Why should any woman convert to Islam? A serious question.

reply to post by smyleegrl


no... saudi arabia is a monarchy... and afghanistan just has a bunch of ignorant loonies running the country....Most of the taliban are illiterate.

neither is run according to sharia.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Thank you for the clarification. I know Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, they also seem more restrictive towards women than other countries.

The Taliban enforces sharia law, doesn't it?

Have you read the books "Princess" from Saudi Arabia? If so, do you feel it is a correct portrayal of life in Saudi Arabia or not? I've read all three and they are disturbing.

Again, thank you for your responses.

Originally posted by smyleegrl
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

Forgive the ignorance, but I thought Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan also followed sharia law. Is this not the case?

I looked this up. You are correct

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, and the United Arab Emirates are under full Shariah law

Pakistan, Egypt and Iran have mostly Shariah law but also have some secular law and non-muslims are not expected to follow Shariah law

Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Chad, Somalia and Turkey have political parties that are aspiring to bring their countries under Shariah law and have been quite successful in their movement.

Also, some small pockets of France have allowed shariah law to rule in place of French law.

Originally posted by grandmakdw
reply to post by babloyi

 

I did a search of the Quran directly and the Haddith.

If there are Muslims who do not follow the teachings of the Haddith then I apologize to the Muslims who don't agree with or follow the Haddith.

These quotes are directly from the Quran

An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #34
As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means

An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #43
And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands


Also this is from the Hadith, a "quote" from Mohammed:
The Prophet said, "I stood at the gate of paradise and saw that the majority of the people who entered it were the poor, while the wealthy were stopped at the gate (for the accounts). But the companions of the Fire were ordered to be taken to the Fire. Then I stood at the gate of the Fire and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women." (Book #62, Hadith #124)

As is this "quote" from an apostle of Mohammed:
Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for that?" He replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was said. "Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?" He replied, "They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, "I have never seen any good from you.' " (Book #62, Hadith #125)

Also this is from the Hadith:
The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." (Book #6, Hadith #301)

So it seems you are correct, the Quran tells men to beat their wives as a last resort; clean themselves after coming into contact with women.
The Hadith in many places says the quote about most of the inhabitants of hell being women is a direct quote from Mohammed.
The other quotes are from the Hadith as many I sited before. I was unaware that the Hadith is not followed by many Muslims, so I apologize to those who do not follow its teachings as holy or authoritative.

Other criticisms that I look to Shariah law and equate it with Islam. It is Shariah law that is dreadfully misogynistic. I also apologize to the Muslims who also feel Shariah law is not the ideal form of government, nor is it a desirable form of government.
However, the majority of Muslims in the world do live under Shariah, do they not? And the proponents of Shariah say they are doing the will of Allah, do they not? They say all people should live under Shariah do they not?

I still have problems understanding why a woman today would choose (if she is free to choose) to convert.

I see You've been taking one of them good 'ol propaganda pills the Islamaphobes feed to you.
First of all, do you know that every verse in the Quran and everything in the hadiths all have different interpretations?
www.islamicperspectives.com...
for An Nisa 4 34

quran.com...
For An Nisa 4 43
I don't know where you got the phrase "In contact with women"
It means if you are in a state of Janabah (Sexual Impurity)


www.scribd.com...


In my opinion, I think it's quite sad you should go around posting anti-Islamic things while using sources which twist the words to suit their own purposes.

reply to post by smyleegrl


The taliban cannot even read the Quran in order to deduce what sharia law is, let alone enforce it. They are simply enforcing what they think it might be according to what the extremist wahabbi teachers say it should be. But have any of them read text? Most have not, because most cannot.

I have never read the book you speak of, although I know in Saudia women do not have rights, or what they have is very little. But this is not in accordance with Islam. The country itself does not even make the claim to be a country run according to Islam either, but one run according to the will of the monarchy.

reply to post by grandmakdw

Alright. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here. Although with you making statements like "women in islam promising their husbands unlimited rape for all eternity", I'm not sure why. You've obviously made up your mind, and I'm sorry, it does appear like baiting.


Islam, like many religions (and many cultures) has prescribed roles for the husband and wife. It is the husband's obligation to provide monetarily for the family. So yes, with no other defined will, if there is just a son and daughter, the son would get a larger share of inheritance. There are many other situations however, many of which the woman gets an equal (or sometimes even greater) amount of inheritance. It depends on the situation. Besides, it is odd that you single out Islam for this, when Judaism completely denies the woman any inheritance unless she has no brothers at all, and if she marries someone outside the tribe, she loses her inheritance. Heck, you even mention that other religions don't kill their family members for having different thoughts or opinions. Are you being serious? Even today, even now, you have hindus, christians, jews, sikhs killing someone who decided to convert.

As far as "touching women" necessitating ablutions before prayer, I hope you are not being naive. The verse is talking about after having sexual relations.

And then to come to the Hadith. Yes, most muslims follow the AUTHENTIC hadith. The thing is, just because something is said to be a saying of Muhammad, doesn't mean it actually is. It could've been forged, it could've been mixed up in transmission, etc. For muslims, unlike the Quran (which is considered the verbatim word of God), the Hadith are chains of narrators literally saying 'He said that she said that... he said that Muhammad said "...."'. So even if a Hadith is in one of the major books (like Sahih Bukhari), it doesn't mean it is automatically true. You have to research it up.
EVEN if you consider the hadith you quoted true, it still doesn't match what you said. Considering that "The majority of the inhabitants of hell are women" is the same as "The majority of women go to hell" is a logic fail. Never mind your own addition of "even if they were pious and good in their life".

Then you bring up "Shariah Law", belaying another total misunderstanding you have of the subject. "Shariah" (akin to the jewish idea of "Halacha") basically means "the way to behave" or "the path to follow". There is a portion of it that deals with legalistic stuff like inheritance and divorce and settlement of disputes, but that certainly isn't a major part of it. Which is why I find this major push in some countries (like the US, where they tried passing laws "banning shariah", although that is falling out of favour now) is so absurd. It is like saying "I don't mind muslims, but I mind muslims being muslims". So you don't want muslims to give to charity? You don't want muslims to plant trees? You don't want muslims to speak truth and deal with others with kindness and dignity and help out their neighbours and respect their elders and teach their kids and emphasise strongly on education? Because all that is shariah.
Just because a country is majority muslim, and a country has laws, doesn't make the countries laws shariah laws
Saudia Arabia doesn't allow women to drive (although that will probably change soon). This isn't some shariah law. This is Saudi law. It is very clearly recorded in the time of Muhammad that women rode camels and horses and all. Even the legalistic aspects of shariah (called "fiqh", which is a word that detractors of Islam don't like using, because fiqh is universally recognised in Islam as something fixed...it is up to the discretion of the judge, the scholars, and who you want to follow) isn't standard.
One country may have one law that they call "Shariah compliant", another may have a completely contradictory one that is shariah compliant. There is no one single fixed thing that you can point at and say "This is Shariah law".

You'll be interested to know that they did a study, and the majority of converts to Islam in Europe (I am not sure about the US), are native european women.

reply to post by RimDaas


Actually, I've been going to an online search engine of the Koran and Hadith. Quran, I mean - sorry. I have been inputting words into the search engine and the quotes are what has come up.

Once people said I was misquoting, I went to a Muslim web site directly and did my research - that is where I learned the difference between the Quran and the Hadith.
I have been informed that a lot of Muslims do not believe the Hadith is holy or a book to be followed. If this is true then the sects that reject the Hadith are not misogynistic.

As to the post on Islamic Shariah law countries. I went to a political science website and they had a list of all the governments of the world and what type of government they have. I then checked another political science website and found nearly the same results, except for France. The countries I listed as Shariah compliant, the legal system is totally based on Shariah. The countries partially Shariah, such as Iran, have a separate system of laws for non-Muslims. The first spoke of pockets of Shariah in France, which I know to be true because I lived on the border of France for 3 years, that it was all over the news there.

reply to post by grandmakdw


obviously a western political science website you went to as well... Since Iran is fully 100% Sharia law... it is a part of Sharia that Christians and Jews be allowed to follow their own set of laws in civil matters... this is 100% Sharia, not partial sharia country. Not one law that is not debated according to Quran and ahadith in that country. Sharia even has a place for Jews and Christians to have their own representitives in parliament....and Iran follows that too.

That is one thing Iran has going for it, it actually does try and follow Sharia law to the best of their ability.So even though it is not perfect, it is an excellent model for how to follow sharia instead of secular laws.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by grandmakdw

 

Alright. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here. Although with you making statements like "women in islam promising their husbands unlimited rape for all eternity", I'm not sure why. You've obviously made up your mind, and I'm sorry, it does appear like baiting.
.

Please find this where you say I said this and quote it.

I went back and found this:
To get the heart of a man who is not in a muslim country one has to get the heart of his true love, or promise him unlimited rape for eternity.

Ok I was wrong about unlimited rape, and I wasn't referring to a Muslim women. I was referring to what the Hadith calls houris - or the female beings (who were never women on earth) created in paradise for the sexual pleasure of men, they are heavenly beings who have willing sex with Muslim men and each time their hymen is broken it regrows. So this isn't rape, you are correct. I should have said promise him unlimited virginal sex for eternity.

I was trying to say that in many religions, Christianity, Jewish, Wicca that I know of for certain. The majority of followers are women, and it is women who try to reach the hearts of their true loves to bring them into the religion. So a non-muslim man who want to convert may do so of his own free will, but if his wife or true love converts first then he is much more likely to convert. That is the way it is in many religions.

I should have separated the two concepts rather than combining them in one sentence.

reply to post by grandmakdw

Originally posted by grandmakdw
Ok I was wrong about unlimited rape, and I wasn't referring to a Muslim women. I was referring to what the Hadith calls houris - or the female beings (who were never women on earth) created in paradise for the sexual pleasure of men, they are heavenly beings who have willing sex with Muslim men and each time their hymen is broken it regrows. So this isn't rape, you are correct. I should have said promise him unlimited virginal sex for eternity.

I'm sorry, you've fallen prey to another misconception and incorrect understanding. It isn't a female being. It is a companion (could be either male or female, the term is gender neutral) with "beautiful gaze", and according to the Quran will be paired with the inhabitants (again, gender neutral term) of heaven. That they have sexual relations, I don't know, possibly, probably, it depends on the person, I guess, but there is nothing about "created for sexual pleasure of men" or "every time their hymen is broken it regrows", even in the authentic hadith.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

The taliban cannot even read the Quran in order to deduce what sharia law is, let alone enforce it. They are simply enforcing what they think it might be according to what the extremist wahabbi teachers say it should be. But have any of them read text? Most have not, because most cannot.

I have never read the book you speak of, although I know in Saudia women do not have rights, or what they have is very little. But this is not in accordance with Islam. The country itself does not even make the claim to be a country run according to Islam either, but one run according to the will of the monarchy.

Interesting point. The books (by Jean Sassoon) are supposedly the biography of a Saudi Arabian princess who's frustrated with the rights of women in her country. What I find especially worth noting is that she defends Islam, and repeatedly accuses the culture for the plight of women, and not the religion. I find that very telling. Obviously she is happy in her faith.

It's hard for us westerners to understand the close ties between the secular government and religion that exists in some countries; it's completely alien to how we view the world. Which is why I think these open and respectful dialogues are so important.

Since its been brought up, can you help me understand the concept of 72 virgins? Do women get male virgins, or is this purely a male reward (honestly, I'm not sure what I would do with 72 male virgins. I must be getting old)?

Thank you again.

reply to post by smyleegrl


The virgins are the hourin which have been discussed above. Yes women get them too, they are "purified spouses (or mates)" everyone in jannah gets one (or more than one)... they are either genderless or possibly simply either male or female

but there is no specified amount one may have...or even necessarily what they might do or why we have them... ahadith which speaks on them specifically are usually very weak and unreliable...

They are supposed to be 60 cubits in height though!

reply to post by babloyi


everyone will have two wives from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh." (Book #54, Hadith #476)
this portion of the Hadith specifies females.

But the Quran does make it clear both sexes get them:
reclining on couches [of happiness] ranged in rows!” And [in that paradise] We shall mate them with companions pure, most beautiful of eye [Chapter (Surah) At-Tur (The Mount)(52):20][32]

However, it seems that it is the wives who will be remade into virgins:
"And [with them will be their] spouses, raised high: for, behold, We shall have brought them into being in a life renewed, having resurrected them as virgins [Chapter (Surah) Al-Waqi'a (The Event)(56):34-36][45]

also in the Hadith:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall." (Book #55, Hadith #544)

reply to post by grandmakdw

See, this is what I meant about understanding the Hadith properly and making sure to understand all the alternates. You can't just point to any single Hadith and say "This is absolutely and totally correct in and of itself". You have to understand the context, the meaning, the original arabic, the authenticity of the transmission, etc.

The word used isn't "wives", the simplest way to put it is a plural "spouses". The problem is that if you just plug it into a translator like google translate, you might get the translation "two wives", but that ignores loads of classical arabic rules some specifically used in the Quran. It uses this for things that are grouped in pairs, but are not the same. For example the phrase "prayers of the two fathers" would actually mean mother and father, or "the two Marwas" would actually refer to two mountains in Mecca, Safa and Marwa. I know this sounds like a cop-out, but if you are able to get your hand on Johnathan Rodgers "A Grammar of Classical Arabic", you'll see it addresses this exact issue.

Originally posted by grandmakdw
However, it seems that it is the wives who will be remade into virgins:
"And [with them will be their] spouses, raised high: for, behold, We shall have brought them into being in a life renewed, having resurrected them as virgins [Chapter (Surah) Al-Waqi'a (The Event)(56):34-36][45]

Everyone, not just wives, will be reborn in youthfulness. I'm pretty sure biologically that would mean they are virgins.

PS: When quoting Hadith, it is general practice to reference the name of the book collection as well as the book itself. Otherwise it'd be like me telling you that the meaning is on page 374 of the dictionary, but not mentioning which dictionary. For your reference, both the hadith you quoted were from Sahih Bukhari.

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reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Well, its the same for christians.
The children of a christian father will be born christian... UNTIL they make their personal choice to convert to a different religion or become atheist

Absolutely wrong. We may teach them about Yeshua/YHWH but we never take their choice away, we may warn them of the consequence but that is their decision then so be it, we do not put them to death for going over the fence or imprison them or torture them. You cannot force someone to accept the Messiah they must come to him of their own will or it will not be binding. Yeshua's way has never been to force those to come to him, he leaves the decision to them. It is not love if it is forced onto them and he wants your love enough that he allowed himself to be nailed to a cross and suffer humility and shame to obtain it.

From the Quran:
You said the Quran does not command killing of non-believers but I found what turned out to be just a few verses out of many commanding killing of non-believers:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

You also said the Quran does not command killing of those who leave the faith:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

How can these have peaceful meanings, or freedom of religion, or respect for people in general?

reply to post by grandmakdw

Originally posted by grandmakdw
You said the Quran does not command killing of non-believers but I found what turned out to be just a few verses out of many commanding killing of non-believers

You? Who said? Did OpinionatedB say? Did I say? I see no such statement anywhere. I mean it is true, you can't kill a non-muslim purely for the reason of being a non-muslim, but you're the first one to bring it up in this thread. I didn't say it. OpinionatedB talked about forced conversions, but no mention of killing anyone. RimDaas didn't say this. I haven't really gone past the last 2-3 pages, but I see no one who mentioned this at all.
And it makes sense, as the topic is completely unrelated to the top you started, i.e. why a woman would convert to Islam. Since you are the starter of this thread, and you are the one who is taking it off course, you'll understand why people keep laying accusations of "baiting" on you.

And the quranic quotes you provided don't do much to allay these claims. Because there is no way you got them from anywhere other than an anti-islam website, considering that they've been taken completely out of context in an attempt to misrepresent their meaning.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Whichever anti-islam website you got this quote from seems to have cut off the first part of the line. The part that says "Remember your Lord inspired the angels (saying):", which completely throws the interpretation of "The Quran commands muslims to kill non-believers". And if you read the passage from the start of the surah (it is only 11 lines, after all, but those wouldn't have been included in the anti-islam site), you'll see it is talking about the occasion of a specific battle that took place, where the muslims were hugely outnumbered, and prayed to God to save them, and according to the Quran, God sent angels to help them in the battle to "cast terrori into the hearts..." and so on.

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction."

No commandment to kill non-muslims here, sorry, again, whichever site you got these from is trying to twist the meanings. This is a verse in a passage that is telling the story of Noah and the flood.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Same as above, with the context totally removed, someone is attempting to deceive you. It was talking about a group in the early days of Medinah, who ingrained themselves into the muslim community, then left en masse along with all the strategic and inside information about how to defeat the muslims. They aren't being commanded to kill because they left faith (it doesn't even say they were of the faith in the first place), they were commanded to be killed because they became renegades. And again, if the very next line had been included (4:90), you'd see it says "except those who join a group with which you have peace, or those who do not wish to fight you, or those whose hearts restrain them from fighting their own people", which makes it very obvious what is being talked about, which is probably why it was left out again, from wherever you got these quotes.

I am sorry I'm being so terse, I do not mean to be rude. It is just from my own experiences here. People start up some thread which is a thinly veiled version of "Islam is bad!", under the guise of scientific questioning or women's rights or some specific question of morality, and while the facade stays for maybe a page or two, it very soon descends into general bashing of Islam on all fronts, using one of the numerous "list of evil verses" websites where verses are provided trimmed, twisted and out of context in an attempt to silence any opposition through dumping hundreds of quotes (and which human being in the real world, with a job or education, muslim or not, could spend their entire day, going one by one to all these verses to see if it is accurate or not?) and occasionally even constant spamming.

That you brought up "killing non-muslims" in a thread about women's rights in Islam, when I can't find anyone you could have been conceivably been responding to (since no one in the last 2-3 pages, or possibly even the whole thread spoke on this topic) is what put more suspicion on your thread, which was already somewhat suspicious from the start.

Of course, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to discuss Islam and point out things that they find inaccurate or improper or immoral. That would be an interesting discussion! But that rarely ever happens here. Instead we have a thread where the OP posts misunderstood or outright false and derogatory statements on Islam (which I admit they could have conceivably have said in ignorance), but then followed by "Haha! I was right!" less than 15 minutes later, and after the first muslim responses, start a cherry-picked barrage of out-of-context and twisted and edited quotes, post after post, not even caring for the original topic anymore.

Is your next post going to be another barrage of these twisted and out-of-context quotes? If yes, are they going to be on the topic that you yourself started? In that case, if you don't mind, please take every verse you copy out of these websites, check it up in any one of the many online quran translations, and read it in context first.

If you want to get back on topic, perhaps the following information might interest you:

Islam is the first of the Abrahamic religions (and probably one of the few religions overall) that actually puts a limit on polygyny, and only actually allows more than 1 wife in case of widows or orphans and if they can all be treated equally. Common christian understanding today (and for a long while now) has of course prohibited polygyny, but this isn't explicitly stated in their scriptures, and many christians originally were polygamous, and some sects even today are.

Islam is the first Abrahamic religion (and probably one of the few religions overall) that explicitly gives a woman the right to inherit, to divorce, to own property, etc. It necessitated that marriage was not a "status" or a signing over of women to men as property, but rather a contract, that required the consent of both parties.

Islam is first Abrahamic religion (and probably one of the few of the older ones) that explicitly states that women are equal to men. It does have pre-set roles in the nuclear family model, and understands that they are not the SAME as men, but they are equal.

Islam put an end to the rampant female infanticide that occurred in pre-islamic arabia (which unfortunately continues today in places like India and China, where people want male offspring rather than female).

I'm not a Muslim, but one of my best friends is.
I will tell you her story, as she has told me and I have witnessed.

My friend was non-religious growing up. I don't think she even believed in any gods (or at least she didn't think she did.) Her family was not religious.

At the age of 21 or so, she met a man and fell in love with him. I know and like him. He's a bit immature, but he is a good person. He is a Muslim, born and raised in the middle east but in a more "liberal" country with mixed religions (Islam being predominatant).

As friends and partners do, they discussed matters and she took an interest in his religion. She converted and they got married. She later readily admits that she did not whole-heartedly believe when they first got together, but it grew on her.

When asked all the questions one asks of a Muslim woman.. she answers honestly.
She says there are good and bad people of all religions. She says in Islam, men and women have different roles, but she believes that they are both important roles, both deserving of respect.

She abhorrs violence against women. She works a 9-5. She eats non-halal food when she can't get halal meat.
She wears a hijab in public, but that wasn't always the case at first. She wants to work up to a niqab. WANTS to.

She was a party animal when she was young. While people now look at her and say "Muslim".. they no longer judge her by skimpy clothes and alcohol binges, but by who she is as a person.
She feels respected. She is tired of people asking her why she's a Muslim. "Why?", she says, "because I believe in Allah."

I know her and all of the her friends who are Muslims, and they are all good people.

Is her marriage perfect? No. He was raised to believe that women are to do most of the child-rearing and housework, and its something they fight about. His male cousins, also Muslims, help with these things though. Its not just an Islamic thing... how many non-Muslim men were raised the same?

I'm an athiest. I do not agree with her on religious matters, not even a little. But I love her. She doesn't try to convert me. I don't tell her to stop practicing.