The Reason Some Americans Hate Immigrants...it's not because they are "illegal"

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

If an American citizen commits a crime...do we strip them of citizenshipe and deport them? Or do we have them server their punishment...and then give them another shot???

depends on the crime and yes it does happen.
felons are frequently 'stripped' of several of their citizenship rights, some indefinitely.
some, over the years have had their citizenship revoked.
that is too general a question to garner a specific answer.

Why should it be different with immigrants???

dunno, why should it be ???
they've broken the laws and should be punished accordingly, not granted a "stay".

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
A few things.

1) They are willing to be exploited; they will work for less than minimum wage.

They also, as you pointed out, work harder. They are willing to put in an 80+hour work week. Most Americans are not. So, couple the fact that they have a strong work ethic with being able to pay them less, and you have an ideal candidate for low end labor.

2) They work under the table/unofficially, meaning they don't pay taxes on what they make.

3) They not only take low end jobs, but can perform many trade jobs as well.

Again, they are willing to charge less than most Americans and they will likely work around paying taxes on the money they earn.

It's not a matter of jealousy or who's the harder worker, but a matter of whether it's okay for them to take work from us when they are here illegally. Outsourcing has already cost us many jobs and it's not so different from what's happening here. Jobs in America that could potentially go to Americans, regardless of whether they are wanted or not, are being given to non-Americans because they are willing to work for less money.

And again...you are placing all the blame on the worker and not the ones employing them....why is that???

And yes...you got it exactly right...they are out working Americans...which is why some Americans hate them...because they know they can't compete.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

As a leftist how do you feel about illegal immigrants negating workers rights?

I think that is why we need to push for making it extremely easy to enter the country legally and/or getting a work permit along with passing laws that punish employers so much for breaking labor laws that they wouldn't dare hire an illegal or exploit them by paying them less or working them to death.

Well employers wrote the law and influence congress to pass them so that they can make higher profits.. They are above the law unfortunately so this is why it has to be stopped at the individual level.....

Sure these big wigs are the boogey men too but the blame is equal because the illegal immigrants are knowingly breaking the law on a individual level much like a thief,...

You can't place the blame on the guys upstairs they share equal amount of the blame.. They both are exploiting America at the expensive of it's people non is more guilty than the other.....

reply to post by TheRedneck

OK, I am going to attempt to answer this... again... in a way you can understand. If you don't get it this time, it simply means you either do get it and don't want to admit it, you simply cannot grasp reality, or you are here just stirring a pot of hatred.

Starting off with a false dichotomy...awesome.

Of course...the possibility that you are just flat out wrong isn't a valid option in your mind...is it???

If I approach an employer and agree to work for less than the Federal Minimum Wage, as set forth in the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 as amended (last amendment May 2011), I am actually guilty of conspiracy to violate US Labor Law. Is it specified in the FLSA? No. Is it typically charged? No. But it is a charge that has legal precedence to be made. But even beyond that, if my employer is discovered paying me less than minimum wage, they will be penalized. Of course, if I am already afraid of legal intervention because I am subject to deportation, there's not a lot of risk that I will decide to rebel and turn them in.

And yet again...you have failed to show that it is illegal for a worker to work for less than minimum wage.

Let me re-quote part of what you said.

Is it specified in the FLSA? No. Is it typically charged? No.

It's not in the law...from my knowledge it has never been charged....you can't prove that it has been charged....and yet you claim I am the one with the problem dealing in reality

I can go work as a 1099 at any construction site for anything they want to pay me...I won't be charged a damn thing...I can even report it to the IRS....they won't care.

So yes...every American has the ability to go work for the same wages "illegals" are working for....it's not illegal....Americans just won't do it.

It's too hard of work for too little money for them...in short...there is not enough motivation for them to get off their lazy asses for that type of work.

I cannot get a job unless I find an employer to hire me. That is an impossibility by definition. So the minimum wage laws, along with other costs of employment which operate similarly, does preclude me from getting a job at less than minimum wage by making it extremely risky for an employer to hire me.

1099.

You are supposed to be a smart man...right...so I'm sure you know what that means.

We are not discussing self-employment; we are discussing jobs.

Last time I checked...day laborers and field workers are more "self employed" than having a "job".

Reagan signed the amnesty bill that both provided for amnesty and for a secure border, the details to be submitted later. CONGRESS LIED ABOUT SECURING THE BORDER! So now I want my border secured first! If you want to call that entitlement, racism, arrogance, impossible, or a peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwich, fine. I will not give on this point.

It doesn't matter if you give or not...it's not gonna happen.

Originally posted by BobM88
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

Very true, some have a much better work ethic.

Many have a much better work ethic.

And I honestly think this is the real reason some people hate them...they know they can't compete with that type of work ethic...so they hate them for it.

I am an international student in the USA who has already stayed here for 6-7 years and here is my take on the immigration issue:

1. illegal immigration is definitely bad, not only does it drain resources for the otherwise highly trained and desirable legal immigrant, it also sends the wrong message by rewarding those who break the law.
it's common to see many biographies about successful individuals who proudly say that his/her parents jumped the fence and through hard work he/she achieved success. I understand some would be proud of the fact that their parents jumped the fence because it shows how they started from the very low and achieved success. However, you are still overlooking the fact that to achieve that success, laws were broken. This is definitely not a message any government or society should ever want to spread.

2. political correctness is ruining the common sense. To me it's just absurd that illegal immigrants get social benefits. Sometimes it seems that it would be better for me if I stopped paying my 40k a year tuition and just become an illegal immigrant, I haven't done that because of my professional goals but it just shows you how broken the system is.
I remember seeing somewhere an article about the "this is america, speak English" signs in restaurants. I admit that it is of poor taste to hang them on public businesses like restaurants but what really struck me was that the article and comments below were all very quick to call the shop owners racist, biggots, rednecks etc. etc.
last time I checked english is the official language here and I really don't see anything wrong with wanting to keep it that way, which takes me to my third point.

3. Assimilation makes a huge difference. If immigrants assimilated, there would be no issue with language because everyone would be talking english. Language is a very important part of a culture, because it shows its roots and history. I won't go into the more scientific aspect of how what language you speak influences how your thought process works. Nonetheless, its clear keeping a language of a nation is very important for historic, cultural and overall national pride aspects.
Assimilation among illegal immigrants is very low and one of the reasons is that they just can't assimilate. they here illegally therefore they have to hang together

I have some more points but I feel like my post is getting too long. I will finish my post by saying what I think should be done.

the government should absolutely not allow illegal immigration but put in place an immigration stance were needed labor can still be fulfilled and make legal immigration the only type of immigration

long post I know, if you don't care to read everything just read the last paragraph

Originally posted by Believer101

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by DaMod

 

Why does it bother you so much???

Maybe it's because I got refused at a majority of jobs, McDonalds and the like, because I don't speak Spanish. Maybe it's because this is AMERICA and not Mexico.

edit on 18/6/2012 by Believer101 because: (no reason given)

Speaking a second language is a job skill.

Maybe you should better yourself by learning more skills and then maybe you could get that job.

If you can't provide the services...then you don't deserve the job....sorry.

If i snuck into an illegal country and they paid me triple than what i use to get, i would work my ass off too.... Its either that or hustle drugs/weapons, get caught n get deported or jail, or end up dead... I have a few illegal friends, i dont hate em, but they dont deserve any praise

Here is one of the reasons I don't like illegal aliens. Yes, I know, legal immigrants and citizens kill too...but these don't have to happen, if the borders were secure.

www.immigrationshumancost.org...

My fix to the problem.

1. Fine employers $50,000 per illegal hired (first offense). $250,000 and 10 years in prison for each violation after that.
2. K-12 education for Citizens and LEGAL immigrants ONLY!
3. Treat emergencies at the hospital...then deport if patient is here illegally.
4. Modify the 14th Amendment to require ONE parent be a Citizen before birthright citizenship is granted to the child.
5. Bring the troops home from Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. and put them on the border. Shoot to kill.

Edit: My wife is a LEGAL immigrant to the U.S. Her and I did EVERYTHING within the law, and it's a slap in our face. While we waited NINE MONTHS for the Nebraska Service Center to process her Visa, she was no allowed to leave her country. On top of that, we've spent a lot of money doing it right. That scumbag in the White House owes us a refund. I don't hate immigrants. I hate ILLEGAL immigrants.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Where are you expected to speak Spanish

oooooh, i'll answer that one, it doesn't get any more recent than Fathers Day. (emphasis mine)

personal disclosure: in this neighborhood, there are many immigrants who speak various native languages and very little if any, English. immediate neighbors (other half of duplex) are of spanish origin (don't know them well enough to say from where but that is irrelevant, see above statement) and although we've been neighbors for more than a year, we do not converse as they don't speak English y yo no hablo espanol.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

You don't define a group by the actions of a few

Really? But you define all Americans as lazy based on the actions of... a few you have met!

Yes...because the best place to hid is being an illegal in America

The best place to hide is somewhere you can't be found... like another country.

You do realize a lot of immigrants come from Central America...right???

Oh, by Jiminy you're right! But we don't have a border with Central America... they cross the Mexican border.

Trust me, try a map.

If an American citizen commits a crime...do we strip them of citizenshipe and deport them? Or do we have them server their punishment...and then give them another shot???

Why should it be different with immigrants???

Ahhhh, so here we finally get an admission of the truth! I knew you would get around to it sooner or later.

The answer is because there is a difference between citizens and non-citizens.

Now I know that goes against every fiber of your being, but it is the truth. Every country on the globe recognizes it. As a matter of fact, the US already stands alone as being the country that allows the most immigrants. Even more amazing, this country you seem to hate so much is one of the very few that will let someone become a citizen on a regular basis.

We added 743,715 citizens through the nationalization process in 2009, 619,913 in 2010, and 694,193 in 2011. In the last three years, that's around 2 million new citizens... legally! All of these new citizens have the same rights as you or I. Try to do that in Japan, or Mexico, or France, or Russia. It isn't even possible there!

Now why do you think this is? Why would anyone want to become a citizen if there is no advantage to being one?

Because there is an advantage. Because there is a difference. Whether you want to believe it or not, this country is not a walk-in diner; not everyone can get served. This is more like a private residence where you simply don't go if not allowed. And not just this country... every other country is like that, only the vast majority of them will never allow you to become a citizen.

(statistics from the Flow Report: April 2012 US Naturalizations)

No, you just dont' want to answer it because you know you are wrong.

I already did answer... not that I think you will be able to resist spinning it into some perverted double-speak.

You only get that "ingeritance" if your parents say you do...they could leave it all to charity if they wanted to and you don't have a damn thing to say about it.

It is not the law that you automatically get everything of your parents....please tell me you don't honestly believe that.

Wrong. Again.

In the absence of a will, inheritance goes first to spouses, then to children. Wills can override this, but there is a legal theory that holds that potential heirs still have the right to contest a will even. Now what was that you said above? Oh, yes:

You don't define a group by the actions of a few

So you do define laws by the exceptions rather than the rules, however.

You have the freedom to have the same opportunities...it's your choice not to seize them.

Are you still hung up on this?

Go read my last reply and try to understand it.

You are not entitled to have you "culture protected" by the Federal government

Actually, yes I do in a way. The American culture is defined by those "imaginary" lines you find so despicable. it is the Federal government's job, actually the President's job, to defend those borders per the US constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Source: www.usconstitution.net...

Apparently it is thought out enough to have you dodging and avoiding questions and for you to go for the personal insults.

Why is that...don't have any valid arguments???

Dodging?

More like exasperated... I swear this is like explaining quantum mechanics to a three-year-old sometimes.

I have plenty of valid arguments, and they are scattered throughout this thread. Unlike yours, mine are based in reality.

You just don't acknowledge them. That doesn't mean they cease to exist.

TheRedneck

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Last time I checked...day laborers and field workers are more "self employed" than having a "job".

unless that was an Acorn directive, you better check again cause the last day-labor i did, forwarded a W2 for taxes, not a 1099.

The OP couldn't be further from reality for me. I don't hate illegal immigrants because they work harder or because I'm racist. Here's the top reasons I hate illegal immigrants:

1) They break the law to come here and don't get punished. If I were to break the law, I would get punished.

2) They bring with them drugs, gangs, and violence.

3) They don't get raped by the government like I do, which leads me on to number 4.

4) They don't have to pay taxes (they are not contributing anything to society monetarily) but yet they leech off the system and in many cases are able to collect all sorts of benefits that I can't even get, even though I pay taxes and get raped by Uncle Sam!! Just recently they were able to collect 4 BILLION dollars in tax credits from the IRS - even though they've never paid taxes! See here: www.factcheck.org...

5) They can come and get free health care and get taken care of fast, but even though I work my ass off and pay taxes I have to pay out $700 a month for health insurance (self-employed) and have to wait months to get any treatment as I wait for the insurance companies to approve certain things.

6) They can to go to college for free, while me being a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen would have to pay $50,000+ for a 4 year degree at my local university! See www.freerepublic.com...

7) Unwillingness to adapt to the society they choose to join and learn English and adapt to our traditions and way of life. They come here expecting everything from America but don't even care about preserving the way America is that made it great. They want to turn it into their third world country part II.


Like I said, OP is far from reality. I have no problem at all with their desire to work or how hard they work. I would have no problem if they came here legally and worked the same way they do now, just legally and had to go through the s***t the rest of us legal citizens have to go through. But they will not do that, because they are just leeches that want handouts at the expense of maybe a little extra physical work or longer hours ( I would take that any day if it meant I didn't have to pay taxes and I got pretty much everything for free!!!!)

At my company we hire lots of LEGAL immigrants. Many of them from India, Bosnia, Cuba, Thailand, and Vietnam to name a few. They came here speaking no English. But they came legally, they learned English, they adapted to our society, and now they have a good paying job and are contributing to society. I have no problem with them and their hard to understand (but understandable) English. They are good and hard workers. And they did it the right way. These are the true hard workers. Not the illegals - they are scum. These people worked TEN TIMES HARDER because not only do they work as hard at their "job" that the illegals do, but they worked hard at immigrating, learning, adapting, and contributing.


As far as the age-old excuse of "well your ancestors came here illegally too!" Haha. Come on, that's old we've all heard that. My refute to that is, back when my ancestors came here there was no real government, there was no system for them to leech off of, there was no one paying taxes or dues for them to screw over and call sucker.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

I am going to bed after this post, but I want to answer one thing: the 1099.

IRS Form 1099 is not an employment form. A job, as in one that is paid by the hour on a regular basis for performing some task, requires a Form W-2. The 1099 is used to report business expense. This expense can be monies paid to a contractor, but it also covers other things. The one thing it does not, and can not, cover is wages. This is a direct violation of the IRS regulations (and no, I will not look them up for you; I'm going to bed!). Try to pay an employee using a 1099 and you will quickly find yourself up to your eyeballs in penalties and fines.

The difference is that an employee is directly supervised and is under continuous control of the employer. A contractor is not directly supervised by the contractee and is not under continuous supervision. Also, a contractor has the right to accept or refuse a particular task while an employee does not. An employee can be fired; a contractor cannot be fired, but can only be released from their contract.

Try to demand that the guy you are paying with a 1099 put in a full 8-hour day... go ahead. If he knows the law, you just bought yourself a whole mess of headache.

Now that we both know what a 1099 is, can you please stop changing the subject to suit your whim? it really is getting tiresome.

Good night.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Believer101

 

Where are you expected to speak Spanish

Lets see, Doctors offices where I was denied receptionist jobs because I didn't speak Spanish, McDonalds, Wendys, Burger King, Olive Garden. Hell, I was even denied a job as one of those damn tellemarketers because I didn't speak Spanish. I could go on, but what's the point? You're just going to flip everything I say anyways.

And they aren't the ones "putting Spanish" on everything...companies do it because they want their business...if you don't like it...take it up with those particular companies or boycott them.

They may not be the ones who decided to put it on there for marketing reasons, but damn did they make them because they don't have the decency to learn English. I mean, hell, this is America, right? We DO speak English here.

And oh no...they celebrate their holidays...good thing the Irish don't do that (st. patricks day)...or the germans (oktober fest)....or the french (mardi gras). But those damn Mexicans...celebrating Cinco De Mayo...you know...the day where all the white people go to Mexican restaurants and drink Margaritas and all the Mexicans have to work and serve them....damn them.

You're right, they're not the only ones. And you know what? I hate all those "holidays" because I can. I don't even celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, or any other holiday. They're all about selling out to companies and giving them money. Money that I need because, unlike Illegal Immigrants, I have to pay rent, taxes, insurance, and various other things just to live here.

Those children are your fellow American citizens...show some respect for you fellow countrymen :@@

If they have papers and are in fact, American Citizens, then yes I will show them respect. Those that I will NOT show respect to are their Illegal parents that are sucking our country dry by having them to get free money.

Demonize, Demonize, Demonize.

Hate, Hate, Hate.

You're right, I will demonize those that deserve to be demonized. I will hate those that deserve to be hated.

And please tell me...the person who pushed you down at Walmart

....how did you know he was an illegal immigrant???

I swear...these people must wear signs that I just don't see...because you guys seem to be able to pick out an "illegal" just by looking at them.

Now, here you are skewing what I said to make yourself seem smart. Tell me, where exactly did I say that that man was Illegal? Please, show me EXACTLY where I said that. Because I viewed my post again after you skewed what I said, and this is what I said:

I got shoved down in Walmart today by a Mexican man all because I was "in his way" while grabbing some Ranch Dressing from the shelf.

Now, please point out where I said he was Illegal, because I do not see it anywhere.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Originally posted by Believer101

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by DaMod

 

Why does it bother you so much???

Maybe it's because I got refused at a majority of jobs, McDonalds and the like, because I don't speak Spanish. Maybe it's because this is AMERICA and not Mexico.

edit on 18/6/2012 by Believer101 because: (no reason given)

Speaking a second language is a job skill.

Maybe you should better yourself by learning more skills and then maybe you could get that job.

If you can't provide the services...then you don't deserve the job....sorry.

Excuse me? No, now speaking Spanish is a requirement for most jobs, not a job skill. Job skills are the ability to answer a phone, send a fax, use a computer, put a bun on a burger, etc etc etc.

I've gone to college 3 times. I have a Masters and Bachelors Degree, and an Associates of Occupational Studies Degree in Massage Therapy. Maybe you should learn a little more about someone before you demean them over something you know nothing about. Maybe you should stop demeaning others for their opinions. Maybe you should stop skewing what people say in order to fit what you believe.

If you can't speak English fluently, GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY.

Call me racist, but I find it ironic that people can go to America from a country/region with a billion+ population and claim they are a minority... Yes I get it they might be a minority in America, but at the rate Obama is going that probably won't be the case in a few years. Look up the statistics, the only reason the population is growing is because of the influx of immigrants. It's only a matter of time.

reply to post by FlyersFan


How in the world do they cost YOU money if you don't even feel it coming out of your pocket? .. That's all I have to say.

Op is delusional and is living in fantasy land. . .

The only reason people hire wet-backs is because the work for CHEAPER not better, faster or any other bull you wish to imply.

Illegals are scabs that diminish family wages across the board of many different scopes of work.