Charles Manson - "nutjob" or something more?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Agreed. Charles Manson is exactly where he wants to be though.

The man is shamanic. I have heard that in some shamanic rituals, that the shaman would go off to the cave, indulge in psychodelics, and , then return to the tribe with thier newly gleaned wisdom, often expressed in song and dance. Manson gets lost in the dance and music, sort of like Jim Morrison.

Had he been born into a more primitive culture; he may have even been reverred.

He spouts off some uncomfortable truths, that most do not want to accept. He illustrates that most people do not think for themselves; and, go along with the herd. He calls it play acting like on TV.
Everyone goe along with the status quo, regardless of the consequences. He is right, that the hypocrite, who protests nuclear energy, actually uses it.

Manson questions our very existance as a civilized culture. He reminds us that the comforts we take for granted, come at a cost; either by the exploitation of third world countries or even the sustainability of our species.

He has sort of an animal consciuosness. He convinced the girls to have sex without reservation as animals do. He puts no value in material things.

He says he is not a leader or a follower; just a reflection of what we made him. In a way, that's true, because in another time, or, in a different society, he would represent something else.

The man seems to have traded his conscience for consciousness, which makes him the animal, he prefers to be. Ironicly, his story has been exploited as if he were in a zoo.

I just spent the last 30 minutes or so listening to Manson speak on different occasions, and I will give my interpretation. I read a LOT of philosophy, from ancient to modern, and I have read things from people who are geniuses, and from people who think they are more intelligent than they actually are. This is the sense I get with this man. He doesn't even have a philosophy that guides him, and that is fairly obvious. He just says "whatever" sounds good to him at the time it seems like, some of it changing with the wind.

I am convinced that no one should condemn sociopaths, or anyone with an obvious mental issue, as being the scum of the earth, although they must be punished for their actions. I say this because I believe that free will is largely determined by a person's brain chemistry. Most people learn that killing someone else is immoral, and that is why they don't kill people. Not because they fear punishment. Is this not what we would consider normal?

So if someone like Manson comes along, who doesn't think and feel like "normal" people, is it truly his fault? From what we know now, it must be. But, I hope that in the future we can understand exactly what imbalances in the brain cause people to deviate from "normal" functioning. Everyone likes to think that they have unlimited free will it seems like, when how you think and act have largely to do with your genetics, brain structure and chemistry, neural connections, upbringing, what one learns at the most impressionable time in their lives, etc...THAT is why free will doesn't fully exist in my opinion.

So anyway, I don't think Manson is a genius, nor do I think he has anything enlightening to say. I may be wrong, but it seems like you are looking up to this man, or at the very least respecting his philosophy, which truly is non-existent, and this is not a good thing. You should broaden your intellectual horizons by reading and studying philosophy...Because if you are impressed by what he said in those videos above, your mind will explode once you start reading thoughts and arguments presented by actual geniuses.

hmmm...

He's an interesting character, that's for sure. In interviews, he seems to thrive on the unexpected. People fear the unknown and unexpected.

I don't think he's guilty of first degree murder. Conspiracy to commit? maybe. But saying he "manipulated" the weak-willed? Blah. They carry just as much, I'd even say more, personal responsibility. No one can force another to believe something their mind was not previously open to believe.

That said, I don't think he's exceptionally intelligent. "Genius" ...? Is not a genius one who simply devotes time to studying and understanding a subject or subjects? That's my take, anyhow. Intelligence and genius isn't something you're born with; it's something you devote time to, and he sure has had plenty of free time...

Originally posted by Outofcontrol

I dont think so Phage.

Listen to him... hes not a nutjob, if you actually bother to listen to him you'll notice that theres nothing "off". Hes not crazy... every gesture, every look, every word is perfectly timed.

Sounds like a nutjob. You realise psychopaths are deceptive right?

Don't judge him by his words or demeanor, judge him by his actions. If killing people isn't crazy then I don't know what is

anybody could use your argument to say anything about any crazy people. most people who've met bin laden thought he was a nice guy with valid criticisms of us foreign policy. does that detract from his actions?

as i recall manson didn't kill anyone! but yet hes locked up
yet some of the other people that did kill,have been released!

"can't you see i'm out there! can't you see i'm out! can't you see i'm free!!!"

Originally posted by reficul
as i recall manson didn't kill anyone! but yet hes locked up

yet some of the other people that did kill,have been released!

"can't you see i'm out there! can't you see i'm out! can't you see i'm free!!!"

well we went after Bin Laden even though he didn't commit the crimes himself. He convinced others to do it for him.

IMO...Manson was/is a pawn in the game and has been deemed to play a part
in this circus run by "Oz".

Without being sympathetic, He is simply a product of the environment/the system he was born into under unfortunate or even unfair circumstances. Living a life always at a disadvantage, he chose to kill since there is apparently nothing wrong with it if the the governments armies and police can do it. Institutionalised into decrepid institutions since a very young age. He is a very hurt and scarred animal. Placed in a cage and poked and prodded in the most torturous manners with no option for escape besides death almost all his life. Society must recognize it is partly to blame for creating this creature and making it what it is today. But we all know they wont do that. Im not saying free him.. but obviously he's not going to the chair or theyd have done it a long time ago. If he is released.. he'll either go on an even more devious killing spree, or having a new appreciation for freedom would try to get off the grid of involvement with human society. But he is right. He never received a trial to this day that didnt have the verdict already set. there was always a bias and this is his greatest defense. Once again the justice system has failed. not for incarcerating a criminal.. but this time for overlooking due process in a most incompetent manner which could cause him to go free regardless of the crimes he committed in his life. what he says is again true.. He may have done bad things.. but alot of those things he wasnt charged for and where he was he was freed. yet others to which he claims no involvement seem to stick. I believe he has the secret. If u deny responsibility then u get convicted. If you go willingly ready to accept punishment you are freed by the court system.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Outofcontrol

 

I don't consider psychopaths "crazy".
I consider them subhuman slime.

And they could be your boss don't forget.

The common misconception with psychopaths is that they're all violent extreme kind of criminals. The majority of them are living and working around us in jobs psychologically destroying the people that they work with.

Jonica Newby, reporter: This is where I work. It's the ABC building in Sydney. Now the figures are that 0.5% of women are psychopaths, and 2% are men. So that means there are up to 25 corporate psychopaths somewhere up there.

Link

Most psychopaths have high IQs. There really is nothing special about him.

Originally posted by BlesUTP
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Agreed. Charles Manson is exactly where he wants to be though.

has anyone commenting or the OP read Helter Skelter? or the books co-written by Charles "Tex" Watson? read those and you'll basically get the best idea of who he is/was. a manipulative traumatized child who used music at a time when it was something super glamorous to draw in as many women and men as he could to do whatever he wanted, from pushing misogyny amongst "the family" as well as other acid induced ideas, to finally using Helter Skelter as his reason to get back at someone who he claimed "promised him a record deal." he was known for administering all kinds of hallucinogens to the Family, but always taken 1/4 of what he administered so he could stay in control. Intellect aside, the man was just an opportunist.

and although it was never proven that he physically killed someone, without his mandate, none of those people would've committed any of those crimes, especially as gruesome as they were (another one of his requests). yes, they have the free will & common sense to choose what to do, but they were so brainwashed by this person, there was almost a sense of fear in saying no to Charlie.

its a good read !

reply to post by Hessdalen


If my recall is correct, Manson did not actually kill anyone himself. Personally, I don't believe his satisfaction came from the actual kill, but that he could manipulate others to do it for him.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Coniuratus

 

I see your point.

What I object to is the implication that his "intelligence" is anything extraordinary. It isn't, there are many, many others who are easily as "intelligent" as Manson. What is extraordinary about him (and his ilk) is his ability to manipulate and his willingness to use it for his own deviant purposes. There is nothing useful here. There is nothing beneficial here.

edit on 5/9/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Nothing useful or beneficial. Apart from manipulation for deviant purposes is how every royal family and super power in the world came to be.

When Bill Clinton became US president, I ran a 'Free Charles Manson' campaign in the magazine I edited. Around 250 people signed the petition..never did get a reply.

Mansons story is a tragedy that starts before he was born, he really is a creation of the system. In a way he is simply a mirror showing ourselves, which is one of the main reasons that we have to lock him away. We are scared of monsters under the bed and in the closet...yet there is nothing to fear for WE are the monsters.

Have you seen any of Mansons art ? Truly excellent, and it gets taken from him. He isn't allowed to keep any of it. Mass murderers, serial killers, psychotics are always encouraged to express their creative sides, some are even allowed pets if possible to channel their energies and interests. Yet still we torture Manson. Is it because when you listen to him there is a lot of naked truth to be heard, are we still so scared of him that we try to damage him more hoping that he will stop showing us ourselves ?

Our society works better if everyone is unquestioning, and herd like. The moment anything comes round that threatens to wake up the masses, then it needs to be banned, beaten killed destroyed.

If Mansons words to the family set them on the road to kill, that was already inside of them. in some sense they used Manson as the excuse they needed to act as THEY wanted. Likewise can the same be said of the words of Jesus and the billions that have died and suffered since he spoke. Is the fault to be laid at him and his message of Love, or in reality does the blame sit with those who used a new world view and twisted it to suit their own agenda.

If you notice mankind forms cults at every point, whether Manson, Jim Jones, Koresh all the way to religion politics, business , and science. We have a need to belong and to herd together...we all need a Family...and we all hate those who do not think or act the same as us.

We created Manson in our image, his words echo deep into our subconscious stirring deep latent feelings listen closely to that voice and you will become aware that it is your own.

FREE CHARLES MANSON

The truth is Manson was a bitter, failed musician that decided to take it out on the rich of Hollywood.

Originally posted by current93
he really is a creation of the system.

Have you seen any of Mansons art ? Truly excellent, and it gets taken from him.


If Mansons words to the family set them on the road to kill, that was already inside of them. in some sense they used Manson as the excuse they needed to act as THEY wanted.

in some sense, we are ALL a creation of the system, that is no excuse for manipulating others, and please be clear, he not only conditioned them to be open to murder, but gave them complete new identities, YES these people thought he was God, doesn't speak much for their level of self independence but we're all different.


his art deserves no merit, John Wayne Gacy as well as many others had very nice art, but if he had functioned differently, maybe his life and his work would have had a different result.

I do agree, as well as the sentencing stage of the trial, all these people had murder in them, he only pushed them to the limit, which further proves his intent. he sought after weak minded women, and lured in weak minded men and pushed his agenda through them because he was a sore loser, who never did much but expected EVERYTHING, AND blamed it on everything else.

SIT DOWN with the pity story, i wish there was a life charge for what he did, but since there isn't, murder's good too!

reply to post by visinequeen


Yes the system does help create us, but does the system not also manipulate us too ? From which brand of washing powder to ethic cleansing, its all presented to us in a format that helps us belong to and perpetuate the system.

We are in an endless search for our gods, to paraphrase Monty Python, He is the messiah, I should know I've followed a few in my time. Religion is the ultimate manipulator of mankind so far, and how many millions have been murdered in its name, yet few ever jailed or even an attempt made to bring them to justice.

Why is it that we seem to need to be near the 'edge' before our creativity comes out. How many artists and song writers have lost the muse once they become comfy ? Do we need to be able to see the cracks in reality before we can really express ourselves meaningfully ?

Manson has many faults, even he has never denied this, what I do find fascinating is the way that he turns what we do to him into an attack on ourselves. This may be an indication of his intelligence, or a simple form of reverse repetition used by AI engines that can easily fool people into thinking they are talking to a real person. Either way it does show that in general our logic and arguments tend to be flawed and easily beaten as they have no substance.

I don't really have a pity story, and in the end the Manson story is just another tragedy in history, a tragedy for all concerned I don't mean just for him. Like all stories though, most of it isn't black or white, and allegorical tales can be taken from many points. I do think that society is scared of Manson, not just because of the crimes or his part in them. Yet our reaction to him has in a way set him up again as a 'god', a poster boy for future cult leaders, who then become beacons and attractors for the lost, weak, disaffected and easy manipulated.

If you do not remember the past you are condemned to repeat it, is a most true saying.

Thanks for replying though.

There have been studies done of these types of criminals, to find out how/if their brains are different. Indeed, they are. Here is one such study: archpsyc.ama-assn.org... earchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

Another doctor I know of who is well known for his work with brain injury and abnormality, diagnosis and treatment, is Dr. Amen, of the Amen Clinics in Newport Beach, CA. He has worked with the CDC (California Department of Corrections), examining the brains of some of the worst criminals in the prison system, or on death row even. He said that he found quite a bit of abnormality or brain injury in those subjects, as opposed to neurotypical subjects. See the link below...

www.amenclinics.com...

I also remember seeing an interview with Jeffrey Dahmer, the well known homosexual serial killer, who died in prison of an attack from another inmate. His notorious, brutal crimes involved murdering random men he had picked up to have sex with, and eating them.

In the interview, they were speaking with him, and his parents, regarding his upbringing. Dahmer claimed to have found faith in God and conversion while incarcerated. A true testament to how far reaching God's grace can be, even to the worst of them. Dahmer spoke of how his mind had altered in his view of human life, and right and wrong. He had come to understand the importance of human life, and right and wrong, through finding his creator, so he claimed. He said that he didn't have any care for human life before that, and had never been taught otherwise. I know, not an excuse at all for what he did, but I did find it interesting. Possibly, he was delivered from an evil that plagued his mind, never know. I cannot help but think, though, back to the stories of missionaries who went to a distant tribe, untouched by civilization, who lived by killing their enemies, eating their hearts to gain their enemies "power", or practiced cannibalism, etc. The first time they went, the tribe murdered them, thought they were enemies or evil, even though the missionaries had been dropping gifts to them to open contact long before they landed. The primitive tribe did not understand the meaning of life as others saw it, or the sanctity of another being, or that they have a soul, a right to live, etc. That just was not in their mindset or custom. They lived a kill and conquer lifestyle, until they learned differently. This is so similar to the mindset that Dahmer had, in a twisted way. He reaped what he had sown, but I find the way his mind worked interesting, anway.