Bring on the Gay Boy Scouts

reply to post by KnawLick

Think, its wrong to impose the "rights" of 6% of the population on an 80% christian community then its also wrong to impose the beliefs of that christian community on atheists.

The problem I have with the "gay agenda" is there is no compromising with it. Support gay marriage or your a bigot. I say do whatever the heck you want in your state but don't shove it down our throats. In turn we should show the same respect...

What's amusing to me right now is how you get this and completely don't get it at the same time :-)

You've had the vote all along - and you may have it for a while still

But how is this process shoving something down your throat?

People are fighting for their rights - the numbers are shifting - things will change...and it will all be legal

You might not like it - same as some people don't like the way it is now

But nobody will force you. They'll either outvote you - or it will be decided in the courts. Same as many other important issues have been decided in the courts

And - I also believe everyone should show everyone else respect - we're trying to have a civilization here

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


The idea of "Marriage" has always been religious in nature.

Since religions have taken marriage and effectively claimed it as their own ( as wrong as that is) it's been the norm for a very long time.

The issue here is that neither side wants to compromise, when in fact both sides should.

For the sake of progress and getting what you want, which in the gay communitie's case is getting equal rights that marriage licences provide, if you have a civil union which gives you the same thing, why must it be called marriage?

~Tenth

reply to post by KnawLick


We have MANY rights. Far too many to list. AMONG THEM are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The point is that what one person enjoys as a right (or liberty) should not be denied to other people. In the case of marriage (which is really off topic in this thread) it is a right enjoyed by straight people and denied to gay people. Marriage is a legal contract that provides federal benefits to those who enter into it. Denying the option to enter into a legal contract that provides federal benefits to a group of people because of who they love is discrimination with federal repercussions.

FindLaw Civil Rights

Civil liberties include:

Freedom of speech
The right to privacy
The right to be free from unreasonable searches of your home
The right to a fair court trial
The right to marry
The right to vote

Even if you consider marriage as just a "liberty" instead of a "right", denying it to gay people is discrimination and should be illegal. Would you support the DMV denying drivers licenses based on sexuality? Because that's just what the states are doing when they deny marriage licenses to gay people.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
The idea of "Marriage" has always been religious in nature.

No, it hasn't. Religion co-opted marriage, like you said. It was around and served various purposes for many years before religion came along.

For the sake of progress and getting what you want, which in the gay communitie's case is getting equal rights that marriage licences provide, if you have a civil union which gives you the same thing, why must it be called marriage?

In what state does a civil union provide the same benefits as marriage? Let me help you out. NONE of them. I'm surprised you don't know this.

www.now.org...

reply to post by tothetenthpower


thank you :-)

For the sake of progress and getting what you want, which in the gay communitie's case is getting equal rights that marriage licences provide, if you have a civil union which gives you the same thing, why must it be called marriage?

Change never happens easily - tradition takes care of most of that

It still comes - and one day nobody will be able to remember a time when this was even an issue

Here is the thing of it tothetenthpower - it is about the meaning of the word

If they are real people (which they are) and citizens equal to all other citizens in the eye of the law - then they can marry

The values of marriage aren't just religious values - the things that any two people in love want from marriage aren't any different from what religious folk want

it is the institution that is important - and the freedom to be married

not civilly united

it really is about the word...no one group owns that word - or the right to the concept

it's about equality

and - noone gets hurt in all this

nobody is actually losing a single thing

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I'm not saying there is BH, I'm saying that states should adopt civil unions instead of marriage for same sex couples.

There should be no grievance from either side if they are going to be provided with the same rights.

And yes like I said religion usurpted marriage, which I don't really have a problem with, they want it as their institution that's fine, but if the government gets involved, which it did, it must provide an equal avenue for same sex couples.

In this case Civil Unions. It's the most logical, and easiest way to resolve the issue nationally.

~Tenth

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Keeping this debate ongoing, for the sake of a word, is really really really stupid, on both sides of the aisle.

The bigger problem though is that people make too much money off this fight. The gay activists who fight for marriage equality and the conservative groups ( or others) that fight against it.

This has always been about money after both sides realized they could rake in millions, if not billions in support every year to pad their pockets.

~Tenth

Scout Oath

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and
To obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Scout Law

A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Scout Motto

Be Prepared

Scout Slogan

Do a good turn daily

Outdoor Code

As an American, I will do my best, to be clean in my outdoor manners, to be careful with fire, to be considerate in the outdoors, and to be conservation minded

OH MY! What an evil thing for children to be taught!

Why is it the Gay community insists on making everything about sex? The only reason anyone would know if the child were Gay is if the kid or their parents broadcasted it and talked about it all the time. I actually know one person who ended up being Gay I went through Scouting with. Nobody knew or cared as Scouting is not a sexual activity. There would be no reason for a child's sexual orientation to ever come up.

Perhaps if Gays stopped talking about their sexual preferences non-stop and stopped trying to indoctrinate children the problems would go away and they would be accepted easier. The simple fact a person has to constantly talk about their sexual orientation seems like a mental disorder to me up front. Of course not all Gays do that and I'd imagine most Gays are not thrilled about how their counterparts act.

People also need to understand that Pedophiles who are Gay seeking out leadership roles in the Scouts as adults has been a problem all along. It happens far more than people know about as it's handled quietly and privately to protect the kids. It happened in the small community where I was a Scout. The guy was also a 4th Grade Teacher along with being a Scout leader. He got caught in a basement of the school molesting a child. Probably happens many times a year nationwide I imagine. Only Gay Pedophiles are interested in young boys it seems.

Of course the main argument and the most important one is the right to associate with who you wish. That is by far the most important thing here.

Imagine if Congressional Black Caucus were required to admit an equal number of White Congresspersons? They openly discriminate and chose who they wish to associate with. Same thing exactly.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I'm saying that states should adopt civil unions instead of marriage for same sex couples.

That would be an OK interim step, but civil unions do not provide the same benefits as marriage. I believe there are 2 states that offer civil unions to gay people and neither provide the same FEDERAL benefits as marriage does.

There should be no grievance from either side if they are going to be provided with the same rights.

I agree. IF they were provided the same benefits, but they aren't.

...but if the government gets involved, which it did, it must provide an equal avenue for same sex couples.

In this case Civil Unions.

But civil unions are not an EQUAL avenue at all.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I live in a country where they are BH, so it's hard to wrap my head around it.

The civil unions I'm discussing would be Federal and provides those benefits and be recognized in every state.

Then again in my country gay marriage was an issue for all of 3 mins before we all agreed we had no business telling consenting adults who they should associate with.

Ron Paul actually said it best when asked about gay marriage, he said:

"I support all forms of voluntary association"

~Tenth

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Oh crap! I forgot about that. Sorry. Yes, here in the states, it's VERY different.

I definitely support federally-sanctioned civil unions (for anyone who wants them), but only as an interim step to marriage equality. Every US state that has sanctioned civil unions has gone on to legalize marriage equality. Eventually, I think the "separate but equal" mindset has to go.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Ahem...

Being gay isn't about sex, it's about love and what gender you are attracted to.
I remember being a little girl and having a crush on a boy in my class as young as the 2nd grade. Are you trying to say I wanted to have sex at that age? Why is it okay for heterosexual little girls and boys to have crushes and talk about their crushes but not homosexual or bisexual little girls and boys?

Why is it okay for elementary school books to depict mommies and daddies as married and being loving parents but when it's a daddy and daddy it's OMG that's depraved! They're sexualizing our kids! Why do gays have to be in our faces!? Why can't they be gay behind closed doors? Are we supposed to go back to a time when gay couples can't adopt or have children through surrogates all because we don't want to expose our "normal" children to the gays?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Oh crap! I forgot about that. Sorry.

Yes, here in the states, it's VERY different.

I definitely support federally-sanctioned civil unions (for anyone who wants them), but only as an interim step to marriage equality. Every US state that has sanctioned civil unions has gone on to legalize marriage equality. Eventually, I think the "separate but equal" mindset has to go.

I would agree with you, ( and I use to hold this exact stance) but honestly it's semantics as far as I'm concerned. If all the legal rights are there, complaining about what it's called is akin to beating a dead horse.

IMO.

In a perfect world, yes it would be marriage and everything would be honkey dorey. But you have to follow the money in these instances to see that people don't want this debate to end, not while there is money to be made from the bickering.

~Tenth

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by SLAYER69

I have no issues with the Scouts allowing gays. How about a compromise? Say the Boys or Girls scouts should offer "Gay troops" If one chooses to be open about their orientation at that stage of their life then why not?

Maybe we should have a compromise military too - the gay troops?

The Gay Marines? Would that work? Or, are there no gay marines?

Gay Marine Brandon Morgan spoke with MSNBC about his homecoming photo, how it helps break stereotypes about gay people, what the photo might mean to kids who are struggling with sexual identity, and what he has to say to people who have said they are offended by a photo of two men kissing.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I'm not just concerned with gay people either... I'm not gay, and I'm not religious and don't have ANY desire or intention to enter into any religious construct AT ALL. I am married. Legally married. Not by the church, and my marriage has nothing to do with god.

Why shouldn't you have the same rights as I? I guarantee the church would approve less of my personal life than yours.

reply to post by navy_vet_stg3


Don't forget the poor.

reply to post by KnawLick


Your proud that your state marginalizes people because there are not enough of them to defend their own rights?

wow....

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

I'm not just concerned with gay people either... I'm not gay, and I'm not religious and don't have ANY desire or intention to enter into any religious construct AT ALL. I am married. Legally married. Not by the church, and my marriage has nothing to do with god.

Why shouldn't you have the same rights as I? I guarantee the church would approve less of my personal life than yours.

That's the thing right the Civil Union would be the same as a marriage licence under the law, which is all you want in the end.

My husband and I are legally married. We use to have a civil union, but we can actually get a proper marriage licence back in the early 2000's. It really didn't do anything for us, other than to my husband, ( which to him it validated our marriage) I found it all quite silly.

IMO I don't need a piece of paper to validate our relationship and in Canada the only real right you gain is that the government wont' take your assets when you die

It's funny cause I work with a few church groups in our community who are pro inclusion ( I organize certain events for them) and they always said we ( the gays) always threw the best parties

~Tenth

I think that the LGBT community needs to practice a little tolerance here.

If they want to start their own version of scouting.... then do so.

But, not everyone has to march to their drummer.

reply to post by Wildbob77


What makes you think that "gay scouting" would be any different than straight scouting? Gay people don't want their own version of things, they want to participate in things the rest of us do.