Return of Christ and the "end times"

What if the end-times and return of Christ was a personal and spiritual experience? Maybe it's time for some people to rethink the programming handed down by Darby (originator of the rapture theory), Hal Lindsey (Late, Great Planet Earth), Jerry Jenkins (Left Behind series), Harold Camping (May 21 rapture) and let go of faulty assumptions.

A physical return of Christ with its complete destruction of the world, so widely speculated on, is not true. Rather, Christ appears a second time, the Revelation (revealing) of Christ, in the hearts of individual believers, who have prepared the way for him to be revealed in them; he, who has been hidden within, is revealed. As Paul said: it has pleased the Father to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him. The appearance of Christ, his revelation within you, and entering the Kingdom of Heaven is the completion of salvation. Thousands have already experienced Christ's second appearance as revealed within as documented in scripture and in the writings of George Fox and several other 17th Century Quakers.

For more on this (for open-minded, serious seekers only) see also: www.hallvworthington.com...

For scriptural examples of Six Previous Occurances of Christ's return see also: www.hallvworthington.com...

Let the unending debate of the rapture and second coming begin...!!!

It's all in the interpretation folks!

If christ wanted to return I think he would've done it by now lol I think he would've done it before 1950

If this is the case, can you please explain your thoughts on the purpose for the Millennium (Christ's 1,000 year reign) and the Great White Throne Judgement as outlined in Revelation 20?

Thank you.

Originally posted by davidtheriault
If christ wanted to return I think he would've done it by now lol I think he would've done it before 1950

You're right. Here are examples of Christ's previous return(s) to individual believers: www.hallvworthington.com...

reply to post by Innerlight

for some people to rethink the programming handed down by Darby (originator of the rapture theory)

LOL!!!!!

Was Darby alive in the 5th century AD??? The term "rapeimur" was in the Latin Vulgate. It's the term we get the word "rapture" from. The Greek word for rapeimur is "harpazo" it means to be "caught up".

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

1 Thess 4:17

reply to post by Innerlight

You are talking about two different subjects and trying to confuse them.
Belief in the "return" is a much wider topic than belief in the "rapture".
You blame various people for the doctrine of "rapture", but you cannot blame them for the teaching concerning the "return", which everybody can read for themselves in the gospels and the epistles of Paul.
"As the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west [ie instantly and visible to everyone], so will be the coming of the Son of man"- Matthew ch24 v27
"The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command..." 1 Thessalonians ch4 v16
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet".-1 Corinthians ch15 vv51-52
An event in the future, experienced at the same time by everyone remaining in the world. That's the New Testament teaching of the "return of Christ".

Originally posted by Deetermined
If this is the case, can you please explain your thoughts on the purpose for the Millennium (Christ's 1,000 year reign) and the Great White Throne Judgement as outlined in Revelation 20?

Thank you.

He does not say, Christ shall come in person and reign with them, but they shall reign with Christ a thousand years. I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 2 Cor 6:16.

The link I included goes into much detail on this. I'll admit that having studied these subjects for several decades, I've had to rethink many of my previous assumptions in a new light.

Here is a quote from George Fox in the mid 1600's when people were talking about the end times:

"While I was in prison here, the Baptists and fifth-monarchy-men prophesied, that this year (1666) Christ should come, and reign upon earth a thousand years. And they looked upon this reign to be outward; when he had come inwardly in the hearts of his people to reign and rule; these believers would not receive him in their hearts . So they failed in their prophecy and expectation, and did not have the possession of him. But Christ has come, and does dwell and reign in the hearts of his people. Thousands, at the door of whose hearts he has been knocking, have opened to him; and he has come in, and does sup with them, and they with him; the heavenly supper with the heavenly and spiritual man. So many of these Baptists and monarchy-people became the greatest enemies to the followers of Christ, but he reigns in the hearts of his saints over all their envy."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Innerlight

 

for some people to rethink the programming handed down by Darby (originator of the rapture theory)

LOL!!!!!

Was Darby alive in the 5th century AD??? The term "rapeimur" was in the Latin Vulgate. It's the term we get the word "rapture" from. The Greek word for rapeimur is "harpazo" it means to be "caught up".

deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

1 Thess 4:17

edit on 27-5-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Although the phrase "caught-up" was in the Latin Vulgate, the theory of people instanteously and secrety flying up into the sky to meet Jesus in the air and then come back down and sit on a literal throne for a thousand years was not a general assumption. John Darby's secret rapture theory was popularized in the 1800's and included in the Scofield Bible translation. See: www.angelfire.com...

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Innerlight

 

You are talking about two different subjects and trying to confuse them.
Belief in the "return" is a much wider topic than belief in the "rapture".
You blame various people for the doctrine of "rapture", but you cannot blame them for the teaching concerning the "return", which everybody can read for themselves in the gospels and the epistles of Paul.
"As the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west [ie instantly and visible to everyone], so will be the coming of the Son of man"- Matthew ch24 v27
"The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command..." 1 Thessalonians ch4 v16
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet".-1 Corinthians ch15 vv51-52
An event in the future, experienced at the same time by everyone remaining in the world. That's the New Testament teaching of the "return of Christ".

You are quite right. The secret "rapture" theory is different than the return of Christ, although many so-called prophecy experts link them together in their end times "teachings." The return of Christ can be seen as a personal and spiritual experience that has occurred in the lives of numerous people, including Stephen as he was being stoned to death according to the book of Acts. Of course, it is useful to understand why Christ told them that some of them standing there (at the time he was speaking) would see his return.

If you read the complete article in the link it might shed a different light on the subject. It is easy to get locked into a doctrinal assumption or systematic theology teaching, then never really take a look at the full context of Christ's intentions and subsequent events.

See also: www.hallvworthington.com...

Originally posted by Innerlight
The return of Christ can be seen as a personal and spiritual experience that has occurred in the lives of numerous people, including Stephen as he was being stoned to death according to the book of Acts.

Yes, Paul talks about Christians being in Christ, or having Christ in them, and the example of Stephen points to a sense in which those who die meet Christ at their deaths.
All the same, the passages I quoted point towards a single final event additional to those encounters with Christ, a final "winding-up" event, experienced, as i observed, by everyone who is still living at the time.

Originally posted by Innerlight

He does not say, Christ shall come in person and reign with them, but they shall reign with Christ a thousand years. I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 2 Cor 6:16.

Let's take a look at the first three verses of Revelation 20:

1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So, you think God is going to remove Satan from the earth for 1,000 years and then destroy him later without making His own appearance?

Here is a quote from George Fox in the mid 1600's when people were talking about the end times:

"While I was in prison here, the Baptists and fifth-monarchy-men prophesied, that this year (1666) Christ should come, and reign upon earth a thousand years. And they looked upon this reign to be outward; when he had come inwardly in the hearts of his people to reign and rule; these believers would not receive him in their hearts . So they failed in their prophecy and expectation, and did not have the possession of him. But Christ has come, and does dwell and reign in the hearts of his people. Thousands, at the door of whose hearts he has been knocking, have opened to him; and he has come in, and does sup with them, and they with him; the heavenly supper with the heavenly and spiritual man. So many of these Baptists and monarchy-people became the greatest enemies to the followers of Christ, but he reigns in the hearts of his saints over all their envy."

Well, something failed in the explanation above because God said that Satan would be thrown into the Lake of Fire after the 1,000 years were over and I think it's more than obvious that he still reigns on earth today.

Revelation 20:10

10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And the last time I looked, the earth still had a sea.

Revelation 21:1

1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

It looks like Revelation 21:3 says something different from 2 Corinthians 6:16. It doesn't say God will dwell IN them, but WITH them.

Revelation 21:3

3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Now, let's reflect on this particular verse that you mentioned earlier...

Matthew 24:34

4) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

When Jesus mentions "this generation", He's talking about the generation who witnesses these things:

Matthew 24:14

14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:21

21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So, do you really think the tribulation and war that these people witnessed in those days were the worst that EVER SHALL BE since the BEGINNING OF THE WORLD?

I don't.

Originally posted by Innerlight

A physical return of Christ with its complete destruction of the world, so widely speculated on, is not true. Rather, Christ appears a second time, the Revelation (revealing) of Christ, in the hearts of individual believers, who have prepared the way for him to be revealed in them; he, who has been hidden within, is revealed. As Paul said: it has pleased the Father to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him. The appearance of Christ, his revelation within you, and entering the Kingdom of Heaven is the completion of salvation. Thousands have already experienced Christ's second appearance as revealed within as documented in scripture and in the writings of George Fox and several other 17th Century Quakers.

Most of what you are telling is consistent with the Essene, Therapute, and Jesus view for Reincarnation. It happens in the individual believers as they dig deeply into the Jesus The Way Message. You have to undestand the Last Supper's replacement of Sacrifices.

When you dig deeply enough you find the Essene, Therapute and Jesus wanted Heaven to be right here on Earth, and stem from everyone finding these truths of religion that are sometimes hard to understand.

All of the old religions came from the issues of the Annunaki theme for god, even the one for Jesus. Jesus method of the Way was a better way to comprehind god and depart from the 2nd temple and Babylon's ways. It was a shift from wars and killings to love thy neighbor, provide good stewardship to all others, live in a socialized harmony.

All the Jesus theme for the Return is based on the theme of Reincarnation. If everyone can get on board with the Jesus simple truths the world can move past the embellished miracles and into a kinder gentler world and peace.

Reincarnation isn't difficult to see in these writings.

If folks want Jesus back then do some work with learning a good bit more, and take the steps up Jacob's ladder and you will come to understand Jesus The Way.

You won't find this at your local organized churches, which don't teach how to find Jesus Reincarnate within the person's personal learning. The organized churches are blind to the greater details of Yahway and the serpent symbolism of old that involve this special blood theme. It was a time for great changes on Earth, which happened before the times of Noah, which the Bible totally ignores because they could not explain the mystery.

Today, we can largely begin to explain the mystery. And with that comes the better knowledge for finding Jesus The Way message explained more clearly.

reply to post by Innerlight

Although the phrase "caught-up" was in the Latin Vulgate, the theory of people instanteously and secrety flying up into the sky to meet Jesus in the air and then come back down and sit on a literal throne for a thousand years was not a general assumption. John Darby's secret rapture theory was popularized in the 1800's and included in the Scofield Bible translation. See: www.angelfire.com...

I'm thrilled you used the correct term "popularized". Most anti-rapture folks make the mistake of claiming Darby "invented" the idea/doctrine, which isn't true whatsoever. Church history is littered with quotes of men in the church teaching about the catching away of the bride. But the term "harpazo" implies/means a snatching away out of harm's way. It would basically be like a person grabbing someone by the hair and yanking them out of the path of danger.

But even if no church fathers taught it, Paul and Christ both did. Paul in Thessalonians and Christ in the parable of the 10 virgins and in the letters to the 7 churches. There is no "secret" rapture, it's a blessing for the overcomer, not a blessing for salvation. Judgment first must come to the house of God before the unrepentant world. Christ said to pray that we be accounted worthy to escape all these evils coming upon the world. And to be perfectly honest with you, I don't think I'm adequately sanctified yet if the rapture were to happen today.

reply to post by Innerlight

Of course, it is useful to understand why Christ told them that some of them standing there (at the time he was speaking) would see his return.

WOW, go re-read that, you're missing something HUGE. He NEVER said "My return"...

Hint: Transfiguration

reply to post by Innerlight

What if the end-times and return of Christ was a personal and spiritual experience?

The End Time started with the preaching of John the Baptist.
The "coming", or "return" of Jesus was the consummation of his victory won with his death and resurrection.
It was the elimination of the religion that was blocking the coming into universal acceptance of the church.
This happened with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Most anti-rapture folks make the mistake of claiming Darby "invented" the idea/doctrine, which isn't true whatsoever. Church history is littered with quotes of men in the church teaching about the catching away of the bride.

That is just something you heard on a YouTube video.
Can you actually quote any of those?

reply to post by Innerlight

A physical return of Christ with its complete destruction of the world, so widely speculated on, is not true. Rather, Christ appears a second time, the Revelation (revealing) of Christ, in the hearts of individual believers, who have prepared the way for him to be revealed in them; he, who has been hidden within, is revealed.

Really? Cuz i seem to remember Jesus saying the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Mark 13: 14-27

14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

The Coming of the Son of Man

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Jesus just called you a liar. Ouch. Right there underlined portion. When he spoke this he was not using prophetic language. I am sorry but you are wrong.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here we go with your nonsense "youtube video" garbage, give it up, you're not offending me. As if no one can read a Bible. A plain reading of the text leads to a pre-trib rapture of the bride prior to the second advent of Christ. Just a plain, literal reading of the text. I don't apologize for that being offensive to you and others. Deal with it, I'll still take the Bible at face value.

Shepperd of Hermes:

"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."

(It will be possible to escape the coming tribulation??)

"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution."

~ Victorinus (commentary on the book of Revelation)


And Edward Irving taught a pre-trib rapture of the bride long before Darby popularized it. In fact, he claimed the Philadelphian church would be raptured and the Laodecian church would be left behind. Darby only popularized the rapture teaching that had all but been obliterated by the catholic Church and the Reformers who were all ammillinialists.