Who killed the prophet Muhammad? A 1400 year old murder mystery.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by lobotomizemecapin

 

.The standing question to ask is"How did Muhammad die",and go from there.Just tell us the history as it is known please.

There is no ijma among the various schools. But according to the school of the Ahl al Bayt (as), who are the Shi'a, the Holy Prophet (saw) did not die from the Jewess.

These ahadith which say such things are daif (weak) in the Shi'a books because not only is there an unknown in this chain of narrators but also one who was called accursed.

Also these ahadith go against the laws of Islam, because it is not allowed for us to eat from the meat of the people of the Book, the Jews and Christians. We may eat from their grains but not from their meat. So the Holy Prophet (saw) is not going to commit a sin by eating such meat, because the Holy Prophet (saw) is without sin or error.

Also, this supposedly happened at the battle of Khaybar, which was years before the death of the Prophet (saw) therefore these ahadith go against logic, it does not take 4 years to die from poison.

Therefore, such traditions must be logically ruled out, on the basis of chain of narrators, on basis of Islamic law, and on basis of logic. We do not accept such traditions.



Other traditions speak of 'certain personages' acting strangely around the days before the death of the Holy Prophet (saw) and these ahadith are reported not only in our books of ahadith but also sunni books of ahadith. Some from the Shi'a accept these traditions, as they appear in accord with chains of narrators, with logic, and with Islamic law.

But of course, this does not refer to every Shi'a and there is no ijma (consensus) on this issue. We can however say for fact, that the ahadith speak on the fact that the Ahl al Bayt (as) say that "not one of Us (saw) die but that They (saw) are a martyr." Therefore there is ijma on the fact that the Holy Prophet (saw) died as a martyr.

But that is all that can be said with certainty on the issue.

reply to post by MeesterB


Seriously though we should not discuss anything bad about him because people worship him as a prophet. A prophet like muhammad who went around committing the evils he did was bound to be assassinated by the jewish woman whom "just wanted to see if he was the real deal".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Who cares, I mean, really?

I wonder if I might make an observation. First, thanks for the couple of Muslims who have contributed knowledge on this. It's helpful to hear the deeper perspectives and information for a religion most of us don't see anything positive presented about.

Now, having said that. I can't help but shake my head at times for how deeply personal it seems to be taken when others don't follow or respect the tenants of a specific Faith? Islam has what many view as odd and antiquated beliefs. Not all of them and I don't mean to stereotype. The best comparison would be the specifics of Deuteronomy in the Bible. That section talking about wearing blended fibers and other very odd guidelines to a religion....but quite logical commercial laws for the period it was written.

I've seen those made fun of more than once and usually in context to a discussion starting from other sections of that area of scripture. I've never seen a Christian, even a devout one, get worked up to the point of anger when someone else points out that much of that is silly in modern terms to others. However, it's almost predictable to the point of a reliable method to provoke a Muslim by simply saying similar things about sections of their teachings.

Why would anyone particularly care or worry so much about what outsiders, ignorant of any specifics they're ridiculing, think?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


www.abovetopsecret.com...

One could ask you people why you care to make threads for only the insult of our beliefs? Do we do it to you?

But I see another reason, one that makes a great deal more sense in the making of these threads... see above link for that reason. Make threads, make muslims out to be the bad evil people, make people believe it, then free reign (justified in your eyes) for the murder of us all...

good plan

reply to post by MeesterB

Not only did Allah kill him, but killed him in a way that showed he is a false prophet. At the hands of a female jew no less.

Let me take your line of thinking further....

Christians believe that God let Jesus be tortured and crucified half naked at the hands of pagan Romans.... does that mean Jesus was a false prophet?

What about John the Baptist? He was beheaded as a "gift" for a female dancer. Was John a false prophet?

Peter the apostle was crucified upside down. Was Peter a false apostle?

Hmmm?

Peters upside down crucifixion is a curious case.

The upside down cross is very often associated with Satanism.... for example- many christians will point to the popes upside down cross seat and accuse the RCC of being satanic.


So the fact that Peter was crucified upside down should also mean that Peter was anti-christian or Satanic. But, instead Peter is a martyr....while the RCC is suspected of being satanic for having an upside down cross.... (probably as a tribute to Peter)

So is this hypocrisy.... an anti-catholic bias.... or a logical flaw on the part of christians?
I mean if a prophets death means he is "false"... what then of an apostle who is killed in the same way as Jesus, but upside down.... a manner remniscent of satanic symbolism?



(edit: I typed "satanic upside down cross" on google....and the first result is a link to Cross of St. Peter on wiki. )

I thought he ascended to heaven; didnt know he was killed, isnt that why the Muslims revere the Dome of the Rock, where he ascended?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Yes yes yes all of them were. But they did not kill muhammad

reply to post by Jameela

One could ask you people why you care to make threads for only the insult of our beliefs? Do we do it to you?

Yes Islam does this to all outside Islam.

People make simple threads to challenge Islam on a mere Internet forum, and this is an offense to you?

The Qur'an is considered a Holy Book from Allah subhanahu wa'tala, and challenges the Christians by saying Yeshua (Jesus/Isa) alayhi salaam did not die on the cross and is not the Son of God. This might be truth to you, but it is offensive to Christians.

The Qur'an challenges the faiths of Jews, Christians, People of the Book, Atheists, Apostates, Idol Worshippers, and non-believers.

Is it ok to offend the faith of others in your Holy Book, but it is not acceptable to offend your religion on the measly Internet?

reply to post by Sahabi

The Qur'an is considered a Holy Book from Allah subhanahu wa'tala, and challenges the Christians by saying he did not die on the cross and is not the Son of God. The Qur'an challenges the faiths of Jews, Christians, People of the Book, Atheists, Apostates, Idol Worshippers, and non-believers.

The threads premise is very specific to Mohammads death. It is suggesting that "Since Mohammad was killed, he was a false prophet". So, what of Jesus, John, Peter and so on. They too were all killed i n horrible ways... does it mean they were false prophets as well?

Secondly, I cant even make sense of what the video in the OP is trying to acheive.
In the video, it says that according to the Koran...

"if Muhammad were a false prophet, Allah would sever his aorta. Interestingly, when Muhammad died, he said he could feel his sorta being severed

.


The important thinh to ask is.... does it mean that the christian who made the video is implying that that Allah is indeed God? Or how did the warning about the severed aorta come to pass?

14:52, he has been going on and on about the verse about the aorta.... and then says the death of Mohammad was "divine judgement".... so looks to me like he believes in Allah.

Originally posted by Jameela
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

One could ask you people why you care to make threads for only the insult of our beliefs? Do we do it to you?

But I see another reason, one that makes a great deal more sense in the making of these threads... see above link for that reason. Make threads, make muslims out to be the bad evil people, make people believe it, then free reign (justified in your eyes) for the murder of us all...

good plan

Well, that is a fair point to ask. I'd ask the same about why there was a rash of real sharp edged posts about Christianity for awhile here too. It was a passing 'fad' or something because it faded back to the occasional new thread where it was really coming non-stop there for a bit.

It takes all kinds though and the people saying 95% of this with the ugly edge to it do not mean it personally and would probably fall over themselves apologizing and rationalizing themselves half to death if you met by chance in a supermarket or something.

That remaining 5% who would actually carry the level of hostility shown on an internet forum into the real world, as unprovoked as it's done here, are those I don't believe anyone here supports. They are the Gifford Shooter or the JT Ready types. Rare, but they exist. The rest? It's hot air and boredom....?

reply to post by Jameela

Also, this supposedly happened at the battle of Khaybar, which was years before the death of the Prophet (saw) therefore these ahadith go against logic, it does not take 4 years to die from poison.

Therefore, such traditions must be logically ruled out, on the basis of chain of narrators, on basis of Islamic law, and on basis of logic. We do not accept such traditions.

Good point.

What christians are doing is take a verse in the Koran and compare it to a shaky hadith.... to conclude that Mohammad was a false prophet.

I wonder if they would apply this kind of logic to their own bible....

Jesus, while dying painfully on the cross asked God "why have you forsaken me?".
I mean despite being "divine"...he did not seem to know why he was forsaken. So going by Jesus' words in the bible, do Christians believe Jesus was a false prophet....who died a painful death?

The hypocrisy is astonishing.

The tradition states that Muhammad died many years later from the effects of being poisoned (someone earlier brought up the point that muslims are not allowed to eat meat from jews and christians, and while the eating of meat from christians is debated among muslims, it is mostly accepted that eating meat prepared by jews, i.e. kosher, is allowed) during the battle of Khyber.

Some agree with this tradition, some disagree, some say it was an explanation created so that Muhammad would be able to die as a martyr. The basic point is, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL. To paraphrase a quote from Abu Bakr (apologies to the shi'ite forum members) "Whoever among you worshipped Muhammad, let them know that Muhammad is dead. But whoever worships God, let them know, God is alive and ever living".

People come up with the oddest things in an attempt to bash muslims and islam...

Originally posted by Jameela

An entire thread to insult the Holy Prophet (saw) of another religion! Wow, every single poster in this this thread must be so proud right now! Do you get a prize for being the most insulting toward those others love?

A problem with Islam is that its followers tend to get angry when anyone says anything they don't like about their prophet. Very angry.


But why should that surprise anyone?

Muhammad authorised the murder of a number of poets (male & female) who had mocked him. One poet was a mother sleeping with her young children. The Muslim assassin had to move the child aside before thrusting his dagger into her chest. Another victim was a male poet who was, according to Muslim sources, over 100 years old. Mohammed then absolved the Islamic murderers of any wrong doing.

Life of God's Messenger

Ibn Ishaq was a devout Muslim historian and was the author of the first biography about Muhammad - Sirat Rasul Allah - "Life of God's Messenger" in 768 AD.

His biography of Muhammad's life is consistant with the Koran and Hadith and show Muhammad as an inolerant man of violence.

Originally posted by Jameela
Who will win the most stars for having the least amount of respect for someone that others hold dear?

Why should respect be shown to a evil man? All because you think he should be respected does not mean others should think the same!

Originally posted by lobotomizemecapin

He is not holy in any way. Do a little research on him and you will know he was an evil evil person. Right to his very core.

Indeed he was. Muhammad, blessed be his name, is revealed to be a man of extreme violence by Islam's own holy books.

Muhammad prescribed:-

• Death for leaving Islam Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Vol 24, Verse 24

• Jihad Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 25

• Fighting others until they admit their is only one god, Allah Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 24

• Burning people for not praying Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Vol 11, Verse 626

• Forcing Non Muslims to submit and pay jizyah tax Koran Book 9 Verse 29

If Muhammad stated that the penalty for leaving Islam was death, told followers that Jihad was second only to believing in Allah and burnt people to death for not praying, in what sense was Muhammad a man of peace?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Jameela

 

Also, this supposedly happened at the battle of Khaybar, which was years before the death of the Prophet (saw) therefore these ahadith go against logic, it does not take 4 years to die from poison.

Therefore, such traditions must be logically ruled out, on the basis of chain of narrators, on basis of Islamic law, and on basis of logic. We do not accept such traditions.

Good point.

What christians are doing is take a verse in the Koran and compare it to a shaky hadith.... to conclude that Mohammad was a false prophet.

I wonder if they would apply this kind of logic to their own bible....

Jesus, while dying painfully on the cross asked God "why have you forsaken me?".
I mean despite being "divine"...he did not seem to know why he was forsaken. So going by Jesus' words in the bible, do Christians believe Jesus was a false prophet....who died a painful death?

The hypocrisy is astonishing.

Was that the point of this little game? I did not know that poison cuts/severs aortas.

Anyway, without knowledge of the ahadith sciences they really should steer clear of ahadith. Not even sunni ahadith are considered sahih in the chains of narrators and content. I have been in debates with sunni and they examine the sanaad of all the ahadith from their books. Only wahabi do not do this.

Makes for a long debate when you have to examine all the sciences for every single hadith, examining isnad and matn of every single one you quote. Why is why in general terms the lists of ahadith to be used in a debate are prepared and exchanged between the parties in advance of any scholarly debate.

Anyway, if they take the time to learn ilm al hadith and arabic and take some courses in logic and Islamic history concerning the revelation of various ayah and surah then maybe with such dedication into our religion they will decide for themselves whether or not the religion is true. Too bad they do not have such dedication to truth, they seem only to dedicate themselves to lies.

Basically what these people in this thread are are "Christian and/or atheist Wahabis"...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Jesus, while dying painfully on the cross asked God "why have you forsaken me?". I mean despite being "divine"...he did not seem to know why he was forsaken. So going by Jesus' words in the bible, do Christians believe Jesus was a false prophet....who died a painful death? The hypocrisy is astonishing.

Good point. I'm not religious. Just keeping score. 10 points for you

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

does it mean that the christian who made the video is implying that that Allah is indeed God?
....so looks to me like he believes in Allah.

If Muslims say, "Allah is the Arab word for the monotheistic God of Abraham and Creator of All," then yeah, Christians and Jews believe in Abraham's God.

So, what of Jesus, John, Peter and so on. They too were all killed i n horrible ways

Christians do believe Jesus died on the cross.

However, the guy in the OP video was offering an argument in accordance to Islamic belief. Muslims say Jesus never died, but was instead ascended to Heaven.

So the guy in the video used Islamic dogma to argue the point; "Allah saved Jesus from a lynch mob of Jews by allowing his ascent to Heaven, but yet Allah allows a Jewish woman to poison Muhammad?"



I've read those Sahih Hadith about the pain in Muhammad's aorta from the poison, but I've never considered these hadith in regards to the Qur'an saying if Muhammad was a forger that his aorta would be severed.

I can't say this is the opinion I stand behind, but it sure is one heck of an ironic coincidence....