Do I have freedom FROM religion?

Religion is horrible?

Originally posted by Jagermeister
So quoting Jesus as he states:

Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied…. But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.

Would mean the Pope living in a palace is a contradiction? Not a good example of how religion is inherently good to be sure. Most churchs choosing to be exempt from taxation while their flock struggles to keep the lights on is this higher standard you speak of?

The great world Religions - Catholicism included - have invested a lot of effort into helping the poor. Jesus words about the poor is the basis of Christian charity and altruism.

reply to post by Jagermeister and post by lucid eyes

Of course "Allah" translates to "the God". To use my previous example, someone working at Microsoft speaking of "the CEO" would be talking about Bill Gates.

The difference between title and name is that a title is dependent on the person using it, while a name is absolute. Ask a Muslim what the name of God is and they will respond "Allah". Ask a Christian the same thing and they will respond "Jehovah" (or possibly "Jesus", but that is a touchy subject). Ask a Jew the same question and they will respond "Yahweh".

All are God to their followers. But all have different names.

TheRedneck

reply to post by jiggerj

It's not that atrocities happen, it's removing one less motive by shutting down religion.

Eh.... Actually that's a matter of perspective.
I see religions being "good" for society....as opposed to a lack of religion.

My reason :
The number of results when I google "christian/muslim/hindu + charities/hospitals/orphanages"....
in comparison to the results of a google search of "atheist charities/hospitals/orpahanages".

So shutting down religion means we also shut need to down those charities, hospitals and orphanages started by religious folks. So... no thanks

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
, they didn't act in the name of atheism, but the point is that even people with a lack of belief in God are capable of committing atrocities.

You nailed it.

Insane people are going to do insane things. It's not that atrocities happen, it's removing one less motive by shutting down religion.

Even in the reverse, if we all followed non-violent religious beliefs then Stalin, Hitler and all the other lunatics would have been tolerated and forgiven. Atheism would've put a bullet in their heads much sooner.

See but we are still nothing more than children reading bed time stories. When humanity wants to grow up and stand on it's own 2 feet without the crutch of a 2000 year old book, the chains that enslave us will be broken. Shutting down religion would do no good the same as throwing out a child's bed time book would make him scream for a new one.

reply to post by lucid eyes


Unfortunately they always invest in CONDITIONS of said Help...thus making it actually FAR worse than before.

Anyone who believes they speak for God to the masses is in big trouble...since anyone can see they are FAR from "God" in the actions they do, it is only for looking good, and subterfuge, control.

reply to post by Jagermeister


Alot more crutches exist than you can see...those books are just distractions for the ones who enjoy FEARING something that is greater than them.

The ones who have created this slightly skewed energy field feast upon EVERYONE in one way or another, noone needs 2000 year old books to bitch about...but they sure do like too !!

I don't see why so many people have a problem with the word God. Its like everytime they hear the word that represents something you cant put a face on immediately the most ignorant of people are the ones who derive some kind of hatred for the word out of spite towards organized religion, and cringe at anything that's loving, sweet or kind, or wholesome, because they refuse to repent of their wickedness regardless of if were talking about the Bible here or not.

I think its because people instantly when they think of God they associate an image of God instead of what God is to them, the creator or everything, the holder of all things righteous, virtue, truth, love.

I think the people that have a problem with God is a much deeper rooted issue. It stems from their own depression, lack of self worth, anger, ect. Which In turn separates you from understanding God. Just like with anything in life its dependent on your outlook, your attitude, what amount you give to see it from someone's perspective, or to turn away from a viewpoint. Its entirely up to you.

That's one of the biggest problems in the world, is self accountability.

Originally posted by EnigmaticDill
I don't see why so many people have a problem with the word God. Its like everytime they hear the word that represents something you cant put a face on immediately the most ignorant of people are the ones who derive some kind of hatred for the word out of spite towards organized religion, and cringe at anything that's loving, sweet or kind, or wholesome, because they refuse to repent of their wickedness regardless of if were talking about the Bible here or not.

I think its because people instantly when they think of God they associate an image of God instead of what God is to them, the creator or everything, the holder of all things righteous, virtue, truth, love.

I think the people that have a problem with God is a much deeper rooted issue. It stems from their own depression, lack of self worth, anger, ect. Which In turn separates you from understanding God. Just like with anything in life its dependent on your outlook, your attitude, what amount you give to see it from someone's perspective, or to turn away from a viewpoint. Its entirely up to you.

That's one of the biggest problems in the world, is self accountability.

edit on 27-5-2012 by EnigmaticDill because: (no reason given)

Another issue would be seeing your own point of view as the absolute truth while viewing any other point of view as a "rooted issue". Where is the proof this "word of God" is the actual word of God? Because all I see is a 2000 year old book put together with tales of other religions that predate the book by thousands of years. All I see is contradiction. I do not see the "word of God" when I look at mainstream religion. Does this mean I'm insane because I look beyond what's put infront of me and ask questions? Do I not hold myself accountable? Am I depressed because I don't take a 2000 year old book's word as absolute truth or it's threats as reality?

That's one of the biggest problem in the world, too many people believe whatever they're told.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
The single fallacy in your argument, OP, is that you seem to think the government is not comprised of people. Accepting a job from the government does not in any way reduce the government agent's inalienable right to freedom of their religion. That means they have the right to follow the deity of their choosing, as you have the right to follow no deity. That means they have the right to practice their religion just as you have the right to practice none. That means they have the right to express their religion to others just as you have the right to express your disapproval of their religion.

Your rights do not trump the rights of others.

You do have the right to demand that you or your children not be required to pray in any government-sanctioned event. You do not have the right to demand that others be prohibited from praying in a similar circumstance. If, for instance, a teacher says a prayer in front of the class, that is the teacher's right. If a teacher demands that your child repeat after them, then that violates your right. So far as I know, nowhere in the US does a public school allow such.

It's the same old argument that I hear from people who are so upset that they have to hear others talking about their religion. No one has a right to force others to be silent! Everyone has the right to say what they think about the matter.

Now that I've covered the right, let's talk about simple tolerance. Can you not tolerate someone else having the same rights you do? Can you not tolerate someone asking you attend church with them? Why is that such a heinous thing? I don't attend a formal church, but I am constantly asked if I would like to go to church with someone... I simply smile and say "Thank you, but I'm not much of a church-goer". If they press on too far, I either leave or tell them to please drop it. I do not try to deny them their right to speak because I do not wish to be denied the right to speak.

Anger and resentment, which both cannot exist unless the person feeling chooses to allow them to exist, lead to bitterness and segregation. Bitterness and segregation lead to injustice and bigotry. Bigotry leads to subjugation and abuse. These then lead to misery and suffering.

Acceptance and tolerance lead to respect. Respect leads to equality. Equality leads to happiness for all.

TheRedneck

I guess the question that iv'e always had a hard time with is this; Why do people feel it necessary to sustain their spiritual/religious beliefs as anything other than a personal ideology? In other words, why even talk about it at all? That only builds walls between us. Why do people feel the need to put a label on their spirituality? Do people really go to church to read bible quotes and praise their God? That can be done from the comfort of your own home. Can it not? Or is it more to reassure yourself that you "chose" the correct religion, by surrounding yourself with others that are looking for the same reassurance? Personally, details and specifics constituting my belief system can probably be found within, and in many instances have been taken directly from, the writings of every organized religious sect. My religion has not a name, nor a bible. For it is ever-evolving. Providing me the peace of mind in never having to make a "choice". Why does it matter to "you" (theres probably no need to say that when i say "you", i don't mean you specifically, of course), what "I" believe anyway? If i end up burning in "Hell" for decisions i make, why do "you" care? Because, what you may see as trying to save me, is having the opposite affect on the world as a whole. And why must we debate what cannot be proven anyway? Its not only a waste of time and energy, but it divides humanity and breeds conflict. Which ultimately has lead to the death of millions of innocent human beings. Was that God's intent??

Originally posted by lucid eyes

Originally posted by jiggerj
removing one less motive by shutting down religion.

Why not just respect other views than your own?

Hey, I'm all for it. As long as each view is coming from different sides of logical argument. As long as it doesn't teach children that they will burn in hell. As long as it doesn't make savage torture look like a beautiful thing like beating a man bloody and staking him to a cross, spearing him in the side and then giving him poison to drink. AS long as it doesn't preach death to all those that don't worship allah.

Religion is SICK SICK SICK! Yet, many believe that good works are done in the name of religion and/or god. That's complete bull. Good deeds are done by good people whether or not they are affiliated with any organization. Good deeds are done IN SPITE of religion.

The state forces it's religious morality down your throat with such laws as "thou shall not steal" and "thou shall not kill". So even if you are an anti-theist who opposes such morality, you're apparantly out of luck in this oppressive theocracy.

Yes, you have freedom from religion. No one is forcing you to follow a type of religion. But it appears that some of you don't want freedom of expression.

I also happen to notice these types of threads are always anti-Christian, why is that? There is another religion a great deal more dangerous then Christianity these days.

reply to post by Firewater


I find your monologue full of logical holes. On one hand you are saying, "why can't you practice your religion alone? why push it on other people?" But the irony is that by stating that, you are essentially pushing your own ideology on those who practice any particular religion. In other words, "keep it to yourself" is just as intolerant as you accuse the religious zealots to be.

In particular with Christianity, since I am a Christian if you label me as such, is that part of living out the faith is to spread the news about Jesus and what He means to humanity. Someone who doesn't speak to others about their convictions about Jesus would not be Christian. I can get into this more if you'd like.

Secondly, I find it interesting that people still complain about religion. The very people who run the world, the Illuminati, came out of the enlightenment period as the group to ruin the religious stronghold on society and culture. In other words, many of you who complain about religious oppression would love to join the Illuminati. And in place of the outward oppression of the historical religious institution (which I am not in agreement with both spiritually, or politically) a secret movement has been instituted where the truth about how things are run are hidden.

So in essence, "keeping it to yourself" is what groups like the Illuminati did, but using their influence behind the scenes, we find ourselves in the situation we are in now. Interesting.

Originally posted by Innerlight
The state forces it's religious morality down your throat with such laws as "thou shall not steal" and "thou shall not kill". So even if you are an anti-theist who opposes such morality, you're apparantly out of luck in this oppressive theocracy.

do you think we should have the right to murder or steal if we wanted to?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by jiggerj

 

It's not that atrocities happen, it's removing one less motive by shutting down religion.

Eh.... Actually that's a matter of perspective.
I see religions being "good" for society....as opposed to a lack of religion.

My reason :
The number of results when I google "christian/muslim/hindu + charities/hospitals/orphanages"....
in comparison to the results of a google search of "atheist charities/hospitals/orpahanages".

So shutting down religion means we also shut need to down those charities, hospitals and orphanages started by religious folks. So... no thanks

If proof positive was discovered that there is no god, I guarantee you those organizations would keep on running without skipping a beat. Because the people working there are good people, not religious people.

Seeing that this thread is under political issues I will add, If someone exposes their private parts in public they can't be protected by our right of Freedom of Expression. So, why should a dangerous thing like Islam or Christianity be protected by Freedom of Religion?

Originally posted by SaturnFX

So, your thoughts...do we have freedom from religion?

No, you don't.

Religion is about morality ... it's our moral sense. That in our prayers it is God, that dictates to use the rules of a good life, etc, is not a bad thing.

But those religions are old, and worn out ... so, you are free to decide you wish to live according to scientific principles.

But, and here is a the great part of it ... if you want freedom from "religion", than you want freedom from "morality".

And basically, any freedom from morality ... is not a choice.

So, however you throw this, up or down ... you end up with some sort of belief system. And, this belief system must include morals ... we don't want mad dogs going around, thinking it's ok to eat someone face of in Florida, because there is no God, and he can then endulge himself in whatever he wants ...

Morality, and moral pledge is a must ...

I have to say, I came in hear with an open mind but once again it's just the old tired clichés. Religion is mind control blah blah blah. Is there ever real debates on religious issues here or just a one-sided echo chamber? Im not sure how anybody grows intellectually sitting around saying "the Yankees suck! (religion), yeah go red sox"

But to address the OPs question. I hope your just being sarcastic when you ask if people have right to pray in public, etc. Otherwise it may be time to go back to Mrs. Carter's 3rd grade civics class. It's really funny, the militant atheists are so quick to demonize Christians as "slaves". But yet there the only ones I see advocating getting rid of one of our most fundamental rights (so much so it was made the 1st amendment) and turning us back into actual slaves. First my right to religion, next your freedom of speech. Your blind if you think otherwise.

But serious question. You people that start the Christ-hater threads. What is it that you really want? Be honest. Religious people arrested? A new atheist constitution with no religious freedoms? Put a bullet in religions head? Deport Christians? I'm being serious. Because you have to know there is zero chance religious people will stop praying in public, etc....

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


Absolutely!!! You should have the free will to do what ever you want... Good people choose not to do those things! Good people do not have too be told not to do them.

reply to post by Jagermeister

I work part-time as a math tutor at the local college. Every day I am there I watch people who look at the lessons set in front of them with this blank expression. They do not understand. Yet, the laws of physics, based on mathematical principles, still work for them. Their cars still run; their phones still work; gravity still keeps them in their seats.

My job, of course, is to help them to understand. I think I do that pretty well. I cannot, however, help those who do not wish to be helped.

A student can come in, watch the videos, read the books, ask questions, and try to understand. That student will almost always make a good grade and leave at the end of the semester with a deeper understanding of the world around them. A student can come in, twiddle with the mouse, talk to their friends, text, and ignore the material in front of them. That student will fail, without exception, and leave at the end of the semester knowing no more than they did the first day.

Both these students can walk out to their car, turn the key, make contact between the connections, send electrical current through a circuit to energize a solenoid coil in the starter, connect more contacts, send a huge surge of electricity through the windings in the electric starter motor, induce motion from the newly-created magnetic fields, induce inertial forces from the sudden motion to move the starter gear into contact with the flywheel, transfer the rotary motion to the engine itself, create vertical motion in the pistons while operating the valve train, instigate fuel combustion inside the cylinders, and start the car.

Either one can do that. Physics still works for both.

But the former student can understand why the car starts. He/she can possibly repair the car should something go wrong and it not crank properly sometime. He/she can dream of and develop new and better ways to make a car start. He/she can communicate at a higher plane with a mechanic when the car needs repair. The latter student cannot.

The former student saw information to be considered and learned. The latter saw a boring book.

I know you see a boring 2000-year-old book. That's fine; just as in the case of the latter student above, that is your prerogative. That prerogative, however, does not mean that because you see it as such, it really is such, no more than the student seeing the book as irrelevant makes it irrelevant. It can be irrelevant to you, because you are free to choose your path, but it can at the same time be very relevant for others.

And just as I can tell when a student tells me math is boring and irrelevant that they will not get the lesson and will not pass, so I can tell when anyone mentions a "2000-year-old fairy-tale book" that they not only have not bothered to actually read it, but they have no understanding of what is inside it. They have made a choice, as is their right, to ignore information; everything said past that point must be taken knowing that.

Your description may be "cool" and politically popular and make you feel good about the situation, but understand what it shows to others.

TheRedneck