4,000 years ago, climate change caused massive civilization collapse

Originally posted by benrl
So it took humanity 200k years to get off is ass and do something? I think not.

This is exactly where I start to part ways with "conventional wisdom". Like benrl, i find some of the numbers tossed around a little difficult to believe. Human civilization is likely far older, than many of us can imagine, and it's definately older than what academia would like us to believe.

Semper Fi!

reply to post by Erectus


Many stories from around the world speak of a "Great Flood" I'm always amazed that many think this was the complete global deluge described in the bible. I don't believe there ever was such a massive global flood. I do however believe that on occasion the Earth's coastlines were flooded out sometimes rapidly, sometimes slowly as the the ice caps expanded and contracted over time...

These sometimes massive coastal floods could be the source for the "Great Flood" written and repeated in legends and various text from around the ancient world. The following animation is from Part- 3 of my Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1 and Part-2 series.


Watch the various coast lines grow and recede while the oceans rise fall over the last 200,000 years. Notice the creation of the Persian Gulf.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/46dbdd5dafd9.gif[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by Phage
Because, as pointed out, many (all) civilizations began in coastal areas and river valleys. Tsunamis and floods. A tsunami or flood had the potential to wipe away an entire civilization. The stuff of legend.

Possible, but I'm inclined to believe otherwise- ancient civilizations, including China, Babylonia, Wales, Rusia, India, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, Polynesia, and even America all have accounts of a world-wide flood.

Here's a few, from this site here.

SNIP

A lot of these stories are not "scientifically probable", yet they all carry similar characteristics- they all agree on "destruction by water" and that Humans and animals were spared. A lot of them also attributed it to God and even say a warning was given.

And a lot of them aren't actually legitmate native myths. In fact, they appear to have been completely fabricated by creationists/fundamentalist Christians, such as the peiople that created and run the website you took them from.

For example, no such Aztec myth appears to exist. For another example, the Ojibwe myth isn't a real native myth either.

Go to this page:
www.talkorigins.org...

Scroll down a little more than halway and you'll see this heading:

Chippewa (Ojibway) (Ontario, Minnesota, Wisconsin):

Under that heading, you can read all seven different Ojibwe flood myths. If you do so, you'll find that not a single one matches what you posted. Quickly scanning them, I didn't even see any similarities, though a more thorough read might turn some up.

In the future, you might want to consider what readers will conclude about your quotes when you take them from agenda-driven fundamentalist religion websites.

Harte

Originally posted by zazzafrazz

Originally posted by pheonix358
Could someone answer a long standing question for me on Carbon14 dating please.

I will use an example to best illiterate the question.

Let us begin with a pyramid. Do we carbon date the stones? How? AS far as I can see all we can do is to date the time that the stone block has been exposed to air. Since we know that the pyramids were sheathed in marble all we can really determine is how long it has been since someone stole the marble.

Yes we can presumably date what was found in the pyramids but that only tells us when someone was buried, not when it was constructed. How do we go about dating a pyramid.

P

Stones cannot be dated, there are very few wooden beams built into the pyramid, additionally there is the enormous workers metropolis dating to Khufus time, that has bakehouses, cemeteries with workers remains, animal remains (vast quantities to feed a workforce in the tens of thousands) Ochre kartouches in the pyramid with Khufus name, and other bits and bobs that can be dated.

Pheonix,
You are correct to surmise that the stones in the GP can't be dated, except that they can be dated to the era of their actual formation, but not to their date of placement.

However, the stones are placed with huge amounts of mortar. This mortar is made from lime, among other ingredients.

Lime is acquired by burning limestone (baking it, really.) To this day, lime is made in this manner. The AE's made lime the same way, only rather sloppily.

What that means is that there are bits and pieces of charcoal (and wood) left over from this process in the mortar itself.

Thus, it is the mortar that is dated (actually, the carbon in the mortar that came from wood.) Unfortunately, there's no way to tell how old the wood was that was used, and certainly wood of different ages was used in the same fire repeatedly.

This explains the somewhat large variation in the dates obtained through C14 analysis of the mortar. They call it the "old wood problem." Google those words for more info on this.

Regarding sampling, two different assessments of age were made at Giza and these two different data collections were conducted twenty years apart. In both cases, literally hundreds of samples were taken from the GP. And, no, they weren't taken from surfaces. Rather, they were drilled out from in between stones in the edifice.

As a side note, please know that no Egyptian pyramid has been found to have been "sheathed in marble."
The outer stones ("casing stones") were of a very fine and white grade of limestone from Tura. Tura is a mining site located just outside of what is today known as Cairo.

And Zazzafrazz, ochre can't be dated using C14 techniques. Ochre is clay stained with rust, neither of which is organic.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
And that the Ochre kartouches in the Great Pyramid with Khufus name is either a fraud or simply the workers who tunneled in to the upper support chambers during the refurbishing painted it so as to let those who would follow who did the refurbishing.

That's a simple thing to type, isn't it? However, nobody tunneled into the relieving chambers. There would have been signs of repairs. In fact, to access them, black powder explosives had to be used. The first chamber was found by accident in this way. The others were found when it was noticed that a stick could be run up into a crack several feet in the ceiling of the first chamber. It was surmised (correctly) that there was open space above the ceiling.

Regarding the "fraud," as I'm sure you're aware, I've pointed out several times that the name of Khufu found in those chambers was unknown at the time the chambers were discovered. So, how did they forge a legitimate Khufu name without first even knowing it existed?

Also, the graffiti was in the form of writing known (in those days) by the term "linear hieroglyphics." At that time, it was thought that this writing form was developed hundreds of years after Khufu (it has since been discovered that this script developed right alongsside the more formal script.)

Are you saying that Vyse was so stupid that he purposefully forged the glyphs in what at that time would be considered an anachronistic script? Vyse was as aware of the current ideas in Egyptology as anyone.

Harte

reply to post by SLAYER69


Heard a guy on Noory the other night, name escapes me, who was proposing the theory that the floods observed were planetary in scale, due to the earth passing through the tail of a comet. Personally, I put more stock in the rising sea level school of thought here, but I think Slayer's on to something. If the events affected everyone you knew to exist, then it would be all encompassing ... even if it didn't affect groups you didn't know about. It's a perceptual thing.

Environment and evolution account for why we didn't have sprawling cities 200,000 years ago. The final component to the modern sapien mind came about between 25,000 and 50,000 years ago. The most popular figure is 40,000. This change allowed humans to abstractly relate dissimilar things. It allowed creativity on a scale so far removed from any other species that by 24 months of age a child can problem solve and create beyond any other animals' capability.

The ice age demanded a nomadic lifestyle. Humans had to follow the herds that they preyed upon for food and clothing. This meant small bands of people. Such a lifestyle negates mega-cities. People could not have very many possessions, but only what they could carry.

The equatorial regions would have not been so extreme so I suppose a different lifestyle could have existed. Perhaps fishing in a sedentary setting. Such villages would be under water. It is understood that many very old villages are under water. Scientists will not claim sedentism pre-holocene however, until there is evidence to support it. Then they will claim it. It is clear that as early as 10,000BC sedentism was occurring on a small scale, perhaps intermittently. Sedentism received a blow however when the Younger Dryas brought a mellenia of ice age weather again. Then by 8,000BC we see the beginnings of a recognizable society with stratified villages, chiefdoms.

This is the safe bet scenario based on the preponderance of evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Show me examples of humans using metals before the archeological record supports. Without metal you don't have advanced civilization. You have stone and bone spears. You have tiny slivers of high silica stone being used to carve flesh. You can have a society, but you cannot have the kind of civilization that emerged after 4000BC.

reply to post by Harte


Are you saying that "Khufu's workers" didn't tunnel into the upper relieving chambers supposedly during construction when a crack was seen developing on the ceiling of the "Kings" chamber?

ETA: I'm asking the obvious for a very specific reason.

maybe a meteor strike
here is the proof HERE

Originally posted by PlanetXisHERE
The demise of most ancient civilizations coincides with previous passages of Planet X, which has a 3650 year orbit.

No, it doesn't. It coincides with the Mayan and Incan calenders, both of which are more accurate than the atomic clock.

They never mentioned anything about "Planet X." They mentioned rare cosmic alignments, and in their sacred texts, "Gods in Ornaments" descending from the sky and have to defend us from the raging sun.



Do some research.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by Phage
Because, as pointed out, many (all) civilizations began in coastal areas and river valleys. Tsunamis and floods. A tsunami or flood had the potential to wipe away an entire civilization. The stuff of legend.

Possible, but I'm inclined to believe otherwise- ancient civilizations, including China, Babylonia, Wales, Rusia, India, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, Polynesia, and even America all have accounts of a world-wide flood.

Here's a few, from this site here.

SNIP

A lot of these stories are not "scientifically probable", yet they all carry similar characteristics- they all agree on "destruction by water" and that Humans and animals were spared. A lot of them also attributed it to God and even say a warning was given.

And a lot of them aren't actually legitmate native myths. In fact, they appear to have been completely fabricated by creationists/fundamentalist Christians, such as the peiople that created and run the website you took them from.

For example, no such Aztec myth appears to exist. For another example, the Ojibwe myth isn't a real native myth either.

Go to this page:
www.talkorigins.org...

Scroll down a little more than halway and you'll see this heading:

Chippewa (Ojibway) (Ontario, Minnesota, Wisconsin):

Under that heading, you can read all seven different Ojibwe flood myths. If you do so, you'll find that not a single one matches what you posted. Quickly scanning them, I didn't even see any similarities, though a more thorough read might turn some up.

In the future, you might want to consider what readers will conclude about your quotes when you take them from agenda-driven fundamentalist religion websites.

Harte

Wrong.

It's called the story of Tata and Nena.

www.bigorrin.org...

Good random guess, though.

And exactly like the Aztec and Incan myths, after the gods save them from the raging sun, they destroy all civilization anyways, because they're disgusted by mankind and want us to rebuild.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Harte

 

Are you saying that "Khufu's workers" didn't tunnel into the upper relieving chambers supposedly during construction when a crack was seen developing on the ceiling of the "Kings" chamber?

The "crack" I'm talking about is a space between stones in the ceiling, not a crack in the stone itself.

Colonel Vyse found a crack in the ceiling of Davison's chamber. He inserted a reed 3 feet long into the crack and it went through unimpeded. He suspected the presence of another chamber above. Unfortunately, the granite stone was too hard and the chisel's had little effect. He had special workman come in and try their hand but to no effect. Colonel Vyse than decided to use gunpowder. After blasting his way through, he discovered above Davison's chamber another relieving chamber which he named Wellington's chamber.

Source (One of hundreds.)

Originally posted by thegagefather
Wrong.

It's called the story of Tata and Nena.

www.bigorrin.org...

Good random guess, though.

And exactly like the Aztec and Incan myths, after the gods save them from the raging sun, they destroy all civilization anyways, because they're disgusted by mankind and want us to rebuild.

Sorry, but I'm not wrong.

Here's the story as posted by Lionhearte:

Aztec- A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

Here's the one you linked (thanks for that, by the way)

During the era of the fourth sun, the Sun of Water, the people grew very wicked and ignored the worship of the gods. The gods became angry and Tlaloc, the god of rains, announced that he was going to destroy the world with a flood. However, Tlaloc was fond of a devout couple, Tata and Nena, and he warned them of the flood. He instructed them to hollow out a great log and take two ears of corn-one for each of them-and eat nothing more.

So Tata and Nena entered the tree trunk with the two ears of corn, and it began to rain. When the rains subsided and Tata and Nena's log landed on dry land, they were so happy that they caught a fish and ate it, contrary to the orders of Tlaloc. It was only after their stomachs were full that they remembered Tlaloc's command.

Tlaloc then appeared to them and said, "This is how I am repaid for saving your lives?" They were then changed into dogs. It was at this point, where even the most righteous people were disobedient, that the gods destroyed the world, ushering in the present era of the Fifth Sun.

These are quite obviously not even close to the same.

I was aware of an Aztec flood myth associated with one of the previous "worlds," as they believed there to be.

IIRC, the concept was originally Olmec.

Harte

I feel that archeological researchers have too fixed of an idea of where to look for past civilizations. Their world view appears to be dominated by the current coast lines and they have a certain lack of imagination when it comes to turning their attention to where the coast lines once lay.

Regardless of what sea level study you subscribe to, certain generalities can be made. Since the glacial maximum about 23000 years ago, sea levels have risen approximately 130 meters. Over the last 12000 years, sea levels have risen by 64 meters. Put these numbers into the applets at this page merkel.zoneo.net... to see the impact this would have on the coast lines.


There is some debate as to the rate that sea level has risen over the last 12000 years; one school favoring the vast majority of the increase occurring between about 11k to 8k years ago…. And then a steady rise of 10 to 20 meters over the next 8000 years. This is the theory I support as it would lead to a steady location of the coast line, which allowed civilization to develop.

I personally believe that the Flood Myths are rooted in an event known as Meltwater Pulse 1a- which was a 20 meter rise in sea levels over a 200 to 500 year period which occurred sometime between 13.5k and 15k years ago.

Back to this specific thread, there is really no disputing that an climate event of some sort occurred around 4.2k years ago around the same time as glaciers were advancing in North America (leading to a net decrease in sea levels). There appears to have been world wide climate change, which lasted approximately a century (enough time to break the backs of most civilizations). Drought was the most typical feature of this episode.

Great thread as always Slayer! Looking forward to the hinted at upcoming thread

Originally posted by Harte
reply to post by Harte

 

I was aware of an Aztec flood myth associated with one of the previous "worlds," as they believed there to be.

IIRC, the concept was originally Olmec.

Harte

Admit your own pick-and-choosing and then act as if you know something..

I'm done with this one.

Originally posted by benrl
Humanity in its current form has been around some 200-250k years, civilization rose in the the last 10k... Something seems off about that to me...

Thats from the current smartest of us is no smarter than the smartest man 250k years ago, we may have more "knowledge" but actual brain powers the same...

So it took humanity 200k years to get off is ass and do something? I think not.

Originally posted by thegagefather

Originally posted by Harte
reply to post by Harte

 

I was aware of an Aztec flood myth associated with one of the previous "worlds," as they believed there to be.

IIRC, the concept was originally Olmec.

Harte

Admit your own pick-and-choosing and then act as if you know something..

I'm done with this one.

edit on 2-6-2012 by thegagefather because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-6-2012 by thegagefather because: (no reason given)

Think what you want, but I specifically stated to Lionhearte that :

In fact, they appear to have been completely fabricated by creationists/fundamentalist Christians, such as the peiople that created and run the website you took them from.

For example, no such Aztec myth appears to exist. For another example, the Ojibwe myth isn't a real native myth either.

Are you saying that Lionhearte's Aztec myth actually exists?

If so, I'd appreciate a link to a legitimate website (such as the one you linked earlier) that has that myth.

BTW, I do know something. But what I don't know is what it is that you're on about here.

Harte

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Submerged sites of ancient communities could be hidden in the seas around the Western Isles, according to experts. Dr Jonathan Benjamin and Dr Andrew Bicket believe the islands' long and sheltered lochs have protected 9,000-year-old Mesolithic relics. Rising sea levels may have covered up to 6.2 miles (10km) of land on the west coast of the Outer Hebrides. The archaeologists are to give a presentation in Comhairle nan Eilean Siar's council chambers on Monday.

During the Mesolithic period, also known as the Middle Stone Age, Britain was transformed from a peninsula to an island. It is thought that landslides in Norway - the Storegga Slides - triggered one of the biggest tsunamis ever recorded on Earth when a landlocked sea burst its banks. The water struck the north-east of Britain with such force it travelled 25 miles (40km) inland, turning low-lying plains into what is now the North Sea, and marshlands to the south into the Channel.

Given that areas of the East Coast of Britain have been continuously inhabited since the Mesolithic, the Vale of Pickering has a number of such sites, this is reasonably unlikely to have been as devastating as the scientists have glammed it up to be. I suppose, in order to get funding they needed to add as much drama as possible, but I do not see how such a tsunami could have affected the Western Isles without also devastating those sites on the North-East coast which are supposed to have felt the full force of the wave. Surely the Western Isles would have been buffered by the mainland??? I can understand that the rise in sea levels that submerged Dogga Bank will have also meant that the lowland regions of the Western Isles would also have been considerably affected, but really, given that tsunamis usually recede, it seems that it is more about baffling with bull#, than dazzling with style.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I lol'd

if there was a punch someone in the face genie, my one wish would be to punch that man right in the face.

He annoys me so much yet I can't stop watching that show.

I sit there and yell at the screen.

Originally posted by benrl
Humanity in its current form has been around some 200-250k years, civilization rose in the the last 10k... Something seems off about that to me...

Thats from the current smartest of us is no smarter than the smartest man 250k years ago, we may have more "knowledge" but actual brain powers the same...

So it took humanity 200k years to get off is ass and do something? I think not.

I used to be of the same view point.... but even if we factor in hypothetical existence of evidence of previous civilations under the sea (or wherever), we still are bound by the genetic evidence of human kinds migration around the globe. The first constraint is the lack of Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup A outside of Africa in any significant quantities. In fact, the upper limit for humans leaving Africa is 65k years ago with the appearance of haplogroup DE and a eastward into Asia migration.

So the short answer is if it took us at leas 185000 years to migrate out of Africa... then what is another 65000 years to develop things such as the computer. I agree that there is quite a bit of missing history out there waiting to be discovered. It's just probably not older than 25000 years.

There is another component other than brain complexity which I don't believe has been adequately explored--- and that is the Origin of Consciousness and it's impact on the emergence of Modern Civilization.

reply to post by FissionSurplus


"Wasn't Mohenjo Daru featured on "Ancient Aliens" as the city where it appears that a nuclear holocaust took place? "

I just watched that AA episode the other night, it did mention that area of the indian sub continent that had a great many remains of old cities. When they were first excavated, they found the still intact remains of people who had falled down in thier tracks, the bones still undamaged and clean. Many of the remains looked like they were holding hands and fleeing something. Also, the animals did not tough the remains as they were laying on the ground (before they ere covered by ages of weather and dirt.) Maybe they were irradiated by a blast of some type? There were also stone structures that showed signs of vitrification near where the bodies were found. They also did background radiation tests and there was a significantly higher lever on the site and surrounding area. I know ther have been a lot of hollywood nuclear scenarios used but it does look to me like it is the remains of an Atomic blast on a populated area.

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I lol'd

if there was a punch someone in the face genie, my one wish would be to punch that man right in the face.

He annoys me so much yet I can't stop watching that show.

I sit there and yell at the screen.

Tell me about it.

"See that heiroglyph of a man holding a beer jar? He's an ALIEN! He also likes egyptian beer".