Mystery Of F-22 Illnesses Grows

Originally posted by Chadwickus
Carbon monoxide from running the jets inside the hanger?

And that would account for the pilots flying it getting ill how exactly? Your claiming the Carbon monoxide would get sucked up in the air as well?

reply to post by zorgon


Yeah, commands do not like being put under public scrutiny.

I was having a problem with a section of my command, and ended up inadvertently putting the CO of an aircraft carrier on report with congress, otherwise known as a congressional inquiry. But my issue was immediately resolved as a result.

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by zorgon

 

Carbon monoxide from running the jets inside the hanger?

Part of the problem may be the procedures used at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, where most of the known incidents have occurred. Because of the harsh climate, pilots often start their jet engines inside a hangar before taking off. Investigators suspect that exhaust gases are getting trapped in the building and subsequently sucked back into the engines, where they enter the bleed air intakes that supply the OBOGS, sources said.

www.airforcetimes.com...

Seems they are experiencing some weird problems in the US Air-Force recently that has caused study and concern from the AFRL. They had to make a modern study on effects of the Ancient U2.

Makes one wonder huh ?

REPORT OF EVALUATION OF DECOMPRESSION SICKNESS, BEALE AFB 10-14 AUG 2009

www.dtic.mil...

How about starting up the aircraft outside the hangar and purging the oxygen concentrator reservior after each flight? As far as this "nano" crap goes, why isn't everybody who comes in contact with the aircraft getting sick? To me 5 people in several months isn't anything to worry about. If you had 50 or 100 then I would be concerned. I'd also like to know if the F-22 has any special additives to it's fuel or if it is burning that new "green" fuel?

reply to post by JIMC5499


Why are people getting sick who actually work on the aircraft ?

reply to post by zorgon


Actually, the US did this to Germany in 1956. The US built a very modified Starfighter for the German Airforce. I believe the US sold 160 planes, 156 of them crashed and if I remember right almost all of the pilots were killed due to faulty ejection seat mechanisms. The Starfighter became known as the Widowmaker and the last 4 planes were grounded, permanently. There's some US techno-history ;-)

There is actually a rare album called "Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters" that features Eric Wolfson, Hawkwind, Alan Parsons and Arthur Brown. The album is the rather brief and general story of the German Airforce purchase of the US made Starfighters. I wouldn't know this if we didn't buy the album in around 1977. The jacket is quite impressive actually, embossed and all that.

Cheers - Dave

Well, it's an instrument of death. A really severe one at that.

I wouldn't be surprised if the operators of such an instrument would get symptoms of what is essentially, "lifelessness", or anyone working on it for that matter.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if more stories like this pop up about other tools/objects etc. In fact, I think people in general are going to start being more sensitive to these things in the future. To the point where we'll be living in a fantasy novel where the "dread" or "evil force" people feel is an actual measured phenomena.

reply to post by Somamech


Start your car in a garage with the door closed and see what happens. It is the same thing. They are starting the aircraft in a hangar that may have ventilation issues. Everytime you start an aircraft you have people around it. The crew chief, fireguard and maintaince troubleshooters. From what I read these are the people getting sick.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
reply to post by Somamech

 

Start your car in a garage with the door closed and see what happens. It is the same thing. They are starting the aircraft in a hangar that may have ventilation issues. Everytime you start an aircraft you have people around it. The crew chief, fireguard and maintaince troubleshooters. From what I read these are the people getting sick.

So are you saying that these professionals in the field didn't think of that to begin with?

We also have a report from the AFRL stating that an ancient aircraft (U2) is also experiencing Hooman problems. ?

reply to post by zorgon


My claiming?

I'm not claiming anything.

It's the air force investigators who are saying it.

F/A 18's had a similar issue with their air intake systems too.

Big write up about that here:

www.public.navy.mil...

Originally posted by Chadwickus
reply to post by zorgon

 

My claiming?

I'm not claiming anything.

It's the air force investigators who are saying it.

F/A 18's had a similar issue with their air intake systems too.

Big write up about that here:

www.public.navy.mil...

That document does not explain why ground crew are getting sick

reply to post by Somamech


They're in the hanger whilst the jet is running...

The F22 crew that is...doesn't seem to be any F/A18 ground crew hypoxia cases.

This is extremely strange. I would have thought the same thing, the jet being such a high-flier, but with ground crews getting sick the possibilities shift dramatically. It wouldn't be anything radiation induced, as I don't think radiation exposure would cause hypoxia, but I'm not sure. Plus, it would be easily detectable if they wanted to test for it.

My best guess is that there is some poison like chemical on one of the larger components in the cockpit, that is absorbed through the skin, or is odorless and wafts through the air. That sounds pretty far-fetched, but it is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. I mean what else could cause this to happen to anyone sitting in the cockpit? Maintenance doesn't even close the canopy to my knowledge, so there would be air circulation, making me think that an airborne substance or gas is not the culprit.

But if they do close the lid, and there was not a ventilation system, which I don't think there is, a gas release of some kind could definitely cause hypoxia. Even actual gas, as in jet fuel. But surely the odor would be detectable, although I don't know what jet fuel smells like.

reply to post by zorgon

Is it because there is a problem with the exhaust gases after the aircraft has been on burner? i.e are they not burnt as efficiently as they should be,causing an envelope of carbon monoxide to linger round the nozzles and therefore bleed its way back into the aircrafts air conditioning system,would maybe explain why the ground crews are experiencing similar symptoms to the pilots where the carbon monoxide envelope hasn't disipated enough on landing

Originally posted by Somamech

Originally posted by JIMC5499
reply to post by Somamech

 

Start your car in a garage with the door closed and see what happens. It is the same thing. They are starting the aircraft in a hangar that may have ventilation issues. Everytime you start an aircraft you have people around it. The crew chief, fireguard and maintaince troubleshooters. From what I read these are the people getting sick.

So are you saying that these professionals in the field didn't think of that to begin with?

I've been a mechanic for a couple of civilian airlines, and staff do all sorts of things to avoid inclement weather, make processes go faster, avoid boring work, etc.

It's human nature to cut corners, and in aviation starting inside hangers has been tolerated or forbidden at different times and places by different organisations. Same as some other dodgy activities like hot refueling (refueling with engines running), refueling inside hangars, use of chocks when ground running....there are a multitude of things that people can screw up on a regular basis.

And when such behaviour becomes the "norm" in an organisation then no-one questions it - and an organisation can be anything from a single person, their team, their shift or flight, a squadron or a single station up to an entire airline or airforce.

News stories around the world about similar things happening are common in all sorts of places - from phone-tapping in British papers and MP's rorting expenses over there to police forces routinely carrying out dodgy activities. And you can be sure there are many cases where you aren't hearing about it.

"Alaska, where most of the known incidents have occurred. "
my god is it really that much of a mystery???????????

here's a big CLUE maybe they can change uniforms with the airline stewardess's,,,,,,,
gheeeshhhh,, common,,
its the Air Force ,,and they haven't got a clue,,,,right,,,
It's the U.S.A.F,,,geezzzz,they dont have the budget i guess.
Me.

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
reply to post by zorgon

 

Actually, the US did this to Germany in 1956. The US built a very modified Starfighter for the German Airforce. I believe the US sold 160 planes, 156 of them crashed and if I remember right almost all of the pilots were killed due to faulty ejection seat mechanisms. The Starfighter became known as the Widowmaker and the last 4 planes were grounded, permanently. There's some US techno-history ;-)

there weer a lot of reasons why the Starfighter had a really bad safety record in the LW.

they had 916 of the a/c, and 292 crashed, killing 115 pilots.

the Ejection seats weer not very good, so they replaced them.

But much of the problem came down to the LW being rebuilt with an extremely high performance a/c in the 1950's, with insufficient training for both air and ground crew, insufficient experience - or ex WW2 pilots who had not maintained experience, and utterly different conditions in Europe vs the USA - more flights, more maneuvering, more terrain, more low level "terrain following" flying, operating in harsher weather, etc.

other non-american operators of the F-104 did not have the same problems that Germany did -

During the 1960s, the "Starfighter crisis" developed into a political issue, as many Lockheed F-104 Starfighters crashed after being modified to serve for Luftwaffe purposes – specifically for terrain, weather, and ground mechanic support issues. In Luftwaffe service, 292 of 916 Starfighters crashed, claiming the lives of 115 pilots and leading to cries that the Starfighter was fundamentally unsafe from the West German public, which referred to it as the Witwenmacher (widow-maker), fliegender Sarg (flying coffin), Fallfighter (falling fighter) and Erdnagel (tent peg, literally "ground nail").

Steinhoff and his deputy Günther Rall noted that the non-German F-104s proved much safer – Spain, for example, lost none in the same period. The Americans blamed the high loss rate of the Luftwaffe F-104s on the extreme low-level and aggressive flying of German pilots rather than any faults in the aircraft.[6] Steinhoff and Rall immediately went to America to learn to fly the Starfighter under Lockheed instruction and noted some specifics in the training (a lack of mountain and foggy-weather training), combined with handling capabilities (sharp start high G turns) of the aircraft that could cause accidents.

Steinhoff and Rall changed the training regimen for the F-104 pilots, and the accident rates quickly fell to those comparable or better than other air forces. They also brought about the high level of training and professionalism seen today throughout the Luftwaffe, and the start of a strategic direction for Luftwaffe pilots to engage in tactical and combat training outside of Germany. However, the F-104 never lived down its reputation as a widow-maker and was replaced much earlier by the Luftwaffe than other national air forces.

- en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Skewed


So, after you were trained, I assume you learned what would kill you and why right? What where things that could kill you before you hit the ground, and why? Electrocution? Secret security features made to kill people snooping around?

maybe it's the dilithium crystals ?

what's odd is the 22 has been in service awhile now

why now ?

maybe the crews are being poisoned ?