The Rightful Constitutional Christian Ownership of America

reply to post by autowrench

Dear autowrench,

A pleasure to see you again, and thank you for talking about the historical documents that have been mentioned in various threads over time. You caused me to explore, a very good thing.

In the threads I looked through I found five documents or categories of documents: The letters and writings of Jefferson, Paine, and Adams, The Treaty of Tripoli, and the Constitution's failure to mention "Christianity." Should I have found more? I only looked through about 8-10 threads.

Oh, I didn't consider documents from about 1900 on.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by EvanB
Jesus said "MY Kingdom is not of THIS world"...

And if no servant is greater than his Master then Christians have no claim to anything in THIS world.. We are merely diplomats in a strange land...

Then why do so many of you care about being in control and crushing the Muslims? Why hate the gays? Why be racist? I don't see any diplomats.

Seems to me that you want everyone here to bow to your superior intellect because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. Afterward you expect to go straight to heaven where your golden chariot awaits to bring you to your huge mansion made especially for you.

How about just giving up everything in THIS WORLD and waiting for the next one to be happy? Isn't that what the Bible says to do?

reply to post by onecraftydude

It seems we have a different understanding of Christians.

Then why do so many of you care about being in control and crushing the Muslims? Why hate the gays? Why be racist?

None of those are Christian teachings, nor are they the tendencies of those I know. I'm sure it happens it individuals "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." But Christianity condemns those things, and people with those feelings are urged to correct them.

Seems to me that you want everyone here to bow to your superior intellect because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I'm sorry if I've created that impression. I have no idea about my intellect, and certainly it only counts as a tool. Can we use it to help others is the more important question. The evidence I've seen has peruaded me that my faith is right, otherwise why would I have it? People don't retain beliefs that they think are wrong, certainly. I'm sure you think you are right, too.

Afterward you expect to go straight to heaven where your golden chariot awaits to bring you to your huge mansion made especially for you.

Some Christians do expect to go to Heaven, the rest don't expect it but hope for it. As for chariots and mansions? I don't think so, those are lyrical images, symbols designed to express the inexpressible.

How about just giving up everything in THIS WORLD and waiting for the next one to be happy? Isn't that what the Bible says to do?

No, that's not what the Bible says to do. We are instructed to love our neighbor, which means, in general, that we are to try for the very best for others. It may include feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned, or other acts designed to lighten the burdens that we all have to carry.

reply to post by charles1952


Hello Charles,

Since the link we are looking for relies on a God of a legally indefinable form, these connections to our nation are sometimes found outside the bounds of the constitution.

Redneck13


Sometimes you find a sage in the strangest places, a comedian for example

en.wikipedia.org...

Text
The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of loyalty to the federal flag and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.[1] The Pledge has been modified four times since its composition, with the most recent change adding the words "under God" in 1954.

Congressional sessions open with the recital of the Pledge, as do government meetings at local levels, and meetings held by many private organizations. It is also commonly recited in school at the beginning of every school day, although the Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge, or punished for not doing so.

According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge of Allegiance reads:[2]
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
According to the Flag Code, the Pledge "should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present and not in uniform may render the military salute. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."[2]

reply to post by onecraftydude

One of the many attacks on our country from the Religious Right is the claim that our country is a Christian Nation...not just that the majority of people are Christians, but that the country itself was founded by Christians, for Christians. However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. Those people who spread this lie are known as Christian Revisionists.

source

If they have their own little name and everything! Not sure how I feel about it though. I'm not the biggest fan of Christians. Mainly because they do not comprehend the bible in many cases. I think the word Christian is tarnished by it's own sucess, and we should come up with something new.

If there are 7 billion people in the world, and 6 billion assholes, and 5 billion Christians, then there are more Christian assholes than in any other religion. Basic math wins again!

reply to post by redneck13

Dear redneck13,

You are absolutely right. From the very first, when the colonists came searching for religious freedom (among other things), the Judeo-Christian religion has been built into the very fabric of America. It was something taken for granted from before the founding and for a hundred years thereafter. It was almost like English, or gravity, it was just an assumed part of life.

Of course, whenever you're dealing with people, you'll find a few exceptions, but I'm still looking for evidence that the people of America, or most of it's leaders, rejected that religious view.

Written into the Constitution? It didn't need to be. It was there in the hearts of the country.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


So the Treaty of Tripoli means nothing to you then??

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion....

About which John Adams wrote:

Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.

Or the rejection of any clause including christianity in the national constitution, when it was already in several state constitutions??

You just gloss over these as nothing?

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Dear Aloysisus the Gaul,

I put what I think is a releveant comment in my post at the top of the page. It was kind of buried in the middle of the post so please allow me to repost with emphasis.

A pleasure to see you again, and thank you for talking about the historical documents that have been mentioned in various threads over time. You caused me to explore, a very good thing.

In the threads I looked through I found five documents or categories of documents: The letters and writings of Jefferson, Paine, and Adams, The Treaty of Tripoli, and the Constitution's failure to mention "Christianity." Should I have found more? I only looked through about 8-10 threads.

Oh, I didn't consider documents from about 1900 on.

I'm not forgetting the Treaty of Tripoli, or the Constitution's lack of specific mention. What I was doing was looking through ATS to find what evidence I could opposed to the "Christian Nation" idea. That was all I could find. Is there anything else?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


how about you look for evidence that the USA was founded as a xian nation instead?

You will find plenty of evidence that eh various founders had some sort of religious belief - but of course that is not the same as founding the USA as a xian nation.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Dear Aloysius the Gaul,

how about you look for evidence that the USA was founded as a xian nation instead?

I'm sure you remember that I posted a number of interesting documents on page 5 of this thread, you commented freely on them. And I seriously looked through past threads to find opposing evidence.

You will find plenty of evidence that eh various founders had some sort of religious belief - but of course that is not the same as founding the USA as a xian nation.

May I suggest that the problem may be that we are arguing about two different things? I think the problem may be that we don't have a clear understanding of the phrase "Christian nation." (Or, "xian nation" as you seem to prefer.)

Nobody has ever argued that the Christian Church is the ultimate political authority of the US. What do you mean by "Christian nation?" Maybe we agree with each other.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


My definition of a christian nation is one that has something uniquely christian about it - the easiest measure would be that it promotes, supports and encourages christianity and no other religions. However other possibilities may exist that I don't recognise at the moment.

It has nothing at all to do with whether the commonly held values at the time were shared by christianity. The so-called christian values have been held by almost every society that has ever existed - for example Romans, Greeks, Chinese and moslems are or were keen on piety, tolerance, and against murder, theft and adultery.

These are not values exclusive to christianity, therefore cannot be used to justify the idea that the USA was founded AS a christian nation.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Dear Aloysius the Gaul,

how about you look for evidence that the USA was founded as a xian nation instead?

I'm sure you remember that I posted a number of interesting documents on page 5 of this thread, you commented freely on them. And I seriously looked through past threads to find opposing evidence.

You will find plenty of evidence that eh various founders had some sort of religious belief - but of course that is not the same as founding the USA as a xian nation.

May I suggest that the problem may be that we are arguing about two different things? I think the problem may be that we don't have a clear understanding of the phrase "Christian nation." (Or, "xian nation" as you seem to prefer.)

Nobody has ever argued that the Christian Church is the ultimate political authority of the US. What do you mean by "Christian nation?" Maybe we agree with each other.

With respect,
Charles1952

Dear Charles1952,
It does not seem to be difficult to find evidence as by law, but man’s law does not bind God.
E pluribus Unum was adopted into the great seal in 1782
I wonder if that is like the great seals of the Bible

With respect
Redneck13




en.wikipedia.org...

Text
"In God we trust" was adopted as the official motto of the United States in 1956 as an alternative or replacement to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782.[1][2]


In God we trust has appeared sporadically on U.S. coins since 1864[3] and on paper currency since 1957.[4]

It is also the motto of the U.S. state of Florida. Its Spanish equivalent, En Dios Confiamos, is the motto of the Republic of Nicaragua


The phrase appears to have originated in the Star-Spangled Banner, written during the War of 1812. The fourth stanza includes the phrase, "And this be our motto: 'In God is our Trust

Aspirations for the motto arose surrounding the turmoil and heightened religious sentiment that existed during the Civil War. The Reverend M. R. Watkinson, as part of a campaign initiated by eleven northern Protestant Christian denominations in a letter dated November 13, 1861, petitioned the Treasury Department to add a statement recognising "Almighty God in some form in our coins."[6] At least part of the motivation was to declare that God was on the Union side of the Civil War.[7] According to Brian Burrell, the actual wording of the motto was inspired by a Union Civil War unit's company motto

reply to post by redneck13


Which god do we trust in?

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by redneck13

 

Which god do we trust in?

Black Jesus!

reply to post by onecraftydude


Spaghetti Monster is tastier - I trust what I can taste!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Dear Aloysius the Gaul,

My definition of a christian nation is one that has something uniquely christian about it - the easiest measure would be that it promotes, supports and encourages christianity and no other religions.

Thanks, that clears things up in a way. What do we do if the people of the nation promote, support, and encourage Christianity? Is that a Christian nation? Or are we looking only at our laws?

If it's laws only then I agree with your position.

With respect,
Charles1952

You people are kidding me right?

It's Not about this being a Christian nation - it's about all Americans having unalienable rights from The Creator. Many Christians simply feel one must have been a Christian to know about and understand these rights. That's where the notion that America is a " Christian nation" comes from. Many of the founding forefathers claimed at some time to be Christians or men of God and yet, many did not - yet they all wanted to establish that the generally held god given rights - the rights that even the English believed in were imparted to the people in such a way as to not be taken from them by the Government or denied by any other church.

The country was not first colonized by people seeking religious freedom. They came later. The conquering of the Americas was a financial venture by the King of England. It was only after a group of people that were disillusioned with The Church of England decided they needed to leave and start over did they petition the King for passage on a boat to the Kings American colonies. The King replied in favor but in return asked for the fruit of their labors to be returned. They later to be known as Puritans agreed. They now had a contract to work for the King.

Many of the early religions in America bear little resemblance to modern religions today. In fact the Puritans were the worst. They persecuted other religions claiming only Puritans could get to heaven and it must be the official religion of the country. They would even whip and imprison those who did not believe as they did. Years later when the U.S Constitution was drafted the forefathers wanted to avoid this type of unpleasantness so they borrowed from English Law's idea of Unalienable Rights or Natural Rights given to all by The Creator. These Rights were established in English Law way before anyone set foot in America and were believed by many religions in England, not just the Church of England. The problem with the Church of England is that it was always changing depending on what Pope was in power and how much influence he had over The King. Despite the Church of England being a non Catholic Church The King and by extension The Pope influenced it heavily. It was a tool used to control and indoctrinate The Masses. The ideas of Unalienable Rights and " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." seek to halt such actions.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

I found the Mayflower Compact, a part of it reproduced here. It seems as though Christianity was indeed a driving force behind the earliest colonization. Was there money involved? Ok, I'll buy that. But to say Christianity wasn't, seems to be a large error.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obiedience.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

I found the Mayflower Compact, a part of it reproduced here. It seems as though Christianity was indeed a driving force behind the earliest colonization. Was there money involved? Ok, I'll buy that. But to say Christianity wasn't, seems to be a large error.

Having undertaken, for the Glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents, solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic; for our better ordering, and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions, and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obiedience.

I didn't say Christianity wasn't a part of the ideals of the people on the boat. The Puritans and who ever else was on the boat all had their ideas about religion but it doesn't mean this nation was founded as a "Christian" nation. This nation was founded many years after the Mayflower landed and there were many changes in America in religion and political views on religion.

The Mayflower was not the first boat sent by the English to America. The Pilrgims/Puritans knew that the King already had established colonies in America. As early as 1580 Queen Elizabeth sent ships to America and established Virginia. There were at least 3 other major ships sent to colonize America between the Queens ship and the Mayflower, 1587, 1591 and 1606. In 1619, the Virginia colonist were given the right to self government. This is the reason in 1620 the Pilgrims left on the Mayflower to come to Virginia. They were blown off course and landed in Massachusetts, at a site they called Plymouth. The Pilgrims/Puritans added their small number to the large number of people already living here.. They were not as some believe the sole progenitors of religious belief in America or responsible for the sole colonization of America - or America eventually becoming a nation.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Dear Aloysius the Gaul,

My definition of a christian nation is one that has something uniquely christian about it - the easiest measure would be that it promotes, supports and encourages christianity and no other religions.

Thanks, that clears things up in a way. What do we do if the people of the nation promote, support, and encourage Christianity? Is that a Christian nation? Or are we looking only at our laws?

If it's laws only then I agree with your position.

the proposition is that the "nation" is "founded" as a "christian nation" - that is simply clearly not the case for any defintion of "christian natino" that I have seen that makes sense.

IMO it is not sufficient to say "the founders were all christian and therefore the the nation was founded as a christian nation" because it fails to show that the premise suports the conclusion.

to be a "christian nation" implies some difference from a "non-christian nation" - so what would those differences be? and having identified tehm, did they exist?

I have identified some that I think are relevant - AFAIK no-one else has done so. For the ones that I identified they are not in place & were not the case when teh nation was founded - therefoer it was nto founded as a christian nation.

We could debate the usefulness/reasonableness/accuracy of these or other characteristics if you like - and if we can actually establish what it would take to be "founded as a christian nation" then it would hopefully be obvious whether this was the case or not.