The Rightful Constitutional Christian Ownership of America

reply to post by fnpmitchreturns


Hahahahaha Funny.

Mittens

Do you really think that would be the scenario? Really?

And no, despite the African matter and his citizenship issues, Obamarama will prevail yet another term. The Vedic's suggested so anyways, in a,.......... (How would the Gaul put it??? oh yeah) ......... esoteric way.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


You see, You just answered my post for yourself. A man with a ............



Try to study the BIBLE Buddy.

The King James 1611 Bible

And here's a tool for research.

Strong's Lexicon

And here's a Day. You tell me it means JUST 24 Hours

3117 yowm yome from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.

Now, if you can get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, that covers word for word cross reference in Book Form, you will even be further ahead. The Lexicon above will not tell you Yowm was the term being translated into the English in Genesis 1. It just tells you the various applications for which Day is derived.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by onecraftydude

 

So even though many of the Founders of this country were Christians this is NOT a nation based upon Christianity in the slightest.

Except that there was a convent with God before the constitution
America's Great Religious Document
www.eagleforum.org...

Text
The Declaration of Independence

The Declaration of Independence of the United States of America acknowledges faith towards a supreme God who created mankind. The Declaration also acknowledges by all who signed it, the laws of God, the providence of God, and the judgment of God.

The Declaration also appeals to God as the Supreme Judge of the world for their intentions. Furthermore, for the support of this Declaration, the signers relied firmly on the protection of Divine Providence

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station
to which the laws of nature
and of nature's God
entitles them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal,

that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in general Congress assembled,
appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent States, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliance, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.

And for the support of this Declaration,
with a firm reliance
on the protection of Divine Providence,
we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

When those Signers of the Declaration wrote the words ...firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,...a school child can see, if the teacher shows him, how close this is saying they put their trust in God to help them accomplish what they believed to be the will of God....!

reply to post by redneck13


Except that most of the Founders were deists who believed God was a sort of grand architect. Here on ATS a big deal is often made about how many Founders were masons, and the Great Seal has the Eye of Providence (or Eye of God) looking down on a pyramid. This is because masons are generally deistic, the G in the compass and rule symbol also represents the grand architect.

Thomas Jefferson, the primary author for the Declaration, was a deist, though he certainly had a fondness for Jesus' moral teachings he seems to have rejected the supernatural elements of the story (the Jefferson Bible excludes Jesus' miracles). Jefferson believed in questioning religious beliefs and there were even attacks against him before his election to the Presidency calling him an infidel based on his deism.

"Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you." -- (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)

Source

When they got around to replacing the articles of confederation with the Constitution the Founders were very careful to craft a Constitution that allowed religious liberty for all and kept the State from setting up a government supported Church (or religious institution of any kind).

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

God, as in the singular “God” of Abraham on which Judaism and Christianity are based. “Divine Province”, a holly state. The declaration of Independence is acknowledgment of the Christian covenant with God.If you check, you will find Israel’s declaration states that it is a Jewish nation. They were formed under the Israel covenant through the same God.

morallaw.org...

Text
Strict separationists like Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State and atheists like those at Freedom from Religion Foundation often claim these are generic rote references in order to downplay the Christian influence on the founding of our country. They typically say that the Founders were deists at best and only employed religious language to dupe the masses in America to go along with their proposals. This claim is, by and large, flatly false. As Librarian of Congress James Hutson has observed, the Founders “were demonstrably, regular churchgoers, who knew their Bibles and incorporated scriptural texts into their working vocabularies.” Most of the Founders were thoroughgoing Christians, while a few were less religious. All were theists, believing that an all-powerful God had created life and blessed America. Even Common Sense author Thomas Paine, who later wrote diatribes against Christianity (for which he was castigated in America), stated in his infamous Age of Reason that, “I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.” Belief in the afterlife is not a deist doctrine.

The separationists and atheists’ most common “proof” of the Founders’ deism is Thomas Jefferson. Their claim that Jefferson was a deist leads them to a syllogism which goes something like this:
(1) Jefferson was a deist;
(2) Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence; therefore,
(3) The Declaration is a deistic document, referencing a generic God.

This syllogism would be clever if it were not based on two false premises. First, Jefferson was not a deist. Navigating this issue requires proper definitions. Noah Webster’s 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language, the first standard dictionary of American English, defines a deist as “One who believes in the existence of a God, but denies revealed religion, but follows the light of nature and reason, as his only guides in doctrine and practice; a freethinker.” The key to this definition is the emphasis on following “the light of nature and reason” because deists held that God does not intervene in human affairs and that supernatural intervention was not necessary to life and understanding of the world. Jefferson did not believe this. In one of his most famous quotes, he discussed the repercussions for the nation regarding slavery and noted:


And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever . . . .” (Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781).

This quote clearly considers God’s intervention, and even judgment, in human affairs. In a letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse on June 22, 1823, Jefferson wrote, “The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. 1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect. 2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments. 3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.” As I noted before, believing in a future state of rewards and punishments is contrary to deist doctrine.

Other quotes could be culled from Jefferson’s writings, but the above statements should suffice to establish that—while Jefferson was not thoroughgoing Christian—he certainly was not a deist. This matters because it means that when Jefferson referenced God in the Declaration, even his version of God was not the distant “philosopher’s God” Hasson argued for before the 9th Circuit.

More important for this post than who gets credit for the authorship of the Declaration is its audience. Jefferson himself related in an 1825 letter to Henry Lee who the audience was when he said that the Declaration was “intended to be an expression of the American mind and to give to that expression the proper tone and spirit called for by that occasion.” The American people—to whom and for whom the Declaration spoke—were overwhelmingly Christian. A ten year study of 15,000 documents from the founding era (1760-1805) showed that the Founders quoted the Bible more frequently than any other sources. Thirty-four percent of their citations were directly to the Bible

edit on 1-7-2012 by redneck13 because: .

reply to post by redneck13


The "Jefferson bible" is a much stronger argument for Jefferson's deism than any quote which is not particularly one thing nor the othe will ever be- he rewrote the bible stripping away every reference to the supernatural and all dogma.

He doesnt' seem to quite have the belief of classical deism that god does not intervene in human affairs tho - as per the quote above he was a bit worried about gods wrath, and certainly hoped for god to help in abolishing slavery.

As a result he has also been called a theistic rationalist.

But one thing he was certainly not was a christian in any sense we understand the term today.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

No doubt, that Jefferson had issues with believing in the Christ, but no problem believing in the teachings of Jesus and the God of Abraham. The main factor in Jefferson turning away from mainstream religion of the time was an empowered European church
www.adherents.com...

President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997 By some of the more narrowly-conceived definitions of the word "Christian" which are in use today, particularly among Evangelicals since the 1940s, it is entirely possible that Jefferson's beliefs would mark him as a "non-Christian." Defining Jefferson as a non-Christian must be done purely on contemporary theological grounds, because he was clearly a Christian with regards to his ethics, conduct, upbringing, and culture. Furthermore, to define Jefferson as a "non-Christian" requires using definitions retroactively to classify Jefferson counter to his own self-concept and the commonly understood meanings of words during his own time.

In a practical sense, classifying Jefferson as a "Deist" with regards to religious affiliation is misleading and meaningless. Jefferson was never affiliated with any organized Deist movement. This is a word that describes a theological position more than an actual religious affiliation, and as such it is of limited use from a sociological perspective. If one defines the term "Deist" broadly enough, then the writing of nearly every U.S. president or prominent historical figure could be used to classify them as a "Deist," so classifying people as such without at least some evidence of nominal self-identification is not very useful.
en.wikipedia.org...
Further information: Thomas Jefferson and religion
Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward Deism and the moral philosophy of Christianity.

In a private letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803): "To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence..."[185] In a letter to his close friend William Short Jefferson clarified, "it is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, of so much absurdity, so much untruth and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."[186]

Jefferson praised the morality of Jesus and edited a compilation of his teachings, omitting the miracles and supernatural elements of the biblical account, titling it "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".[187] Jefferson was firmly anticlerical saying that in "every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot...they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes."[188]

Jefferson rejected the idea of immaterial beings and considered the idea of an immaterial Creator a heresy introduced into Christianity. In a letter to John Adams, Jefferson wrote that to "talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus taught nothing of it. He told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is

The Rightful Constitutional Christian Ownership of America ?

It is intriguing to think that Jefferson's study of the Qur'an may have inoculated him—to a degree that today we can only surmise— ainst such popular prejudices about Islam, and it may have informed his conviction that Muslims, no less and no more than any other religious group, were entitled to all the legal rights his new nation could offer. And although Jefferson was an early and vocal proponent of going to war against the Barbary states over their attacks on us shipping, he never framed his arguments for doing so in religious terms, sticking firmly to a position of political principle. Far from reading the Qur'an to better understand the mindset of his adversaries, it is likely that his earlier knowledge of it confirmed his analysis that the roots of the Barbary conflict were economic, not religious.

Jefferson's Qur'an



Islam in America - Thomas Jefferson's Quran

Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

No doubt, that Jefferson had issues with believing in the Christ, but no problem believing in the teachings of Jesus and the God of Abraham.

Indeed - even as an atheist I think there is much worse people could do than actually follow the purported teachings of the heterodox amateur rabbi usually identified as Jesus Christ....or at least whoever wrote "his" teachings.

reply to post by iIuminaIi


The quran of Jefferson. I would indeed believe he owned at least one, since Muslims were the first to attack the United States proving one point, we don’t believe in Allah

en.wikipedia.org...

Text
anti-American terrorism predated the rise of the United States as a global power and is justified by the Quran. This is exemplified by the events leading to the First Barbary War. Muslim pirates of Algiers, Morocco, Tunis, and Tripoli Barbary Coast had attacked, enslaved and held American merchant sailors for ransom, soon after the establishment of the United States of America in 1776 (see First Barbary War). These terrorist-type attacks predated any U.S. involvement in the Islamic world and occurred before the US had been involved in any overseas military action. In 1786, future U.S. Presidents Thomas Jefferson and John Adams met with Tripoli’s envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman in an attempt to negotiate an end to the piracy. Adams and Jefferson summarized their meeting in a letter dated March 28, 1786 to John Jay, the United States Secretary of Foreign Affairs:

"We took the liberty to make some enquiries concerning the ground of their pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation. The Ambassador [of Tripoli] answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (muslims) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

These diplomatic engagements suggest that a modern Jihad-like ideology existed prior to any U.S. involvement in the Islamic world, and that the Koran was used to justify this ideology

Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by iIuminaIi

 

The quran of Jefferson. I would indeed believe he owned at least one, since Muslims were the first to attack the United States proving one point, we don’t believe in Allah

en.wikipedia.org...

Text
anti-American terrorism predated the rise of the United States as a global power and is justified by the Quran. This is exemplified by the events leading to the First Barbary War. Muslim pirates of Algiers, Morocco, Tunis, and Tripoli Barbary Coast had attacked, enslaved and held American merchant sailors for ransom, soon after the establishment of the United States of America in 1776 (see First Barbary War). These terrorist-type attacks predated any U.S. involvement in the Islamic world and occurred before the US had been involved in any overseas military action. In 1786, future U.S. Presidents Thomas Jefferson and John Adams met with Tripoli’s envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman in an attempt to negotiate an end to the piracy. Adams and Jefferson summarized their meeting in a letter dated March 28, 1786 to John Jay, the United States Secretary of Foreign Affairs:

"We took the liberty to make some enquiries concerning the ground of their pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation. The Ambassador [of Tripoli] answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (muslims) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

These diplomatic engagements suggest that a modern Jihad-like ideology existed prior to any U.S. involvement in the Islamic world, and that the Koran was used to justify this ideology

edit on 2-7-2012 by redneck13 because: .

Only douchbags delivers weak responses , lol at WIKI

reply to post by redneck13


I might aswell be a slight douchbag for example

Christian terrorism comprises terrorist acts by groups or individuals who claim Christian motivations or goals for their actions. As with other forms of religious terrorism, Christian terrorists have relied on idiosyncratic or literal interpretations of the tenets of faith – in this case, the Bible. Such groups have used Old Testament and New Testament scriptures to justify violence and killing or to seek to bring about the "end times" described in the New Testament,[1] while others have hoped to bring about a Christian theocracy.[2][3] Rajeev Srinivasan writes in the Daily News and Analysis: "There are many historical examples of Christian religious terrorism, going back to the liquidation of the Albigensians and other heretics around 345 CE, the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition... all the way to assassinations by radical anti-abortionists in the US. The National Liberation Front of Tripura is an explicitly Christian terrorist group, forcibly converting people. The National Socialist Council of Nagaland has unleashed terrorism in its pursuit of 'Nagalim for Christ'."[4]

Christian terrorism

WIKI

reply to post by redneck13


Since you don't believe in allah, What do you believe ? who's your god redneck ?

5 Reasons America is not, and never has been, a Christian nation is a great article from AlterNet that outlines the reasons this group of religious folks truly don't understand religious freedom or freedom from religion.

1.The Text of the Constitution Does Not Say the United States Is a Christian Nation

If a Christian nation had been the intent of the founders, they would have put that in the Constitution, front and center. Yet the text of the Constitution contains no references to God, Jesus Christ, or Christianity. That document does not state that our country is an officially Christian nation.

And with good reason. Even if they attempted to claim dominion which sect of Christianity would be the true and rightful group to hand it over to?

2. The Founders’ Political Beliefs Would Not Have Led Them to Support the Christian-Nation Idea

Key founders such as James Madison and Thomas Jefferson opposed mixing church and state. They would never have supported an officially Christian nation.

Jefferson and Madison came to this opposition in two ways. First, they were well-versed in history and understood how the officially Christian governments of Europe had crushed human freedom. Moreover, they knew about the constant religious wars among rival factions of Christianity. Second, they had witnessed religious oppression in the colonies firsthand.

They understood that a religious governance of our nation would spiderweb out into every portion of our daily lives. Religious governors/presidents have already attempted to be in our bedrooms more than they rightfully should.

3. The Key Founders Were Not Conservative Christians and Likely Would Not Have Supported an Officially Christian Nation

To hear the religious Right tell it, men such as George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison were eighteenth-century versions of Jerry Falwell in powdered wigs and stockings. This is nonsense.

The religious writings of many prominent founders sound odd to today’s ears because these works reflect Deism, a theological system of thought that has since fallen out of favor. Deists believed in God but didn’t necessarily see him as active in human affairs. The god of the Deists was a god of first cause: he set things in motion and then stepped back.

Our leaders believed in a god more than the Christian God.

Any attempt add religious zealotry into the Constitution throughout history has been shot down, and for good reason.

reply to post by iIuminaIi

The American Christian terrorist listed in your wiki page is the KKK types. Racism and bigotry are not Christian values, although people may claim these organizations to be Christian they most certainly are not as any normal Christian would attest as such.
This is not the Muslim bashing thread, this is the thread where we bash Christians for thinking they have something to do with the founding of the United States so please lets continue,

reply to post by redneck13


LMFAO my wiki ?

Ok,

Since you don't believe in allah, What do you believe ? who's your god?

Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by iIuminaIi

 

The American Christian terrorist listed in your wiki page is the KKK types. Racism and bigotry are not Christian values, although people may claim these organizations to be Christian they most certainly are not as any normal Christian would attest as such.
This is not the Muslim bashing thread, this is the thread where we bash Christians for thinking they have something to do with the founding of the United States so please lets continue,

You know, People do comment indirectly

I could smell a phony miles away

reply to post by Anonymous404

The Declaration of Independence forms the country as a Holy Land and its basis for the use of the word “God” is in reference to the singular God of Abram. It is not in the constitution. Christian values were used as the model for the laws. All atheist are welcome to share in the great gifts God has bestowed on this great nation, but come judgment day your on your own

Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by Anonymous404

 

but come judgment day your on your own

What an absurd statement.Just shows how stupid you are!

reply to post by redneck13


Then the Mormons MUST be right. >.>

That sentence is suspect as can be, eh? Ever actually read any writings of our founding fathers on religion? How about simply that article I linked as the first words in the sentence in my post?
Also, from the Declaration of Independence.