4,000 years ago, climate change caused massive civilization collapse

reply to post by SLAYER69


Seems like a very long, well-researched, informative, long, and interesting read. I am very eager to read it- I checked on your page, and noticed under your "favorite sites" you collectively listed your authored threads. I will, hopefully, read through all of these in time. You should write a book, I would be glad to buy one if it had all this information in it. Well done.

reply to post by Lionhearte


I'm grateful for your response. I was in the middle of reading the rest of your reply and refreshed the page for some odd reason and your reply was suddenly truncated

Originally posted by zazzafrazz


There is absolutely no evidence of a worldwide flood 4000 years ago, or 7000 years ago, the scars on the earth from natures impact (including humans) are all there to read, you just have to be bothered to source science journals and not ficticious literature.

Zazz, there might not be a lot of evidence,but great flooding did occur........Im still looking into it myself. Its hard to actually find evidence,that isn't tainted by creationists.....And Just looking at it in a scientific way.....

Says Weil, "We found that indeed a flood happened around that time. From core samples, we see that a flood broke through the natural barrier separating the Mediterranean Sea and the freshwater Black Sea, bringing with it seashells that only grow in a marine environment. There was no doubt that it was a fast flood -- one that covered an expanse four times the size of Israel. It might not have been Noah, as it is written in the Bible, but we believe people in that region had to build boats in order to save their animals from drowning. We think that the ones who survived were fishermen -- they already had the boats."

Marine Team Finds Surprising Evidence Supporting A Great Biblical Flood

Ryan and Pitman believe that the sealed Bosporus strait, which acted as a dam between the Mediterranean and Black seas, collapsed when climatic warming at the close of the last glacial period and caused icecaps to melt, raising global sea level. With more than 200 times the force of Niagara falls, the flood caused water levels in the Black Sea, which was no more than a large lake, to rise six inches per day and swallowed 60,000 square miles in less than a year. As the Mediterranean salt water replaced fresh water, it caused a wave of human migration from what had been an oasis of fresh water within very arid lands--an exodus traumatic enough to be recorded in human memory as the epic of Gilgamesh and the biblical story of Noah's Ark, the scientists said.

While the scientists waited for the mollusk shell carbon-14 dates from an accelerated mass spectrometer--a machine with the highest accuracy available--they knew that those dates would be the ultimate test. If the sea had grown slowly for more than a thousand years, so would the population of the mollusks. But if a flood had occurred, all the mollusks would be approximately the same age. In February 1994, the results came in. There was only a 40 year difference between the mollusks in the deepest layers and the ones in the shallowest. The date was 5,600 B.C.-- within the era of modern human history. "Statistically, the dates were the same. It was pretty persuasive," said Pitman.

Finding Noah's Flood: Evidence of Ancient Disaster is Linked to Biblical Legend

reply to post by sonnny1

The Black Sea isn't exactly "worldwide", is it?

reply to post by sonnny1


I agree, there is plenty of evidence for "Great Flooding" maybe not "World wide" it seems that the semantics brigade are afoot I feel there is plenty of evidence for coastal flooding events World Wide...

I don't believe in a complete and total planet wide flood covering it's entire surface ever occurred either.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by sonnny1

 

The Black Sea isn't exactly "worldwide", is it?

Well,consider those living in the Black Sea thought they were the center of the World,back then..........

Hey,I never said it happened,I said Im looking for proof.........

reply to post by sonnny1


Floods are common, including great floods, A third of Australia was pretty much underwater last year, bigger space than the Levant region, A natural occurrence, doesn't support a worldwide flood brought on by fictional human killing 'god'....

Creationists use any flood evidence to propagate the falsehood of a great world wide flood, and there is NO evidence of this.
appreciate the links and read though

reply to post by sonnny1

Well,consider those living in the Black Sea thought they were the center of the World,back then

Probably everyone living everywhere thought pretty much the same. Thus a major event anywhere becomes "worldwide" in legend.

That Bosporus breakthrough would have been something to see though. Gibraltar more so, of course no one was around to make a legend about that one.

Originally posted by Phage

Probably everyone living everywhere thought pretty much the same. Thus a major event anywhere becomes "worldwide" in legend.

My argument exactly

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
reply to post by sonnny1

 

Floods are common, including great floods, A third of Australia was pretty much underwater last year, bigger space than the Levant region, A natural occurrence, doesn't support a worldwide flood brought on by fictional human killing 'god'....

Creationists use any flood evidence to propagate the falsehood of a great world wide flood, and there is NO evidence of this.
appreciate the links and read though

edit on 2-6-2012 by zazzafrazz because: (no reason given)

I hear ya.


I feel something might have happened,but there are no real records,on a scientific scale,that pinpoints 100% a flood. As a youth,I was indoctrinated,into believing in it. I believe those,who put faith into it,still do,and I don't fault them on it. I actually envy them . Ive become cynical,in my old age,and question everything . Many theory's,but no smoking gun,on what might have happened 4000 years ago.

Great thread Slayer. As usual. Personally I subscribe to what Graham Hancock theorizes in his book Underworld. That at the end of the last ice age the rapid deglaciation that occurred due to rising global temps caused catastrophic coastal flooding worldwide. Hence leading to many cultures having flood myths based on their own experiences on various coastlines around the world. It makes sense.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Issue with this is this...the lady that is quoted as the researcher for this information doesn't actually exist. I too bought into the radiation story but then I thought I'd do my own research which led me to the University of Chandigarh in India and the lady (whose name escapes me) has never taught or studied there and is apparently a Doctor (the Phd kind). I caught onto this because I lived about an hour away from said university for more than half my life.

reply to post by solargeddon


What's to be gained by socking it to anyone?

We can deny, deny, deny until the cows come home but there's no changing what's in front of our eyes.

Originally posted by Phage
That Bosporus breakthrough would have been something to see though. Gibraltar more so, of course no one was around to make a legend about that one.

The Gibraltar breakthrough must have been awesome, considering estimates that it only took 100 years to fill the entire basin. The waterfall must have been tremendous, I have read, that it would have been even greater than Victoria Falls in both size and intensity. In comparison, the Bosphorus would have been fairly minor, a relatively small increase in water level, there is evidence that water from the med had been lapping over for sometime, the main issue with that breakthrough, was the exchange of fresh with salt water. Given the relatively minor rise in water levels, it was probably only marsh land that was submerged completely, particularly around the mouth of the Odessa, and areas, possibly, where the Sea of Azov is now. But nothing hugely dramatic, certainly nothing nearing comparison with the refilling of the Med.

reply to post by sonnny1


You might find 'Eden in the East' by Stephen Oppenheimer interesting. He has catalogued flood stories and myths and found that the greatest concentration of those stories are in South-East Asia. Obviously we now know that the Sunda penninsula was greatly effected by post-glacial rises in water levels, but there is some indication, from Oppenheimer's study, that the myths have travelled from that region. Either way, if you are interested in the subject, it is a fascinating read.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Interesting article...however, this struck me as odd...

They had cities ordered into grids, with exquisite plumbing, which was not encountered again until the Romans," Giosan told LiveScience. "They seem to have been a more democratic society than Mesopotamia and Egypt — no large structures were built for important personalitiess like kings or pharaohs."

A small niggle, but I wonder why they have disregarded Knossos and it's incredibly advanced plumbing systems. There the similarity ends, of course, at Knossos there was a palace, so not so egalitarian but still, to completely disregard the connection of plumbing technology seems a little bit negligent. And surely, given the advanced nature of the plumbing on Knossos it is somewhat probable that that technology could have been brought in from elsewhere...

The early plumbing engineers took advantage of the steep grade of the land to devise a drainage system with lavatories, sinks and manholes. Archaeologists have found pipe laid in depths from just below the surface in one area to almost 11 feet deep in others.

They constructed a main sewer of masonry, which linked four large stone shafts emanating from the upper stories of the palace. Evidently the shafts acted as ventilators and chutes for household refuse. The shafts and conduit were formed by cement-lined limestone flags, but earthenware or burnt clay pipes were used in the remainder of the system. These were laid out under passages, not under the living rooms.

The drainage system consisted of terra cotta pipes, from 4"-6" in diameter. The rain water from the roofs and the courts, and the overflows from the cisterns carried the water down into buried drains of pottery pipe. The pipes had perfect socket joints, so tapered that the narrow end of one pipe fixed tightly into the broad end of the next one. The tapering sections allowed a jetting action to prevent accumulation of sediment.

Not too far away was the world's earliest "flushing" water closet, screened off by gypsum partitions on either side. It was flushed by rain water or by water held in cisterns. Two conduits were built into the wall. There were several other closets found in the palace too.

www.theplumber.com...

TV shows like to report outlandish ideas. I'll not even call them theories. TV and most books are not the places to do research. I'd recommend scholarly journals and books from such places as Harvard Press, Oklahoma U Press, Smithsonian Press, and the like. The reading is bland and mind numbing, but shockingly detailed and precise.

Carbon14 dating is good to about 42,000 years ago. Any living thing can be dated. There are other dating techniques for deeper time. Believe it or not carbon14 dating isn't used as much as a person might think. Once enough chemical dating has been done to determine what styles of crafts were the norm at any time (pottery glazing or decorating, types of bead work, spear head shapes, seed types, or animal bones in midden) there is no reason to spend the time or money on carbon dating. If you want to know when a site was occupied just look at the stuff there.

I wish I were better versed in the areas that this thread concerns. My own research is centered on Native Americans in the Southeast US, and to some extent all Native Americans. I've noticed a continental wide civilization collapse in the Americas from 900-1100AD. Everything went bust from the Mayans to the woodland period Indians.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Words to live by. One cannot simply dismiss the evidence from tens of thousands of researchers which points toward one thing using a single circumstantial piece of evidence. Some of the off topic stuff on this thread is pretty thin, even laughable.

As for climate change it certainly has impacted mankind. Some of you are well versed in history(a very cool thing) so you know plenty of examples. In 2400BC agriculture was the foundation of civilization so all that would be needed to cause a collapse would be 2 or 3 very bad years of crop production. Regionally, over production of food can cause collapse without climate change. 2400BC is not so distant in time. I would think if it happened a person could put together a convincing case for it just based on current knowledge. What I've seen from the OP so far is interesting.

The flood myth is ubiquitous. It needn't have been world wide, however. The flood as described in the bible is physically impossible without the supernatural hand of a god adding a lot of extra water into the system and then taking it away later. Every civilization has experienced traumatic flood. Throughout time man has lived along the coasts and near water. Flood has always been a part of our reality, as has terrible fires, wind, earthquakes, and volcanoes.

Originally posted by AgentX09

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by FissionSurplus

 

They found "Slightly higher than average" radiation and a bunch of human skeletal remains lying huddled together face down in the streets and which showed no sign of scavenger mutilation/molestation of the bodies.

So, what does one deduce from that?

edit on 1-6-2012 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

An early nuclear war.Beside radio activity there was also evidense of very high temps on the stones.

I would lo0ve to read a believable source for the above claim that doesn't simply parrot the original Rense.com article (which itself referenced the apparently non-existent magazine "World Island Revue.")

Unfortunately, no such reference exists.

IOW, you're relying on a story at Rense as your source. A story with half a dozen demonstrable lies and misrepresentations in it.

Harte

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus

 

almost precisely to true north

Almost precisely? What does that mean?

It means that you're resorting to obfuscation by arguing semantics, even though you and I both know that you understand fully the point I was making.

Taken from Wiki:
"The sides of the square base are closely aligned to the four cardinal compass points (within 4 minutes of arc) based on true north, not magnetic north"

So they can accurately align a mega-tonne pyramid but according to you, are completely incapable of accurately measuring the angle of a shadow cast on the ground by a rod ?

Yes, in fact, that was the case.

To determine true north, the "higher-level" mathematics required is zilch. In fact, no mathematics whatsoever is requifred. The "high-technology" equipment required consists of a cord with a weight tied to one end and two sticks of at least eyeball height.

This can be improved upon by putting eyepieces in the two sticks at the same heights.

Regarding angles, it is known from Ancient Egyptian writings that angles were "measured" by the AE's in a manner similar to what we refer to as slope today.

The Egyptians used a combination of two numbers, similar to the "rise" and the "run" that is today taught as the two components of slope.

In Egypt angles were therefore measured and recorded as a pair of integers. Not a problem, as long as the shadow on the ground is a whole number multiple of one of the Egyptian units of length (cubit, hand and finger.)

Otherwise, they just used the nearest whole number if the shadow length was between two units.

So, yes, they were incapable of accurately measuring the angle of a shadow cast on the ground by a rod.

Harte

reply to post by Phage


Something to ponder.
Enjoy

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e1eaa87f3052.jpg[/atsimg]
Stone Age relics may be hidden in Western Isles' seas

Submerged sites of ancient communities could be hidden in the seas around the Western Isles, according to experts. Dr Jonathan Benjamin and Dr Andrew Bicket believe the islands' long and sheltered lochs have protected 9,000-year-old Mesolithic relics. Rising sea levels may have covered up to 6.2 miles (10km) of land on the west coast of the Outer Hebrides. The archaeologists are to give a presentation in Comhairle nan Eilean Siar's council chambers on Monday.

During the Mesolithic period, also known as the Middle Stone Age, Britain was transformed from a peninsula to an island. It is thought that landslides in Norway - the Storegga Slides - triggered one of the biggest tsunamis ever recorded on Earth when a landlocked sea burst its banks. The water struck the north-east of Britain with such force it travelled 25 miles (40km) inland, turning low-lying plains into what is now the North Sea, and marshlands to the south into the Channel.