, and as I showed, as an employee you are under no legal compulsion to sign any Form W4 and your employer has no legal compulsion to demand you do.

reply to post by Bakatono

Wow, I had no idea it was that bad.

I'm thinking of taking up witch doctoring. Looking at that chart, it should be a roaring success. I'll probably even save more lives than anybody on that chart will. Maybe I'd take a chicken or some eggs in payment. No first born children accepted.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by frazzle

 

Well, dammit Jean Paul, you just give us no choice but to create our own money systems and start up our own businesses.

I have long argued that this is what many of us should do, just start our own business, but you certainly do have a choice, and as I showed, as an employee you are under no legal compulsion to sign any Form W4 and your employer has no legal compulsion to demand you do.

I don't think they can even demand that you have a social security number. According to some "experts", it never was a law that you must have a SS # to work and the only thing the law says about it is if you don't have a number FICA can't be withheld from your pay.

See, the thing is, you don't HAVE to, but no corporation will hire you if you don't. That's why we need to go small.

Originally posted by GunzCoty

providing health care to millions of other FELLOW CITIZENS is enough to take down the government.

reply to post by detachedindividual

 

How does taxing people who can't afford healthcare providing it to millions?
Please explain that to me.
I will admit I did not read all 3,000+ pages
Do you some how believe that this new law will give you free healthcare?

If your poor you get reduced rates to make it affordable instead of just going to the ER, skipping out on the bill and having it passed on to everyone else. If you can go to the doctor early and have problems taken care of before they become so big you need an expensive ER visit. So poor people still get a free ride and they get better health care plus it costs the rest of less to pay for it. The people that lose are insurance companies and big Pharm and they are not happy.