Water found on the sun

Massive speculation. This is the problem with scientific media outlets. Just because the sun spots seem cooler doesn't mean there is water(steam) per'se. Inferred is not 100% conclusive and a spectroscopy cannot detect water on(in) the sun.


What a misleading paper.

Originally posted by bokonon2010
It is not a hoax, but rather the phenomena for scientific studies.

National Geographic News

Published June 13, 2011 - Andrew Fazekas

Seven hundred and fifty light-years from Earth, a young, sunlike star has been found with jets that blast epic quantities of water into interstellar space, shooting out droplets that move faster than a speeding bullet.

The discovery suggests that protostars may be seeding the universe with water. These stellar embryos shoot jets of material from their north and south poles as their growth is fed by infalling dust that circles the bodies in vast disks.

"If we picture these jets as giant hoses and the water droplets as bullets, the amount shooting out equals a hundred million times the water flowing through the Amazon River every second," said Lars Kristensen, a postdoctoral astronomer at Leiden University in the Netherlands.

"We are talking about velocities reaching 200,000 kilometers [124,000 miles] per hour, which is about 80 times faster than bullets flying out of a machine gun," said Kristensen, lead author of the new study detailing the discovery, which has been accepted for publication in the journal Astronomy & Astrophysics.

(Related: "Dimmest Stars in Universe Spotted?")

Water Vanishes, Only to Reappear

Located in the northern constellation Perseus, the protostar is no more than a hundred thousand years old and remains swaddled in a large cloud—gas and dust from which the star was born.

Using an infrared instrument on the European Space Agency's Herschel Space Observatory, researchers were able to peer through the cloud and detect telltale light signatures of hydrogen and oxygen atoms—the building blocks of water—moving on and around the star.

After tracing the paths of these atoms, the team concluded that water forms on the star, where temperatures are a few thousand degrees Celsius. But once the droplets enter the outward-spewing jets of gas, 180,000-degree-Fahrenheit (100,000-degree-Celsius) temperatures blast the water back into gaseous form.

Once the hot gases hit the much cooler surrounding material—at about 5,000 times the distance from the sun to Earth—they decelerate, creating a shock front where the gases cool down rapidly, condense, and reform as water, Kristensen said.

(Related: "Coldest Star Found—No Hotter Than Fresh Coffee.")

Stellar Sprinkler Nourishes Galactic "Garden"

What's really exciting about the discovery is that it appears to be a stellar rite of passage, the researchers say, which may shed new light on the earliest stages of our own sun's life—and how water fits into that picture.

"We are only now beginning to understand that sunlike stars probably all undergo a very energetic phase when they are young," Kristensen said. "It's at this point in their lives when they spew out a lot of high-velocity material—part of which we now know is water."

Like a celestial sprinkler system, the star may be enriching the interstellar medium—thin gases that float in the voids between stars. And because the hydrogen and oxygen in water are key components of the dusty disks in which stars form, such protostar sprinklers may be encouraging the growth of further stars, the study says.

(Related: "Supersonic 'Hail' Seeds Star Systems With Water.")

The water-jet phenomenon seen in Perseus is "probably a short-lived phase all protostars go through," Kristensen said.

"But if we have enough of these sprinklers going off throughout the galaxy—this starts to become interesting on many levels."

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Water is probably the most complex non-organic substance.

This is a theory

Originally posted by Hawking
So parts of these sunspots are less than 100C or 212F?


Really?

Yeah, I'm finding this a liiiiiittle hard to believe. Even if the sun spots are cooler then the sun itself, I don't see how they could be cool enough to hold water. Anouth thing, what happens or where does the water go or come from when the sun spot disappears/reappears?

The first thing i thought was ''how the hell is that possible?''.........and that is still my thought.

Originally posted by Chance321

Originally posted by Hawking
So parts of these sunspots are less than 100C or 212F?


Really?

Yeah, I'm finding this a liiiiiittle hard to believe. Even if the sun spots are cooler then the sun itself, I don't see how they could be cool enough to hold water. Anouth thing, what happens or where does the water go or come from when the sun spot disappears/reappears?

To be clear (and perhaps you ARE clear on this, but for others who might not be) it's not "liquid water" but water vapor that is mentioned in the OP's article.

The question still remains is that are sunspots cool enough for H2O (in any form) to exist, or would the Sun's energy be enough to split the H2O into elemental hydrogen and oxygen?

Keep in mind that when you boil liquid water to create steam, it still remains as H2O, but just in a gaseous form rather than a liquid form. Boiling does not split the H2O molecule into its component elements. It takes more energy to do that.

Water can be split into its component hydrogen and oxygen using more energetic means than simply boiling it, such as electrolysis. Water molecules can also be split if enough heat is applied (a lot more than boiling), through a process known as thermolysis. The temperature at which thermolysis will split water into hydrogen and oxygen is around 1500°C . The coolest sunspots are thought to be about 2700 °C, which is quite hotter than the point that water thermolizes into elemental hydrogen an oxygen.

Maybe (if these observations are accurate -- which is still in doubt) some unknown process is keeping the hydrogen and oxygen from going their separate ways under the intense heat? I'm not saying some unknown process is definitely happening, but who knows?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Right, but I still can not believe that the sunspots would be cool enough to (sorry can't think of the word I'm looking for so I'll just bull through it) produce an enviroment for water/water vapor.
Another thought too, wouldn't the winds/currents whatever on the sun be to strong for something like this to form?

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by Chance321

Originally posted by Hawking
So parts of these sunspots are less than 100C or 212F?


Really?

Yeah, I'm finding this a liiiiiittle hard to believe. Even if the sun spots are cooler then the sun itself, I don't see how they could be cool enough to hold water. Anouth thing, what happens or where does the water go or come from when the sun spot disappears/reappears?

To be clear (and perhaps you ARE clear on this, but for others who might not be) it's not "liquid water" but water vapor that is mentioned in the OP's article.

The question still remains is that are sunspots cool enough for H2O (in any form) to exist, or would the Sun's energy be enough to split the H2O into elemental hydrogen and oxygen?

Keep in mind that when you boil liquid water to create steam, it still remains as H2O, but just in a gaseous form rather than a liquid form. Boiling does not split the H2O molecule into its component elements. It takes more energy to do that.

Water can be split into its component hydrogen and oxygen using more energetic means than simply boiling it, such as electrolysis. Water molecules can also be split if enough heat is applied (a lot more than boiling), through a process known as thermolysis. The temperature at which thermolysis will split water into hydrogen and oxygen is around 1500°C . The coolest sunspots are thought to be about 2700 °C, which is quite hotter than the point that water thermolizes into elemental hydrogen an oxygen.

Maybe (if these observations are accurate -- which is still in doubt) some unknown process is keeping the hydrogen and oxygen from going their separate ways under the intense heat? I'm not saying some unknown process is definitely happening, but who knows?

edit on 6/18/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

You're stretching this theory to its limit,,,


Can you tell us where/how water-vapor comes from?

It doesn't matter how cold the spots are. What matters is how "on our sun" does H2O arrive in sun spots.? Which is why its so hard to believe this document is even accurate. Another pointless theory.

reply to post by maxella1

Reminds me of the cold sun theory.
www.luisprada.com...

...Astronomers Lloyd Wallace, William Livingston and Kenneth Hinkle at the National Solar Observatory in Tucson, Arizona worked with collaborators to obtain infrared spectra that proved that water molecules could exist in the umbral regions of some sunspots.

I'm always amazed at this kind of science that can do this yet we STILL have no pictures of alien life form or UFO's. My common sense says it's out there but when I see pics of other universes and hear of this type of research, I just gotta wonder.

On topic, I DO believe H2o exists in some form on/around the sun, it makes sense. Unless the dark spots are another type of element which they whould also be able to identify......right?

Originally posted by GiodanoBruno
You're stretching this theory to its limit,,,


Can you tell us where/how water-vapor comes from?

It doesn't matter how cold the spots are. What matters is how "on our sun" does H2O arrive in sun spots.? Which is why its so hard to believe this document is even accurate. Another pointless theory.

I'm not stretching anything. All I said was "IF the observations are correct". I quite clearly said that (to our knowledge) H2O would be split into hydrogen and oxygen at 1500°C, and sunspots are over 2500°C, and that if there really was water there, then a yet-unknown process is keeping it from being split into it's elemental components.

If a yet-unknown process is keeping that water molecule intact above 1500°C, then perhaps a yet-unknown process allowed the water to get there in the first place. Who knows? This might be bunk, but the data in the OP that says water exists is something that needs to be validated or invalidated.

Before we say "it is impossible for H2O to be there, so their data indicating the presence of water MUST be incorrect", let's first check their data to see if the water was really there or not.

Originally posted by Crabmeat
Gawsh... It sounds like a complete farce to me.

The sun's been burning for MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years.

It doesn't matter how much water was on the sun originally, it wouldn't last the first 10 earth years.

Also, I wasn't aware that the sun had plants growing on it to create the oxygen necessary for water.

Come on guys, where are your heads.

Where is yours? First off, the sun has been burning for billions of years. Not just "MILLIONS and MILLIONS". Also, Do you know how many ice based asteroids and comets hit the sun on a monthly basis? If you had read the article at all, you would know that the water is in vapor form, not solid. Your post is full of ignorance.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by GiodanoBruno
You're stretching this theory to its limit,,,


Can you tell us where/how water-vapor comes from?

It doesn't matter how cold the spots are. What matters is how "on our sun" does H2O arrive in sun spots.? Which is why its so hard to believe this document is even accurate. Another pointless theory.

I'm not stretching anything. All I said was "IF the observations are correct". I quite clearly said that (to our knowledge) H2O would be split into hydrogen and oxygen at 1500°C, and sunspots are over 2500°C, and that if there really was water there, then a yet-unknown process is keeping it from being split into it's elemental components.

If a yet-unknown process is keeping that water molecule intact above 1500°C, then perhaps a yet-unknown process allowed the water to get there in the first place. Who knows? This might be bunk, but the data in the OP that says water exists is something that needs to be validated or invalidated.

Before we say "it is impossible for H2O to be there, so their data indicating the presence of water MUST be incorrect", let's first check their data to see if the water was really there or not.

edit on 6/18/2012 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

I propose Nasa send the pathfinder to investigate this.

Originally posted by Ben81
Water and Fire dont mix

Water can turn off any fire
fire can vaporise to dust any water

Never though i would see such title
it is so impossible that even the word impossible dont explain how much it is impossible

Great scientific data you have there. May as well close this thread, this guy's got it!

I'm having trouble with this as well. I thought water would of evaporated, the sun being as hot as it is, with no atmosphere couldn't contain water or water particles. Water should not be able to go near the sun, just look what happens here on Earth a great distance away from the sun, regaurding water evaporation.

Are they trying to say the surface temp is much cooler? That would definately back up the global warming people who claim the sun has no impact on heating and cooling of the Earth (which isn't true). Once we cross the theshold of Earth self generating heat, then they can push for carbon taxes.

I'm really speculating lol.

I really would like to know how they know that, who went to the sun and brought back the water? (This is a joke)

I love how everybody here is IGNORING the pressure difference comparing earth and sun

reply to post by kat2684

The article in the OP talked about water VAPOR, not liquid water. Water vapor and liquid water are still H2O.

However, as I mentioned above, through a process known as "thermolysis", even molecules of water vapor would be split into their component hydrogen and oxygen atoms (two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom) at temperatures above 1500°C, and sunspots are 2700°C at their coolest.

Vaporizing liquid water (such as by boiling it) until you get water vapor still gives you water (H2O), but thermolysis will give you hydrogen and oxygen instead of water.

Originally posted by mileysubet
I love how everybody here is IGNORING the pressure difference comparing earth and sun

Yeah -- but the heat should still be enough to split the molecule. Heating water to 1500°C should split it into hydrogen and oxygen, and the pressures on the surface of the sun should not be enough to keep the hydrogen and oxygen atoms fused together as H2O.

I realize that high pressure (like a kitchen pressure cooker) can keep superheated water from becoming vapor, but that is a totally different thing than saying how pressure can keep the atoms bonded with each other.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Thank you for the reply.

I don't think I was reading the OP quite right, and thanks for breaking that down. I definately need to do a bit more reading up on the the whole subject.


So thanks again for your reply

I'd rather believe there is steam on the sun than that water molecules disassociate at around 3200 K,

How is that suppose to override the bond anyways?

I guess I need to go look it up...

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I'd rather believe there is steam on the sun than that water molecules disassociate at around 3200 K,

How is that suppose to override the bond anyways?

I guess I need to go look it up...

edit on 18-6-2012 by muzzleflash because: (no reason given)

Well, the bond between the hydrogen and oxygen in water can be broken by electrolysis using a battery and some wires (or a couple of thumbtacks) as seen in this video:


That's electrolysis, which is not happening on the Sun, but it shows that the chemical bonds can be separated relatively easily by introducing energy. If the energy intordiced is heat energy -- and that energy as heat is great enough (i.e., hot enough) then that heat energy can also break the chemical bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen. That is called "thermal decomposition" of "thermolysis".

However, the more I read about Thermolysis of water, I found that not ALL water is split into it's constituent elements by this process. At 1500°C, only a small portion of water is split. At 3000°C, only about 50% is split. That means that some water molecules may stay intact at temperatures of a sunspot. However, that doesn't explain where that water goes when the sunspot disappears, and where the water came from when a new sunspot forms.

The splitting of water using heat is of commercial interest due to the demand for a cost-effective way of producing hydrogen on a large scale (large-scale electrolysis is not cost-effective). Some processes use chemicals as a catalyst along with heat to more efficiently break the chemical bond of water.

This is called a Thermochemical process:
en.wikipedia.org...