The Rise Of Socialism And How Capitalism Ran Out Of Other Peoples Money.

reply to post by Germanicus


I and my whole family have been communists since I can remember, but now that I am finishing college I read a lot and realized that communism does not last long. Soviet Union collapsed and China is not very communist anymore, they are more capitalists. Also that as long as there is money and government there will be corruption which will destroy the principles of the system.

Yes I am a socialist. A resource based economy is fully a socialist system, but without money or government. It is completely free and as there is no money or any system for barter there cannot be corruption. What do you think?

reply to post by asen_y2k


I think you are right but I think money helps like if Im swapping a pig for five chickens I might think the pig is worth five and a half chickens but the guy doesnt want to give me half a chicken so he makes up the difference with money. I think money is good placing value on things. But I get what you are saying. And whats half a chicken between friends?

And I love Barter Town from the third Mad Max movie. Seems like a fair place in alot of ways.

Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by asen_y2k

 

I think you are right but I think money helps like if Im swapping a pig for five chickens I might think the pig is worth five and a half chickens but the guy doesnt want to give me half a chicken so he makes up the difference with money. I think money is good placing value on things. But I get what you are saying. And whats half a chicken between friends?

And I love Barter Town from the third Mad Max movie. Seems like a fair place in alot of ways.

No, you don't understand in resource based economy as envisioned in the venus project, nothing has value, nothing can be owned. For your example of pigs and chicken. Well if you already have chickens and want pigs, you will simply go to the cities central pig farm and pick one up and get it.

In the resource based economy, there is abundance for everyone. Everyone can have anything they want. For example you want a computer, you simply go and pick one up, no paying, no bartering. Any there are no workers only volunteers. For example volunteers to help grow food, or volunteers to oversee machines building cities etc. this system is very new and with the advent of advanced robots and computers is very possible. Most work will be done mechanically by robots. Only humans to oversee them.

reply to post by Germanicus


The bailing out of banks was a socialist program and it was inevitable, after the implementation of socialist programs known as "welfare" that corporations would be sticking their hands out as well. It is tragically desperate to use the language of your enemy, as in "other peoples money" in an attempt to demonize capitalism. The corporatist hates capitalism every bit as much as you seem to, which only makes you a tool to the corporatist agenda. The corporatist loves people like you.

You, of course, need an army in order to force your ideology down the throats of others while forcefully plundering their money to satisfy your own greed. God forbid you or other socialists join the free market and dare to compete. God forbid you and other socialists contribute to humanity when your ultimate goal is to take.

Like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, there are those among us who cherish freedom that no needy socialist could ever understand. Go ahead, march your army across the market place, resistance is not futile and freedom will someday reign.

reply to post by asen_y2k


That reminds me of an essay written by Oscar Wilde called The Soul Of a Man Under Socialism. His vision for socialism is what you describe. Its what I want too. We are close to it happening. There are robots that can run farms pretty much by themselves. We can produce more than enough for everyone if you take profit out of the equation. Most people think its crazy and impossible but we can make technology our slave. I think we should make clones to monitor the robots too. The Venus Project sounds good.

capitalism has an expiration date, and we are getting there. laying workers off for the profit of the guy at the top cannibilizes the whole system

the media reacts to the word socialism like someone just said ed gein

if you aren't 50 cent, it's not so bad !!!


stockholm syndrome part 1


part 2

reply to post by syrinx high priest


If socialism is so benign then why is the O.P. threatening everyone with an army? Why is it that pro-socialists can only advocate their ideology by attacking capitalism? If socialism is so good, then surely it must have some tenets that appeal to those who cherish freedom. What might those tenets be?

reply to post by Germanicus


The resourced based economy as describe by the Venus project is just an evolved form of socialism, which has complete freedoms, abundance for everyone, and no use of money or barter.

When socialism was described, humanity did not have advanced robotics or computers, so all the work had to be done my humans and a reward for the difficult work was in the form of money. Now that we have technology, let it be the slave.

But not many people are aware of this evolved form of socialism.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

It is tragically desperate to use the language of your enemy, as in "other peoples money" in an attempt to demonize capitalism.

Ha! I thought it was funny. Im so sick of that quote.And of hearing about Communist Russia. And of hearing about Woodrow Wilson.

Your Free Market leaves people behind. And how much does one need? There is enough for all of us if those that succeed are not so very greedy.

Free Market Capitalists are mostly National Socialists. Most Free Market Capitalists seem to be against globalisation and Imperialism. I am against Imperialism and Corporatism more than 'Capitalism' but they are all from the same profit family.

Socialism is the way of the futue.

reply to post by Germanicus


Outside of the black market, there is no such thing as a free and open market in any country. When you desperately claim that "(my) free market leaves people behind" you are speaking to the highly regulated markets that have thrust credentialism and licensing schemes down the throats of business. The markets you point to in complaint are not free markets and are much, much closer to socialism than they are free markets, which is why the banks were bailed out. Such a thing never would have happened in a free market.

Free markets, of course, are not bound to the principles of capitalism, and this may be too deep for your all ready strained brain, but under a free market, the socialist can live freely as a socialist as can the communist. Both can form their communities and live by their principles unencumbered by an state sanctions. However, reverse the situation and impose a socialist state and could the capitalist function unencumbered? Of course, the free market is gone under socialism, so we do not need to ask how a free marketeer could function, but in fairness to you, the free market doesn't exist anyway.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by syrinx high priest

 

If socialism is so benign then why is the O.P. threatening everyone with an army? Why is it that pro-socialists can only advocate their ideology by attacking capitalism? If socialism is so good, then surely it must have some tenets that appeal to those who cherish freedom. What might those tenets be?

I am not speaking for the OP, but you knew that. you seem to be focused on the supporters more than the idea. watch the videos I posted.

like i said, socialism is bad for 50 cent, but a better system for the "bottom" 90 %, the ones that don't want to have to choose between sending kids to college, getting bridge work done, or retiring

so I lose the ability to have a million dollar car. fine. send my kids to college and treat my moms long term disability without bankrupting the family and I'm ok with that

Originally posted by boncho
Capitalism today is not actual capitalism. There is nothing in capitalist ideology that suggests you should forgive debt and bail out failed institutions.

No Capitalism is competion where you bend the rules as far as you can get away with but that is not kosher for sheep to know by their masters. Socialism might work but only if it do not become a parasite on the single person like capitalism is and limits freedom to much. Both Capitalism and Socialism can be enslaving. The pyramid of power always corrupts and should be avoided but that lesson most people do not understand. Power shall be from the ground up not top down.

Freedom is the question. You cannot get to much freedom if you use it badly but you should not be limeted to much either. Allowing ego parasitic behaviour is what has gotten ous here but even socialist can become ego parasitic. Just look at the Soviet Union.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Free markets, of course, are not bound to the principles of capitalism, and this may be too deep for your all ready strained brain,

A strain wont stop me. I will stretch it out or walk it off. I can play through the pain.

And you can have a Free Market under Socialism if thats what gets you excited.

Although free-markets are commonly associated with capitalism today, free markets have been advocated by socialists and have been included in various proposals for market socialism where market allocation of capital is combined with self management in enterprises, and employee-owned cooperatives or publicly-owned enterprises operate in free markets

en.wikipedia.org...

I think what you really want is Market Socialism. Or Distributism maybe. I can tell you are some kind of Socialist. You just have not embraced your Inner Socialist yet. You will comrade. I think Market Socialism is for you. There is a flavour for everyone. We are all Socialists on the inside.

Originally posted by bulldetector
For all of its faults, and the corruption of crony capitalism, capitalism has by far been the greatest force for the rise in living standards for billions in the world. Even the UN and the IMO accept this.

Socialism and communism are a slow economic death spiral where competition, effort and success are envied, heavily taxed and ultimately defeated.

Only if material standard is the reason for what you do. Competion leads to war and violence in the end. Always have always will. Capitalism can be useful in the begining when the resourses are held by the many and the people do not know how to manipulate the system but in the end game when the resources and power have concentrated then it will collapse since there is no more wealth to parasite on.

reply to post by Germanicus


If free markets can be had under socialism then why do you need this army you of socialists you claim exists. Further, the Wikipedia article you linked only states that some socialism advocates claim free markets can be had under socialism. However, "market allocation of capital" is either done through a free market where no intrusion upon that "allocation" has been implemented, or this "allocation of capital" has been done through some sort of force, and that force necessarily negates the free market. You can point to the sky blue sky and call it purple rain all you like, it still remains a sky blue sky, or as Shakespeare said; "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet", and of course, manure by any other name would smell as bad.

reply to post by Germanicus


It was a free second-grade punctuation lesson from me to you, not a conversation starter.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by boncho
Capitalism today is not actual capitalism. There is nothing in capitalist ideology that suggests you should forgive debt and bail out failed institutions.

No Capitalism is competion where you bend the rules as far as you can get away with but that is not kosher for sheep to know by their masters. Socialism might work but only if it do not become a parasite on the single person like capitalism is and limits freedom to much. Both Capitalism and Socialism can be enslaving. The pyramid of power always corrupts and should be avoided but that lesson most people do not understand. Power shall be from the ground up not top down.

Freedom is the question. You cannot get to much freedom if you use it badly but you should not be limeted to much either. Allowing ego parasitic behaviour is what has gotten ous here but even socialist can become ego parasitic. Just look at the Soviet Union.

You really missed the point I was making. The system of government is broken. It has nothing to do with ideology.

Insert capitalism, socialism, or any other- ism in it's place. They are all destined to fail if there is no system to prevent manipulation at the highest order. And it's quite possible a system to prevent it doesn't exist.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Further, the Wikipedia article you linked only states that some socialism advocates claim free markets can be had under socialism.

Like I said,there is a flavour for everyone. Everyone can be given a reason to vote Socialist. Socialism is like a snake with 100 heads.

And you may have noticed that the masses are not too bright. They dont know whats good for them. They also cant absorb anything beyond the most simple idea. Socialism can be made appealing to anybody that isnt a Banker or Corporatist. It can be made even more appealing if we call it Nationalisation instead of Socialism. The word 'socialism' should not be used.

And most people think Nationalization is a fantasy. It isnt. Argentina had wild celebrations on the streets when they Nationalized part of their Oil Industry the other day. Imagine the corporatists reading about that. Nationalization makes them shake.

Selling Socialism will be as easy as saying Austerity = bad, Socialism = much better. Soon we will be having a party in the streets like our comrades in Argentina.

reply to post by Germanicus


What I have noticed is that there are dubious people who think too highly of themselves constantly yammering on about how the masses are not too bright. I don't deal with the masses. I deal with individuals, and most are far brighter than you.

No one has to vote for a free market. A free market does not need government sanction and in fact has a much better chance of existing without government than with it. If you cannot compete as an individual, I'm all for you forming alliances that give you a better competitive advantage. I am not for you using the force of the state to plunder others just so you don't have to compete.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
reply to post by Germanicus

 

It was a free second-grade punctuation lesson from me to you, not a conversation starter.

Yet you continue the conversation despite having nothing to add. Still.

Thanks again for your input. I sincerely appreciate it. I really do.

On Topic- Capitalism is bad.