Return of Christ and the "end times"

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Revelation 2: 7-10

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I think even an amateur bible reader can get the meaning of the underlined portion. You have to be a virtual moron to not get this it's plain and simple and screams rapture/harpazo.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

A plain reading of the text leads to a pre-trib rapture of the bride prior to the second advent of Christ.

Ok, can you describe how to read these verses, and which ones?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Revelation 2: 7-10

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I think even an amateur bible reader can get the meaning of the underlined portion. You have to be a virtual moron to not get this it's plain and simple and screams rapture/harpazo.

Most denominational churches are amillennialist, or in other words they take the Origen/Augustine approach to Eschatology, allegorical. It's called the "Alexandrian" method if hermeneutics. I know, to us it seems simple, but others don't have a literal approach to Eschatology.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

A plain reading of the text leads to a pre-trib rapture of the bride prior to the second advent of Christ.

Ok, can you describe how to read these verses, and which ones?

You can figure them out I think. No more pearls for you.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Revelation 2: 7-10

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I think even an amateur bible reader can get the meaning of the underlined portion. You have to be a virtual moron to not get this it's plain and simple and screams rapture/harpazo.

Most denominational churches are amillennialist, or in other words they take the Origen/Augustine approach to Eschatology, allegorical. It's called the "Alexandrian" method if hermeneutics. I know, to us it seems simple, but others don't have a literal approach to Eschatology.

Well my church is missionary baptist by association but we're not amillenialist. The "hour of trial", all you have to do is read the book to see what that's going to be like. This is where those who failed to make the rapture will suffer martyrdom for his namesake. The entire tribulation and great tribulation is a "trial" like what is put on by a court and the Elders are the judges. This means that in order for us to be "kept from the hour of trial" we will have to be physically removed from the earth or changed into our angelic bodies.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Shepperd of Hermes:
. . . .
(It will be possible to escape the coming tribulation??)

What you were quoting from one of your cult's blogs was, the first one, The Shepherd of Hermas, Vision four, and part of chapter 2.
The person having this vision says that people will escape harm from the tribulation by boldly facing it.
The second quote comes from Victorinus of Pettau.

He is one of the earliest church fathers to give any indication against Chiliasm . . .

en.wikipedia.org...
Chiliasm being another term of Premillennialism.

So to me your cult is for lazy people who do not want to trouble themselves with doing any actual research, and to just listen to a bunch of lies to feel good about being lazy and God will rapture you.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

A plain reading of the text leads to a pre-trib rapture of the bride prior to the second advent of Christ.

Ok, can you describe how to read these verses, and which ones?

You can figure them out I think. No more pearls for you.

I take this as a no.
So then it is not so straightforward as you make it out to be.

Originally posted by Innerlight
What if the end-times and return of Christ was a personal and spiritual experience? Maybe it's time for some people to rethink the programming handed down by Darby (originator of the rapture theory), Hal Lindsey (Late, Great Planet Earth), Jerry Jenkins (Left Behind series), Harold Camping (May 21 rapture) and let go of faulty assumptions.

A physical return of Christ with its complete destruction of the world, so widely speculated on, is not true. Rather, Christ appears a second time, the Revelation (revealing) of Christ, in the hearts of individual believers, who have prepared the way for him to be revealed in them; he, who has been hidden within, is revealed. As Paul said: it has pleased the Father to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him. The appearance of Christ, his revelation within you, and entering the Kingdom of Heaven is the completion of salvation. Thousands have already experienced Christ's second appearance as revealed within as documented in scripture and in the writings of George Fox and several other 17th Century Quakers.

For more on this (for open-minded

As a christian, I believe I have one of the more open minds around here and this theory just doesn't make sense.

A person who experiences these 3 verses:

John 14:21 - "He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 14:23 "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him,and we will come to him and make our home with him."

Revelation 3:20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and him with me."

are experiencing God's grace and have taken advantage of everything He did at his first coming. And even with all of this, including the baptism of the Holy Spirit - he will, at some point return for those who are sealed. If a person who is sealed dies before that day, then they will be with him when he returns.

Everything the Lord did in the physical was done so, so that when we experience it we can understand what is happening to us. He is not a God of confusion. At the end of the book of Revelation when he is saying, "I come quickly" it is in regards to his first coming. Like a final warning to repent and get with the program or you are going to be one of those who experience the wrath.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

A plain reading of the text leads to a pre-trib rapture of the bride prior to the second advent of Christ.

Ok, can you describe how to read these verses, and which ones?

You can figure them out I think. No more pearls for you.

I take this as a no.
So then it is not so straightforward as you make it out to be.

Not really, take it more as a "don't care if an old wineskin gets a new revelation".

reply to post by jmdewey60

and to just listen to a bunch of lies to feel good about being lazy and God will rapture you.

Being LAZY? What are you talking about? lol, and anyways, if you've read most of my posts on the subject over the years you'd read that I said that the rapture is a blessing for the overcomer, not a blessing for salvation, and I don't think I'm worthy enough to be raptured. Not every church in Revelation 2 and 3 was promised to be spared from the Great Tribulation.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Revelation 2: 7-10

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I think even an amateur bible reader can get the meaning of the underlined portion. You have to be a virtual moron to not get this it's plain and simple and screams rapture/harpazo.

Most denominational churches are amillennialist, or in other words they take the Origen/Augustine approach to Eschatology, allegorical. It's called the "Alexandrian" method if hermeneutics. I know, to us it seems simple, but others don't have a literal approach to Eschatology.

Well my church is missionary baptist by association but we're not amillenialist. The "hour of trial", all you have to do is read the book to see what that's going to be like. This is where those who failed to make the rapture will suffer martyrdom for his namesake. The entire tribulation and great tribulation is a "trial" like what is put on by a court and the Elders are the judges. This means that in order for us to be "kept from the hour of trial" we will have to be physically removed from the earth or changed into our angelic bodies.

Like I said previously, not every believer will be raptured. It's a blessing for the overcomer, not a blessing for salvation. There were 5 unwise virgins in the parable, but they were still virgins nonetheless. I doubt I'll be considered worthy to be raptured myself, and that's cool with me, those raptured have no way of receiving the martyrs crown anyways. I've been hoping for that blessing for years and it's pretty hard being a believer in the United States where persecution is pretty much non-existent.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Innerlight

 

What if the end-times and return of Christ was a personal and spiritual experience?

The End Time started with the preaching of John the Baptist.
The "coming", or "return" of Jesus was the consummation of his victory won with his death and resurrection.
It was the elimination of the religion that was blocking the coming into universal acceptance of the church.
This happened with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

interesting view...but we still had to get to 1844 to complete the last time prophecy of the 2300 years since the rebuilding of the second temple before Jesus would be allowed to come back right?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


This whole rapture theory is very strange to me. The only kind of scenario I see of God removing certain portions of his people from harms way during the tribulation is Him putting the to 'sleep' or else they would not make it through the tribulation. But from my perspective, that is the whole point of the tribulation, to give a great period of testing to sort out who's faith will really stand them by God's side when the heat is on and the whole world seems against you. Hmmm I don't know how this works exactly when God doesn't allow Satan to test you more than your faith can handle. We'll see I guess

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

interesting view...but we still had to get to 1844 to complete the last time prophecy of the 2300 years since the rebuilding of the second temple before Jesus would be allowed to come back right?

It's the historical view of the church. I is not something I just invented.
The reason it seems odd is because of the anti-Christian plot to replace traditional Christianity with gentile-ism which holds the Jews as the chosen people, while the New Testament says those are chosen who believe in Jesus.
1 Peter 1:20
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake.

1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate of those who are disobedient to the gospel of God?

1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.

Luke 16:16
“The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it.

Matthew 11:13,14
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John appeared.
And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, who is to come.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
.... those raptured have no way of receiving the martyrs crown anyways. I've been hoping for that blessing for years and it's pretty hard being a believer in the United States where persecution is pretty much non-existent.

Wow, it's very scary what Christianity can do to a person. People are wishing to die... very creepy.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
.... those raptured have no way of receiving the martyrs crown anyways. I've been hoping for that blessing for years and it's pretty hard being a believer in the United States where persecution is pretty much non-existent.

Wow, it's very scary what Christianity can do to a person. People are wishing to die... very creepy.

Everyone dies for one thing, and for two, this world is crap. For those destined for Heaven this planet is the closest to Hell we'll ever experience, for those destined to Hell this planet is the closest to Heaven they'll ever experience.

Sorry, just ready for my parole.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

This whole rapture theory is very strange to me. The only kind of scenario I see of God removing certain portions of his people from harms way during the tribulation is Him putting the to 'sleep' or else they would not make it through the tribulation. But from my perspective, that is the whole point of the tribulation, to give a great period of testing to sort out who's faith will really stand them by God's side when the heat is on and the whole world seems against you. Hmmm I don't know how this works exactly when God doesn't allow Satan to test you more than your faith can handle. We'll see I guess

Look at it this way. Christ returns to gather all the dead in Him for the marriage supper of the Lamb, and to resurrect them. The "rapture/harpazo/catching away" event is simply the removal of those in Christ who are alive at the time Christ returns to resurrect His own who have passed on. Not to offend, but common sense says folks will be alive on Earth when Christ returns to resurrect His own. There will be folks alive who believe in Him.

Don't get lost in the metaphore methods of speaking. The Dead in Christ is about those that lost the message and are dead in that metaphore fashion.

Some kept the message true, others lost it with the corruptions of the church.

Raising the of the dead in Christ is telling them where they went wrong.


No great miracles, no Michale Jackison Thriller Holloween stuff happening.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yeah, I am just not accustom to using the terminology of 'rapture', whenever I hear someone say it it is using associated with it being pre-tribulation and from that perspective the word always comes across the wrong way to me.
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Well there are heavenly rewards for a martyrs deaths but there is even more for the 144,000.

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Maybe you can't imagine persecution happening in the US but according to prophecy and the historical record of the US fulfilling the characteristics of the Beast of the Earth power that had lamb-like qualities but now speaks like a dragon, I think you will be in for a shock just what the US gets up to. It will be the first country leading others in the institution of the mark of the beast system, it has already given powers to your President to be able to determine whoever he wants as a terrorist and kill, torture or imprison them without any judicial oversight. That law and similar ones have come into the US just in the last 6 months. One search of FEMA camp guillotines reveals they are inline to fulfill prophecy about those who do not take the beast mark being beheaded

All this is even harder to imagine in my own country though as we have had little overall impact from the designed financial collapse affecting most of the developed world. Chaos scenarios seem unlikely but I can see how this can change rapidly as well

reply to post by MagnumOpus


I think you're confusing the scripture that NOTurTYPICAL posted from 1 Thessalonians with other scriptures from the book of Revelation.

Here are the verses from 1 Thessalonians again:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I think the verses below are the verses you are thinking of in Revelation. Notice however, that they do not say "dead in Christ".

So, the martyrs of of the Tribulation experienced the "first resurrection" (as they missed being "caught up" with the already existing believers) in order to reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead were judged after it was over. Remember, the Bible says the "second death" has no power over them. Only the unbelievers are raised from the dead to be judged, only to die again and experience the second death.

Revelation 20:11-14

11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So, in a nutshell, here is what I believe.

I believe those that have faith in Christ before his return are "caught up" to be with the Lord. Those that wait until this event is over to believe and have faith will be forced into martyrdom during the great tribulation to prove that their faith is real. Those that are martyred will be the ones who experience the "first resurrection" and will be reigning with Christ during the 1,000 year reign (the Millennium). After the 1,000 years are over, Satan will be released from the Abyss one last time to deceive all of the nations and the people in it. Then the Lord will show up with his armies (everyone who died in Christ before his second coming) to fight Satan and his minions before the Lord finally casts them into the lake of fire. After Satan is cast into the Lake, the rest of the dead are raised, judged, and given a second death.