Riddle me this christians

reply to post by denver22


eh thats a matter of perspective. This is the question that popped into my head one day that broke me free of a belief I find incorrect. I asked a couple of preachers and got threats of hellfire as a response and so began my journey into other religions and the eventual agnostic based belief I have today. The liberation has been the best thing that has happened to me spiritually

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin
So in reference to christianity... If god is omnipotent... all seeing, all knowing, all powerful. God knew the results of creating lucifer. God knew what lucifer would one day do (remember god is omnipotent now) God knew that humans would sin. He knew that satan would fill all with sinful nature... God knew all this and intentionally created satan/lucifer. Since God is omnipotent he knew what he was creating to begin with. Now we are told that angels do not have free will. So how could lucifer do what he did unless God made him? If god is omnipotent and created angels to be without free will then how could one defy that? Basically what I am getting at is that by christian belief satan was created by god. So was evil. Therefore evil is gods will. Satan has nothing to do with it he is just doing what god wills. So evil is gods will as well as good and god is responsible for all evil as well as good. So why would he send people to hell knowingly influencing them to be evil and commit evil deeds? Why would god knowingly create something just to send it to burn for being what he created it to be?

In short - perhaps because we misunderstand the whole damned thing.

Perhaps, the point is that there is a reward for those who fulfill the will of god.

And perhaps, Lucifer (or whatever) himself is misunderstood, and is essentially just the prosecuting attorney of god, inciting men to fall from accomplishing this will.

Also, perhaps the failure of achieving this will is not eternal torment or punishment, but merely a second death which does not allow one to receive the gift of eternal life, which is the reward for fulfilling this will.

And finally - it's possible that we completely misjudge the goal-posts, and that even many of those who others think didn't meet the requirements will be surprised to find themselves awaking in an eternal reward someday...

I don't think christianity is anywhere near as cut-and-dried as most seem to...and I think most who claim the title mistake quite a lot.

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin


You are not doomed to hellfire you are forgiven. Only those who seek to hold you back offer their judgement and pretend to forecast your future.

I am glad you are spiritually progressing. Always progress.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen23
reply to post by Lionhearte

 

You said,

God is the Creator of all things. But it's His nature to be good, to be perfect. And just because you create something does not give you the attributes of what you create, you simply have knowledge of how to make it, and since God has the knowledge of everything, he is the creator of everything.

Which makes me ask,, is your God Everything,, or outside of that,, and just the Creator of 'everything'?

Maybe he is striving to be good,, but his wrathful nature of the Old Testament , jealous and smiting left and right,, seems a bit contrived when you objectively look at such a wrathful deity. Mind you,,, I understand the likes of wrathful deities such as the Goddess Kali,, whom is loving to her devotees but also a wrathful figure,,, much like your own god, correct?

I know the watch metaphor,,, not really apt IMHO only.
but understand where you are coming from as a believer in Jesus,,, trying to assimilate his wrathful Father figure of the Old Testament

Tough Love Deity,,, I get it.

My God is not limited to anything and is the Creator of all things.

As I said, the OT was made to show off how faulty man was. The reason God seemed like such a wrathful deity, is because his judgement is true. He's no different to this day. Hint, the OT and NT are part of one book. Put them together and you know the truth about God's nature. The OT showed the penalty and the wages of Sin, the NT shows how to inherit salvation.

reply to post by denver22


Originally posted by eleven44
satan was god's greatest gift to us....


Here are 24 EX satanists' who would disagree with that statement in a NY minute:






This was what I was refering to

reply to post by Lionhearte

Still I asked,, is he Everything or just the Creator of everything?

reply to post by lobotomizemecapin
My bad then but seriously though satan fell from grace i.e a fallen angel he was not created evil according to the bible that is

He has always been.


We are somewhat constrained by science and our current understanding of nature. I believe we have much more to learn before we can truly grasp this truth enough to elaborate on it.

reply to post by denver22


I understand that but I was stating that if god was omnipotent he knew of the fall of grace before even creating satan so therefore created him to do just that and eventually to lead mankind to sin. therefore satan is working the will of god in all his actions.

Originally posted by denver22
reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

 

My bad then but seriously though satan fell from grace i.e a fallen angel he was not created evil according to the bible that is

Correct...according to common theology, anyway.

But, riddle me this: when did Satan fall from grace? In the Garden? Why then did he attend the...'heavenly board meeting' in the Book of Job, basically welcomed with open arms? Why could he come to tempt the son of god/God himself (depending on your swing) face-to-face after 40 days in the wilderness...fairly congenially?

I think Revelation takes a lot of interpretation I'm still not quite up to snuff on...but I'm not quite sure Satan/Lucifer/whatever ever DID actually fall from grace.

Now...the Grigori/Watchers...THAT might be a different story altogether...

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin
reply to post by denver22

 

I understand that but I was stating that if god was omnipotent he knew of the fall of grace before even creating satan so therefore created him to do just that and eventually to lead mankind to sin. therefore satan is working the will of god in all his actions.

we led ourselfs to sin no one can make you sin if you do not wan't to it's up to you to give in to temptation is it not ?

If you could foresee the future and know that one of your friends would make bad choices would you go through his entire life telling him what to do? If you loved him then I believe the answer would be 'no'.

You would have to at some point let go and let him live his life. He would not believe you knew best anyways and would grow to hate you for controlling his life from beginning to end.

God loves us and he wants us to have free will. Does that mean some will make mistakes? Yes.

In the end I believe we are all given the same choice. Do we believe or do we not believe?

Salvation has nothing to do with our actions or mistakes. It is not our reward it is our gift if we choose to receive it.

Evil and sin takes the spotlight when it should be seen as our common denominator and not means to lift one self up or put others down.

Love should be our spotlight. We have our Fathers forgiveness if we would only believe in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. We have his forgiveness, believe in him and be bound by sin no longer.

reply to post by Praetorius


he had his part to play did he not like we have ours trials and tribulations for us all . like a prisoner called to court we are summoned i guess like he.

reply to post by denver22


Temptation is not sin and sin is very subjective. Many shades of grey. But no it is supposed to be satan who brought sin into this world. Satan whom tempts people into following a sinful life and committing sinful acts

reply to post by Member2183


An omnipotent god could see the future of his creation and change said creation to be what he wanted it to be. Satan was created intentionally if god is omnipotent and therefore serves gods will.

Temptation is a sin according to the Bible.

You see how much focus 'sin' is getting. When this does not bind us any longer.

We will sin, yes. Can we be forgiven? Yes. This world and our mistakes does not chain us any longer. We were all bought with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.

Some will not believe and be sent to hell, but God will not forsake his children life and happiness for the sake of those who will not come to him.

Does our Father desire all of us children to come home? Yes. He is not going to force us though. That is truly love. That is truly freedom.

Freedom that you cannot find any where else. True freedom to make whatever choices you desire.

Freedom that Lucifer has, but God will not forsake us our freedom not even for the sake of an angel. He does not desire cookie cutter robots, but real children filled with his love. Love obtained by their choice rather than force or mindlessness.

reply to post by Member2183


So seeing a ripe juicy apple and being tempted into eating it by the knowledge of how delicious it is and the hunger in your gut is a sin too by that standard? The temptation to fall in love with someone is a sin?

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin
reply to post by denver22

 

Temptation is not sin and sin is very subjective. Many shades of grey. But no it is supposed to be satan who brought sin into this world. Satan whom tempts people into following a sinful life and committing sinful acts

IT IS STILL DOWN TO YOU TO SIN . i did not say temptation is itself sin i said well look you just said it for me [satan tempts people] but it is UP TO THE PEOPLE IF THEY CHOOSE TO SIN BY BEING TEMPTED TO SIN

don't blame him blame yourself for giving into him then .DOES THAT MAKE SENSE.

SUMMARY BEE GOOOOD STAY STRONG

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin
reply to post by Member2183

 

So seeing a ripe juicy apple and being tempted into eating it by the knowledge of how delicious it is and the hunger in your gut is a sin too by that standard? The temptation to fall in love with someone is a sin?

DO not cut off the hand that feeds you he was the master here in case you haven't noticed according to the bible that is.. he said do not eat and that was his command so yes he sinned i suppose just like if i said do not stael from say my house and you do then why is that not a sin then after say putting you up its a damn right liberty id say.

Tempting others or trying to lead others into sin, Yes that is sinful.

Being tempted to help others across the street, eat apples, or clean your room? No, I do not believe that to be sinful.

Tempted to fall in love? Not sinful.

Lust? Sinful

Does this sin mean you are going to hell, that you are worst than anyone else, or that you do not deserve Gods love? No, of course you deserve his love. You are his creation as we all are.

He is our Father he watches us fall and make mistakes. Will he embrace us with his love if we turn to him? Yes.

Life is his love for us and forgiveness is his gift. So live, honor thy Father, believe in Jesus Christ his Son and our Lord and Saviour, enjoy eternal life.

Life is much more than this world. I would say this world is like high school. We are here to learn. It feels like we are never getting out sometimes, but actually it will be over soon and seem like a blink in our existence after it is over.

We will probably see how immature we acted in hindsight and how we may have over complicated things and made them worse or harder than it actually was.

Do not get hung up on failed test or bad grades just focus on progressing and learning. Grow and believe in Him.