Do I have freedom FROM religion?

reply to post by SaturnFX


I just wanted to let you know a very important concept from paganism.

God can actually be plural or multi-faceted. And it was commonplace among various meta-deities throughout many cultures.

For example, deities such as Mithra or Ra, can easily be representative of a multitude of minor deity figures who each represent specific aspects.

In a sense, many mythologies appear to be composed of vast pantheons of gods and goddesses, but if you study closely you can often begin grouping them under larger categories and merging them into meta-deities.

For example the ancient Greek Historian Herodotus wrote explicitly in 5th century BC, that the "Persians (Achaemenids)", "worship the sun, moon, and earth, fire, water, and winds", as Mithra, and then he equates this with "Aphrodite" and the Arabian "Alilat". (This implies that both Aphrodite and Alilat were major deities that represented vast multitudes of aspects or their own minor or mini-pantheons).

Also keep in mind that "Mithra" was considered male and female. Bi-gender. God and Goddess simultaneously.

We can find similar parallel meta-deities in cultures world wide, it is quite commonplace even today.
You must exercise discernment in order to separate the misunderstandings from the facts.

So when it says "In God we trust", this could technically and semantically actually be considered plural depending on what the context is. If it is a pagan reference, than it can easily be explained as a virtual pantheon combined under one major deity figure (which is common historically).

If you have any other questions I would be happy to help find answers even if we have to do some research and look them up.

Oh and here is a link to a great book that I suggest everyone take a glance at:
Suns of God

Originally posted by SaturnFX


My creator (aka, my mother) taught me that its good to get source material in order to back up a claim.


So, your thoughts...do we have freedom from religion?

Selfish, vain and totally expecting of others,
What's new FX. Not only are you a bad student of your mother's teachings .Or your mama is a terrible teacher. But ----
Your post has not one source . Your question about do YOU have freedom From religion is best answered by getting yourself a ticket to a Communist country where you can wallow in your self indulgence.
Don't let the door---
LOL ljb

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Ultimately -- belief in Govt is the religion.

Do I have freedom from anyone with a higher education? You know education has a way to bend a person's mind and I just do not like it. I also don't like anyone with an education using it on me. All those social sciences and Philosophies affect people's judgment, morals and values and it is just not right for anyone to use any of it around me.

Wait I don't like people with religion either for it effects their judgment, morals and values too, and so no one with religion or education should associate with me for in both cases they are infringing on my FREEDOM!!!

Originally posted by rainbowbear
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

Ultimately -- belief in Govt is the religion.

Religion is organization and institutionalization of belief through dogmatic doctrine.

Beliefs are faith based and usually reinforced by "authority" or "cultural tradition".
Notice the word "Culture" itself refers to religion indoctrination.
Culture, when broken down into prefix and suffix literally means " The result of the Cult".

People always support culture as something worthwhile and meaningful, but are they in reality merely pushing their indoctrinated beliefs upon others ? Possibly but not in all cases obviously. However in many cases we can indeed claim safely that many people are simply repeating what they were taught by their predecessors or society.

Government is a form of religion backed by violent force and vast economic resources.
But at the same time, you cannot show me a single organized group that exists which cannot be construed as a cult-like religious belief system.
Military, corporate, NGO's, what have you.
They all believe in something which keeps them involved in the groups practices, and almost always these beliefs are highly subjective, bias, and opinionated.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
So, here is a question I have then...I have freedom of religion in the United States...I can choose whatever I want, be it christianity, buddism, spaghetti'ism, etc.

But, do I have freedom from religion? Can I go to public places and not have my children or I indoctrinated into any form?

If yes, then why are some wanting to have teacher lead prayers back in school, under god in the pledge, or in god we trust stamped on the money? This is not freedom from religion..so, how is it constitutionally applicable. If paganism become mainstream again, do we then change the money to "In the gods we trust"? change the pledge to "Under The Gods"?

If no, then which religion specifically is the state sponsored religion (some constitutional references showing the imposition of religion on the citizens would be helpful for my understanding. My creator (aka, my mother) taught me that its good to get source material in order to back up a claim.


So, your thoughts...do we have freedom from religion?

No, you can't have freedom from religion. You have the right to refuse to have any religion, but that does not mean that you can (because you don't like it) wipe religion from society.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Do I have freedom from anyone with a higher education? You know education has a way to bend a person's mind and I just do not like it. I also don't like anyone with an education using it on me. All those social sciences and Philosophies affect people's judgment, morals and values and it is just not right for anyone to use any of it around me.

Wait I don't like people with religion either for it effects their judgment, morals and values too, and so no one with religion or education should associate with me for in both cases they are infringing on my FREEDOM!!!

I totally get that you are being sarcastic so my reply here isn't really to you Xtro but instead to anyone else who doesn't get your sarcasm.

Everyone has the freedom to speak in public or display their symbolism. However, we do not have the freedom to prevent them from doing so in public. This is a repression of freedom rather than promoting it.

By preventing others from exercising their beliefs in public, this is tyranny because it requires a crack-down.

However at the same time, public (government funded) institutions are not Constitutionally allowed to exercise any particular religious belief unless they are willing to show counter beliefs equally and without bias. They break these rules all the time and get away with it but I digress, it isn't technically legal.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

But, do I have freedom from religion? Can I go to public places and not have my children or I indoctrinated into any form?

We could take this all the way beyond Nazi Germany.

For example, crosses at churches are visible from miles away in many cases.
What can we tear them down and censor that? No.

However, if they put this religious symbol on a government institution, than it is a legitimate case of government favoring religion and thus must be rectified. We need to make sure we determine the ownership of the property of which the displays occur at.

Public property = free game for expression.
Government property = governed by Constitutional decree
Private property = At discretion of property owner.

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Saturn, you bring a valid, philosophical and political question to the table. One that we all know has deep roots of faction, vitriol, angst and passion; from all sides. I believe that even an answer given though will not quell a large portion of attitudes and beliefs held on this subject.

To start off, we give the understanding of the limits that are held to the Government -- more specifically Congress -- in terms of "religion".

First Amendment; US Constitution

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

We can see that the following areas are off limits, when it comes to Congress: drafting legislation that would declare a religion to be the religion or that the People and States are to recognize it; and limit the freedom of people to practice religion (and by extension the non-practice of religion) as they see fit.

The first part is usually where this debate comes from. It is what many wonder if Congress cannot make legislation that establishes a religion, how can they coin money with the national motto "In God we Trust" on it; 36 USC § 302 - National motto and the statutes that make it law to coin the money with it; 31 USC § 5112 - Denominations, specifications, and design of coins? What about the pledge; 4 USC § 4 - Pledge of allegiance to the flag?

The Courts, in LYNCH v. DONNELLY, 465 U.S. 668 (1984) gave this opinion in regards to the Establishment Clause:

The Constitution does not require complete separation of church and state; it affirmatively mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions, and forbids hostility toward any. Anything less would require the "callous indifference,"...that was never intended by the Establishment Clause.

Also,

Rather than taking an absolutist approach in applying the Establishment Clause and mechanically invalidating all governmental conduct or statutes that confer benefits or give special recognition to religion in general or to one faith, this Court has scrutinized challenged conduct or legislation to determine whether, in reality, it establishes a religion or religious faith or tends to do so.

( emphasis added )

So what then, constitutes as an establishment or endorsement of religion? Shouldn't "In God We Trust" be viewed as Government endorsing religion? If so, which religion? Can we not replace the Christian held view that God is Jesus -- or the Jewish belief that God is Yahweh -- or the atheist view that God is nothing? Merely printing such upon our money or use as a national motto doesn't preclude an endorsement of any religion, but rather the respect towards all walks of life; religious or not; that were the heritage of this nation.

The very same reasoning can be seen, since the founding of the nation, that the First Congress didn't see an endorsement nor establishment of religion by having a chaplain open and close a session of Congress. The very same why the pledge, while voluntary; can be recited by a teacher and not be seen as an establishment of religion.

edit on 26-5-2012 by ownbestenemy because: Grammar

A star and the tip of my hat to you dear sir
Where does the insanity come from. America was fought for and ESTABLISHED so ALL
could practice their Choice of religion or not.
How any why would any one not totally ignorant of this concept be remotely in contempt of IT.
???ljb

Originally posted by SaturnFX
But, do I have freedom from religion? Can I go to public places and not have my children or I indoctrinated into any form?

Too late for that... you've already BEEN indoctrinated.

How do I know this? Because you are doing exactly what they WANT you to do. The elite created religion as a Mind Control tool with a hidden agenda that aims to blind and misguide you away from the truth. Do you not see that their entire agenda revolves around permanently separating us from God? This is how they keep you from knowing God and blind as to what God is really like! Religion is the original programming and mind-control mechanism designed to make you hate God and want nothing to do with Him. ALL pagan religions of mass destruction are controlled by Satan!

Religion was manufactured long ago by men who wished to control the masses. Different religions were created in different places to suit the needs and beliefs of the area, and it was intended to serve as a crutch. The leaders of these regions used religion to enslave their people, and religion continues to be such an evil. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control.

When the Illuminati was formed, it was evident that religion was something that could keep the masses dumb and ignorant to what was really happening around them. Is this not what has happened? Because of religion, the Illuminati has been able to work in secret for many, many years.

The gods that are relative to each religion are continually manufactured in the minds of those that are enslaved. The indoctrination of the masses by religion has led to a brainwashed society that is easy for the Illuminati to take control of. Every major religion in the world has been infiltrated by the Illuminati. A group that calls themselves Light Feet has installed Illuminati members in every major religion of the world. The purpose of these Light Feet is to ensure that the masses are controlled by their respective religion. Source

Religion can be the greatest enemy of God, because it is Satan's greatest deception. Whether it worships in all the beauty of an outward show, like Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, or Robert Schuller, or in the inner sanctum of the soul, like the desert fathers, it makes no difference, it is all the same deception. Aren't we all aware by now how sublime thoughts of philosophy, poetry, music, art, and the stage go hand-in-hand with moral degeneracy and perversion? How very close to the truth all of this seems to come, but, ultimately reveals its roots in deception.

As a consequence we have all the wide variations of religion and the never-ending search for the truth about God and this thing that drives us. It is like taking all the fake gems of the world and putting them in a big fish bowl along with one authentic precious gem and trying to pick out the real one. It would be impossible, unless you had knowledge of gems, help from someone who knows gems, or inside information on what to look for. LINK

Oh gosh FX this is Memorial Day.
Do you have a handle on anything like THIS.
I think not. A BASHER is a VOID for the future.
I hope you are not one.
Have you ever heard this at a re- enactment??
The Gettysburg Address by Abraham Lincoln
showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm - Similarto The Gettysburg Address by Abraham Lincoln

The Gettysburg Address. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania November 19, 1863. On June 1, 1865, Senator Charles Sumner commented on what is now considered the ...

My favorite part---

It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Devotion YOU GOT SOME FX ???

reply to post by SaturnFX


NO

second

reply to post by muzzleflash


this is a small point but Public Property is really property that the Govt controls all interest in.

this is why they do as they wish with "our" public property. if they wanted to put a cross on it they have every legal right to do so.

www.caves.org...
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Originally posted by SaturnFX
So, here is a question I have then...I have freedom of religion in the United States...I can choose whatever I want, be it christianity, buddism, spaghetti'ism, etc.

But, do I have freedom from religion? Can I go to public places and not have my children or I indoctrinated into any form?

If yes, then why are some wanting to have teacher lead prayers back in school, under god in the pledge, or in god we trust stamped on the money? This is not freedom from religion..so, how is it constitutionally applicable. If paganism become mainstream again, do we then change the money to "In the gods we trust"? change the pledge to "Under The Gods"?

If no, then which religion specifically is the state sponsored religion (some constitutional references showing the imposition of religion on the citizens would be helpful for my understanding. My creator (aka, my mother) taught me that its good to get source material in order to back up a claim.


So, your thoughts...do we have freedom from religion?

Do I have freedom from comments I don't enjoy? Do I have freedom from races of people besides mine? We thank God that prejudice is absent in most of us. Freedom demands the marketplace of ideas remains free. Otherwise, someone will eventually want to be free from you and your mindset. Better to thank the God who gave you the freedom to even ask the question. The world is not a place where we eliminate the perspectives we fear. Truth rises in the marketplace of ideas when men are free to allow the room.

Find a copy of the bill of rights. Memorize. After that, read Title 18 of US Code.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Don't have to read it, don't have to respond to it, don't care:

But:
I'll give you a hint: stating things doesn't make it so. So, if someone wants to add that, seriously, then no, I don't give a rat's bum about it. Add "hail Satan" to the pledge. What I won't do, is say that part of the pledge, and I'd encourage others to not do so either. I'd even offer education as to why it was a dumb move on the part of the person who instigated adding it in. But I certainly wouldn't freak out enough to ban all Democratic opinion on Republicans altogether.

It's called "Rendering Unto Caesar". The pledge isn't my faith, the dollar bill isn't printed to my God. That's one of the reason when they toned down on the whole praying in schools, I wasn't phased: the school wasn't my congregation.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Actually, in my state? No problem. Get your home declared your school (cheap and easy to do) and write your graduation certificate on a napkin. All legal. (Should know, brother had to do it for being allergic to the school.)

reply to post by TheRedneck

Menorah. It's a religious tradition from the Maccabeean era. Basically, during a battle (likely with the Greeks), they didn't have enough oil to last the needed time...and it lasted for a week. Something like that.

reply to post by SaturnFX

More universal, sure, across the world, but the word "God" has got the lead in this country, for now.

reply to post by whyamIhere


lol, I make it a sort-of rule of thumb that if the thread goes hot, it's likely time to leave. Same 4 people arguing over the same position over and over. If I cannot make my point in a handful of posts, I really need to think about what I'm doing.

And the sad part is I love debate.
reply to post by rainbowbear

Lol, maybe not for all, but for some of them? Certainly.
reply to post by ownbestenemy
Just declaring it, no laws to reinforce that I cannot worship my God? I'd say that it's about time that this country accepts that it is Godless.

It comes with restrictions on my personal worship?

Then it's time to pull a Daniel. The man was ordered by his king to only worship the King (law engineered by men who had a grudge against him). So Daniel went into his bedroom, threw open a window and sat in front of it where anyone passing could see that he was praying, in his own home, to someone other than the King.

Rebellion against the country Christians live in is governed by "rendering unto Caesar's what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". No Government, no matter what their laws are, has the right to dictate whom I worship, and THAT is worth dying for. Although I'd rather live.

Of course. As long as you're not compelled to obey or pay for something against your beliefs.

But it's tricky to define religion. Etymology of the word doesn't help, either. Infact, to be frank, I don't even believe there is such a thing as religion outside academia.

reply to post by SaturnFX


You dont have a "freedom from" being exposed to or confronted by religion in public places. You may be able to bring a claim based on establishment against thr government for prayer in school or the money thing. But as for some random person handing your kid a bible in the park, no, you have no freedom from that. That would be absurd.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Do I have freedom from anyone with a higher education? You know education has a way to bend a person's mind and I just do not like it. I also don't like anyone with an education using it on me. All those social sciences and Philosophies affect people's judgment, morals and values and it is just not right for anyone to use any of it around me.

Wait I don't like people with religion either for it effects their judgment, morals and values too, and so no one with religion or education should associate with me for in both cases they are infringing on my FREEDOM!!!

Yeah, you know I am all of those things.
LOL But you know what? I see the value in YOU because I know without a doubt YOU are my EQUAL more IN common than OUT.
Hi I am ljb, How are you? Screw FX untill he get's it.
Cheers ljb

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

You dont have a "freedom from" being exposed to or confronted by religion in public places. You may be able to bring a claim based on establishment against thr government for prayer in school or the money thing. But as for some random person handing your kid a bible in the park, no, you have no freedom from that. That would be absurd.

As I remember, I think he has no children. Hence his fore shortened thinking.