BREAKING: US enlists Britain's help to stop ship 'carrying Russian attack helicopters' to Syria

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
reply to post by stanguilles7

 

We know that there are alquacker fighters assisting the rebels and even the rebels have said this... that should automatically make them our enemy

unless you support sending arms to alquacker ?

False equivalency.

I stated nothing coming even remotely close to saying I support the rebels. I merely said that just because I dont support the 'rebels' doesnt mean that I will automatically pretend Putin is a great guy, as was previously stated by the person i responded to.

Clear now?

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by stanguilles7
So I ask you, have you considered that perhaps this is all a big game tha6 Putin and the US play for ther own mutual and separate benefit?

I certainly have considered that, and as I said I perfectly understand the game that the US and Russia are playing. Which is why I understand the side US is taking and its agenda, I just can't listen to Hillary with a straight face. It is not US's game, it is the delivery of its message that gets me. To pretend that you are on a moral highground, a pedestal above everyone else, and to voice it with such conviction. I get it that hundreds of millions of people buy that BS, but for everyone else it is see-through farce.

edit on 18-6-2012 by maloy because: (no reason given)

Yes. Completely agree. It's comical. But par for the course. Just like Putin's words and actions.

What I find absurd is just how many people on ATS think that anyone opposed to the US, like Putin, is somehow a good guy. You can find that sentiment prevalent in this thread.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
These arms look more like tools to stop an invasion rather than domestic rebels

Tools to stop an invasion?
Really?
Really!
Then these similar tools were used by Russia, to stop an Afghanistan invasion into the USSR.

reply to post by maloy

I am certain that in the coming decades the face-off between Russia and Saudi Arabia will become more pronounced in conflicts in Middle East, even if it will stay strictly on a proxy basis.

It is time for Russia to let the little poodles of the US know, that 1 Megaton H-Bomb over Riyadh and Dubai will destroy those cities many times over. Once these poodles are straightened out, then US would not have much leverage in creating disturbances in other nations in the region. Moscow should let it be known to the Oil Drunk shaikhs that if Assad goes, so WILL Riyadh, Dubai and Qatar cease to exist as cities. There are lots of Indians, Pakis, Chinese in these countries to overrun their militaries in two days. Heck majority of the Shiek nation militaries are manned by S.E. Asians to begin with.

Originally posted by stanguilles7

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
These arms look more like tools to stop an invasion rather than domestic rebels

No. Surface to air missiles and the like are good for that, which Russia is also supplying Syria with.

But helicopters work well for attacking soldiers already on the ground and moving your troops around strategically.

They are SYRIAN choppers! Russia can't just decide to keep someone elses equipment and not honor contracts it has signed, it would lose lose allies, business, influence... Russia is just returning what isn't theirs, while the West is actively supplying and training death squads (Homs massacre) and supporting religious persecution (Christians forced to flee after not bowing down to the FSA). Not to mention all that support to Saudi-Arabia, which used American made weaponry to crack down on opposition demonstrators in a FOREIGN COUNTRY - and that's completely OK with Americans. I can't wait for western economies to collapse, hopefully that will make them have their own "Western Roman Empire" moment and force them to pull troops and money back home.

Originally posted by victor7
reply to post by stanguilles7

 

Putin should be foolish to want to fight with the US. However US is very eager to fight with Russia. The reason: F22s. This plane is a game changer and Russia or China do not have any answer to this plane at the moment. Russian version comes out in 2015-2017. That's why US is in a hurry.

Does Russia have any secret technologies that US does not know about. Knowing Russian psychology one would say they should have more than a few. But knowing Russian deeds and demeanor, one can easily say that even what they project to have should be reduced by half. Phantom power and deceptive projection of strength.

I don't think the US is very eager to fight Russia. Russia is part of the SCO. Combined they have a 4 billion man army, thousands of nuclear weapons, and all the toys.
Although not full members of the SCO, Pakistan and India would probably jump on board.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by stanguilles7
Yes. Completely agree. It's comical. But par for the course. Just like Putin's words and actions.

What I find absurd is just how many people on ATS think that anyone opposed to the US, like Putin, is somehow a good guy. You can find that sentiment prevalent in this thread.

There are no good or bad guys in politics, or a right and wrong way - there are just effective and ineffective ways to achieve your goals, and of course there are competing goals. Some may see Putin's international agenda as a change of pace - a pace set by US since the end of the Cold-War. Perhaps even people who support the US see a need in a change of pace, because they see the current pace as ineffective in achieving their goals.

Whatever the case is, the US has been far more aggressive and militarily active in the international arena than any of the other big powers. Many factions are put-off if not outright threatened by this, and will inevitably flock to the opposing side/

reply to post by victor7


A far more effective way to deal with Saudi Arabia is to seek their own demons and plague that they birthed against them. The country is teeming with all kinds of fanatical militants waiting for their moment in the spotlight. They also have Islamist contractors involved in conflicts around the world. Many of these contractors are in it either for money or idealogy, likely both, and they can be just as well turned against their maker.

US and the sheikhs will have to work hard and spend lots of money to keep their creation from turning against them. Russia and their Middle East allies have the resources to work just as hard to ignite that powder barrel. You think Syria is entertaining? Saudi Arabia is going to light up magnificently with all the sh*t and skeletons in their closet, the question is when.

Originally posted by maloy
Many factions are put-off if not outright threatened by this, and will inevitably flock to the opposing side/

Indeed. I'm just saying it not a very intelligent way to think about things.

Originally posted by Shred

Originally posted by stanguilles7

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
These arms look more like tools to stop an invasion rather than domestic rebels

No. Surface to air missiles and the like are good for that, which Russia is also supplying Syria with.

But helicopters work well for attacking soldiers already on the ground and moving your troops around strategically.

They are SYRIAN choppers! Russia can't just decide to keep someone elses equipment and not honor contracts it has signed, it would lose lose allies, business, influence... Russia is just returning what isn't theirs, while the West is actively supplying and training death squads (Homs massacre) and supporting religious persecution (Christians forced to flee after not bowing down to the FSA). Not to mention all that support to Saudi-Arabia, which used American made weaponry to crack down on opposition demonstrators in a FOREIGN COUNTRY - and that's completely OK with Americans. I can't wait for western economies to collapse, hopefully that will make them have their own "Western Roman Empire" moment and force them to pull troops and money back home.

Where do you get that I support the US's goals here?

Your comment doesnt relate to mine at all.

Originally posted by stanguilles7
Indeed. I'm just saying it not a very intelligent way to think about things.

But thats the way nations behaved throughout history. It is inevitable. Most historical alliances were alliances of temporary necessity rather than lasting friendship and comradery.

Is there really an "intelligent way to think about things" in politics? There are practical and idealogical ways. There is a constant trade-off between being long-sighted and short-sighted, usually depending on how long one plans to stay in power and how long they have to achieve their goals. I think we can rule out "intelligence" here, since there is never going to be consensus on it, and focus on what is practical.

Well if it isn't timely:

Russian warships 'ready to sail for Syria'

Two Russian navy ships and their crew of marines are ready to set sail to Syria if needed, according to an unconfirmed Russian media report.

The two amphibious vessels could dock at the port of Tartus, where Russia has a naval base, Interfax reports.

The report, citing an unidentified naval command officer, has not been confirmed by official Russian sources.

The ships' mission is understood to be both to protect Russian citizens and remove equipment if necessary.

The ships, crews and marines "are capable, in case of need, to provide security for Russian citizens and remove property from the logistics facility in Tartus," Interfax quoted the unnamed officer as saying.

Protection

A deputy Russian air force chief was also quoted as saying that Russia was ready to provide the protection needed to its citizens in Syria.

"We must protect our citizens," Maj Gen Vladimir Gradusov was quoted as saying by the news agency.

"We won't abandon the Russians and [will] evacuate them from the conflict zone if necessary."

The two vessels are capable of operating at sea and on land, and according to AFP, one - the Tsezar Kunikov - can carry 150 landing troops and various armaments including tanks, while the other - the Nikolai Filchenkov - can carry up to 1,500 tonnes of cargo and equipment.

The port of Tartus is Russia's only naval base beyond the former Soviet Union

It provides a base for ships on missions to the Mediterranean as well as those on anti-piracy missions in the Gulf of Aden, where Russia co-operates with Nato efforts.

The BBC's defence correspondent, Jonathan Marcus, says that, if confirmed, the deployment of the landing ships and their marines suggests that the Russians are taking prudent precautions in the event of the Syrian regime collapsing.

He says it is unclear to what extent this move by Moscow is simply precautionary, or how far it may signal a shift in attitude towards the Syrian regime.

Watch more BS rumors and media spins spread about this along the lines of "Russia is landing marines in Syria". I feel this game is going to get old rather quick, but I do enjoy watching the Arab militants butcher each other. Isn't war fun when you don't particularly care about either side? It is like a sporting event, but with more drama and explosions.

It's all about bargaining chips, and how many you can have at hand when you come to the table.
Russia wants gas pipelines, removal of missile defense systems near its borders etc. By creating a situation in Syria, they create leverage which they did not have in previous years. Just like the Cuban missile crisis, nobody ever heard of the missiles we removed or did not deploy in Turkey or other places as a result. Same game, different decade. Nothing to see, move along now.

reply to post by maloy


Russia should threaten Saudi and UAE with its own version of Arab Spring in these countries. Russians are fairly efficient and experienced in such backhand revolt creation. Then Shieks will really become good students of international peace and non interference in other nations.

Since Iran started to attack Israeli diplomats around the world, the assassinations of Iranian scientists have come to a stop. It takes offense to make for a good defense. Russia should learn this too regarding BMD systems around its borders and 'regime change' missions on its allies.

Breaking news on this.

A Russian ship believed to be carrying helicopters and missiles for Syria has been effectively stopped in its tracks off the coast of Scotland after its insurance was cancelled at the behest of the British government.

Telegra ph

This could get messy.

It is a helicopter isn't it?
Why couldn't they fly it into Syria From Iran.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
It's all about bargaining chips, and how many you can have at hand when you come to the table.
Russia wants gas pipelines, removal of missile defense systems near its borders etc. By creating a situation in Syria, they create leverage which they did not have in previous years. Just like the Cuban missile crisis, nobody ever heard of the missiles we removed or did not deploy in Turkey or other places as a result. Same game, different decade. Nothing to see, move along now.

That may be part of it, but what Russian and (China too) REALLY want is to ensure that international intervention in "domestic political violence" does not become the norm - because their political power relies upon it & they do nto want anyone to think they could intervene in them if/when they get overtly repressive (again).

IIRC this was noted a week or 2 ago in a article posted here on ATS by someone that seemed to get missed by most ppl...I'll see if I can find it....

Originally posted by grey580
It is a helicopter isn't it?
Why couldn't they fly it into Syria From Iran.

didn't do much geography at school huh??

reply to post by maloy

While I do agree that one of the strategic goals is encirclement of Russia, I do not think it will get as far as what you are prescribing. There are not going to be uprisings in that region of Russia - Russia knows its regions and internal geopolitics far better than US does. I know, because I lived in those regions. Russia is making extensive preparations too, and unlike US I do not think it is overstretched. Russia will continue to have internal upheavals - but these will be in Moscow and will not be bloody. US cannot subjugate Russia using its Middle East strategy - Russia is very different from any regime in the ME.

I am not convinced. Right now oil prices are high so Russia can buy jobs for the people in the restive regions. Once these jobs cannot be bought, then these areas will be vulnerable to problems created from outside.

Main problem is the elite in Russia are hurting the country all along. In 1990s the population was nearly reduced to less than hand to mouth basis, just like in WWII. In early 2000s, 50% of economy was based on energy prices and now the figure has jumped to more than 75%. With no industrial diversification yet introduced, once the commodity boom is over it will be tough. Rich will remain rich and poor will suffer more and be left on their own, to scavange or just remain hungry, just like in WWII. Is that the true representation and lifestyle of Russia?

Instead of buying peace and votes, Putin needs to pull some long term levers that stabilizes country's volatile swings in economy and its effects on general populations.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
It's all about bargaining chips, and how many you can have at hand when you come to the table.
Russia wants gas pipelines, removal of missile defense systems near its borders etc. By creating a situation in Syria, they create leverage which they did not have in previous years. Just like the Cuban missile crisis, nobody ever heard of the missiles we removed or did not deploy in Turkey or other places as a result. Same game, different decade. Nothing to see, move along now.

Some truth in what you say there. But this is a 'legal' manoeuvre, to be brought about by a bunch of crooks in request from a bunch of crooks, to make another bunch of crooks take action against a worldwide bunch of crooks who own a ship, which is carrying something from another bunch of crooks, who are actually honouring a contract to another bunch of crooks, who have already got a good amount of the something, that they have already used on the hapless civvy's, and which is probably enough anyway...have I got it right?