The Rise Of Socialism And How Capitalism Ran Out Of Other Peoples Money.

reply to post by Germanicus


I for one already found and accepted the concept of socialism. Capitalism is not good for human race advancement at all. Democracy is good, socialism is good. Combine it and we get the best, Marist might not agree with it but his totalitarian way doesnt work either.

Social Democracy

Marxist prophecy - Marxists argue that social democratic and welfare state policies limit the incentive system of the market by providing things such as minimum wages, unemployment insurance, taxing profits and reducing the reserve army of labor, resulting in reduced incentives for capitalists to invest in more production. In essence, social welfare policies cripple the capitalism and its incentive system and are thus unsustainable in the long-run.

See current US debt to see the prophecy coming true.
Big debt - main chunk is for the healthcare, social security. How much the mega company invest ? Heh , they even siphon it out instead of investing. Apple to China hinted anything ?

reply to post by babybunnies


you don't have to have the best grasp of grammar or punctuation to change a regime. come on.

reply to post by Germanicus


If everyone was interested in "choosing" socialism it wouldn't be necessary to help that "choice" along with the barrel of a gun. Or tanks in Tiennamen Square. Or gulags in Russia. 24/7 propaganda in North Korea.

That's the real difference between capitalism and socialism. Under capitalism you and a group of like minded folks can choose to live on a commune in a socialist society. It's no threat to capitalism if you choose not to participate. But try having a capitalist haven under a socialist system and see how fast your ass ends up arrested, beaten, or killed. Capitalism is opt in. Socialism is not opt out. You WILL participate or you WILL be removed. The whole system REQUIRES that everyone plays.

Go ahead and cheer on the genocide of millions, though, if that's what makes you feel good. When you and your army march across my path, shoot to kill, kiddo, because I will not go quietly.

reply to post by Nietrick


The Capitalists dont like it when you live off the grid. Just ask a gypsie. Also if a group tries to live off the grid then the Government will often call them a cult and have them removed.

And its good that you want me to shoot to kill. Im glad you would die for what you believe. I think we need a war. A real war. Like the Spanish Civil War. That way we can all fight for what we believe in on the front lines. Im looking forward to it.

It has never worked and it never will work.

All socialist experiments turn in to a tyranny. Its inevitable. Humans don't want equality. They only say they do when looking at those with more. Socialism requires suppressing human nature and you need fear to do that. A new elite will impose themselves and we'll still be rulers and ruled, but poorer overall.

What we need a return to proper capitalism and a revised monetary system.

However I fear you may get your wish. If you do europe will burn again. The pendulum swung once more to tyranny and mass slaughter.

reply to post by Nietrick


the system we are required to adhere to NOW requires that everyone plays the game. we are born, sent to school and educated the way that TPTB want us to be. we are then pushed into getting a job, forced to pay tax after tax after tax and expected to conform to the rules imposed on us. all so a couple of blokes in suits can sit on their backsides and watch their fortune increase.

give me socialism anyday over this tripe. I'm with you OP, let's have a proper fight for what we believe in. if i die in the fight, so be it, because this reality is bordering on insanity.

You don't need to convert to a full socialistic government in order to see what a disaster it is. The US started heading towards socialism the first time it instituted an income tax, then accelerated the conversion with Social Security, then Medicare, Medicaid and other government welfare programs. The current administration has turned the throttle up even higher with Obamacare, and increased access to socialistic welfare programs, resulting in a cumulative deficit of almost $16,000,000,000,000.00! This deficit is not the result of capitalism, but the socialist programs mentioned above.
One need only look to recent history of the USSR to see where socialism ultimately leads. Socialism denies individuality, that quality of humanity that has resulted in advances in medicine, living standard, and all those electronic devices that the youth of the world are so addicted to.
Socialist tendencies in education have resulted in the "everyone needs to feel good" attitude so prevalent in education today, something I am quite familiar with. Denying that there are different paths for different people is complete insanity, but that is the ultimate goal of socialism. Furthermore, socialism, by its own very definition is an oxymoron, as a socialist society must, by its very nature, end up with a caste system, where the few govern and end up with the wealth, and the rest live a menial existence. The bottom line is that it is a system doomed to fail, due to the very nature of humanity.
It is truly amazing that in today's day and age, people can still believe that such a system can succeed. Take a look at Europe today. There are only two alternatives left there, either war or complete chaos, and in either case, the ultimate result will be the fall of socialist programs, as they are completely unsustainable. 9-5-2012 by ProfEmeritus because: (no reason given)

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

It is truly amazing that in today's day and age, people can still believe that such a system can succeed.

I am amazed by people that defend failed Capitalism to the bitter end.

Europe is capitalist,not socialist. They are in trouble because the Capitalist has bankrupt their countries with tax-payer backed bonds that were added to the National Debt. Are you going to claim Greeks are lazy too. And do you come from America? What a failure joke of a country. You defend that?

Welfare Program's are not Socialism. Europe is not Socialist. You seem confused.

Edit- The Imperial Empire is Capitalist. Unless you live in Cuba,Iran or North Korea you are a part of the Imperial Empire and Capitalist. Europe is Capitalist.

I am amazed by people that defend failed Capitalism to the bitter end.

Europe is capitalist,not socialist. They are in trouble because the Capitalist has bankrupt their countries with tax-payer backed bonds that were added to the National Debt. Are you going to claim Greeks are lazy too. And do you come from America? What a failure joke of a country. You defend that?

Welfare Program's are not Socialism. Europe is not Socialist. You seem confused.

reply to post by Germanicus


Truly, it is you that are confused.

First of all, the entire concept of a European Union is a socialist concept. It denies the essential difference between disparate societies and tries to impose the same rules and controls on 26 different societies.

Second point I will make is that I am not defending capitalism, I am defending individualism. They are two completely different concepts, that you obviously fail to understand.

Third point is that the US is FAILING, but not because of what it used to be, but because of what it has become. Without the US and England, as well as the other true democracies in WWII, Europe would be under a complete German dictatorship today. The US used to be the envy of the world. One need only look at the tens of millions of people that left everything they owned, such as my own parents, just to get to the US, where the opportunity for success and happiness existed for all that truly worked for it.

The fourth point is that I never called Greeks lazy, nor do I believe that. I believe that they were dragged into the European Union by people that did not understand what that socialist union truly would result in. They are now living in that horror. Remember that a union of 26 countries, or in the case of the old USSR, a "union" of socialist republics, denies individualism and the differences between disparate societies.

Finally, your anger seems to have won over reason. You need to calm down, and think about your reasoning, because it will only lead to more trouble than your country is in now.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

First of all, the entire concept of a European Union is a socialist concept.

It isnt Socialist. The EU is Imperialism.

And Hitler was fighting against these Imperialist Bankers. If Germany had won the world would be a better place.

And if you like Individualism you should read an essay written by Oscar Wilde called The Soul Of A Man Under Socialism. The essay is all about how Socialism offers true Individualism. Its a great essay.

Welfare Program's are not Socialism. Europe is not Socialist. You seem confused.

Edit- The Imperial Empire is Capitalist. Unless you live in Cuba,Iran or North Korea you are a part of the Imperial Empire and Capitalist. Europe is Capitalist.

edit on 9-5-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)

It is 'welfare programs'.
No apostrophe. Can't you learn?
And don't say it doesn't matter.
If you can't grasp and apply basic grammar conventions - how can you grasp political theory, and political reality?
You can't. That is abundantly clear.

The world does not conform to your mother's basement world political view.

Europe is deeply socialist. Welfare is the pit of socialism. Dependance on the State. No hated middle class, the abject miserable poor and the fantastically rich.

My wish is that you could live in North Korea - eating grass roots in a re-education camp while the rich party priviledged live like kings. But you don't have the spine to live out your convictions.

I've decided that you are hopeless or a troll - or a bit of both - and I'm not going to feed you anymore.
Best you sink yourself - with your own 'w'o'r'd's'.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

I am amazed by people that defend failed Capitalism to the bitter end.

Europe is capitalist,not socialist. They are in trouble because the Capitalist has bankrupt their countries with tax-payer backed bonds that were added to the National Debt. Are you going to claim Greeks are lazy too. And do you come from America? What a failure joke of a country. You defend that?

Welfare Program's are not Socialism. Europe is not Socialist. You seem confused.

reply to post by Germanicus

 

Truly, it is you that are confused.

First of all, the entire concept of a European Union is a socialist concept. It denies the essential difference between disparate societies and tries to impose the same rules and controls on 26 different societies.

Second point I will make is that I am not defending capitalism, I am defending individualism. They are two completely different concepts, that you obviously fail to understand.

Third point is that the US is FAILING, but not because of what it used to be, but because of what it has become. Without the US and England, as well as the other true democracies in WWII, Europe would be under a complete German dictatorship today. The US used to be the envy of the world. One need only look at the tens of millions of people that left everything they owned, such as my own parents, just to get to the US, where the opportunity for success and happiness existed for all that truly worked for it.

The fourth point is that I never called Greeks lazy, nor do I believe that. I believe that they were dragged into the European Union by people that did not understand what that socialist union truly would result in. They are now living in that horror. Remember that a union of 26 countries, or in the case of the old USSR, a "union" of socialist republics, denies individualism and the differences between disparate societies.

Finally, your anger seems to have won over reason. You need to calm down, and think about your reasoning, because it will only lead to more trouble than your country is in now.

Prof, wise words.

But you are casting pearls before swine.

A Hitler loving one at that.

Originally posted by bulldetector

Welfare Program's are not Socialism. Europe is not Socialist. You seem confused.

Edit- The Imperial Empire is Capitalist. Unless you live in Cuba,Iran or North Korea you are a part of the Imperial Empire and Capitalist. Europe is Capitalist.

edit on 9-5-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)

It is 'welfare programs'.
No apostrophe. Can't you learn?
And don't say it doesn't matter.
If you can't grasp and apply basic grammar conventions - how can you grasp political theory, and political reality?
You can't. That is abundantly clear.

The world does not conform to your mother's basement world political view.

Europe is deeply socialist. Welfare is the pit of socialism. Dependance on the State. No hated middle class, the abject miserable poor and the fantastically rich.

My wish is that you could live in North Korea - eating grass roots in a re-education camp while the rich party priviledged live like kings. But you don't have the spine to live out your convictions.

I've decided that you are hopeless or a troll - or a bit of both - and I'm not going to feed you anymore.
Best you sink yourself - with your own 'w'o'r'd's'.

edit on 9-5-2012 by bulldetector because: (no reason given)

"I am the Roman Emperor, and am above grammar." ...- Sigismund.

I like that quote. Im no King but I consider myself to be above grammer as well.

I dont even care that Im a poor speller.

Im sorry you care so much. I think its telling that you care about things like that. What are you compensating for?

And no,Europe is not deeply socialist. You dont understand Imperialism is all. I could give you a lesson. Just let me know hey.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus



The fourth point is that I never called Greeks lazy, nor do I believe that. I believe that they were dragged into the European Union by people that did not understand what that socialist union truly would result in. They are now living in that horror. Remember that a union of 26 countries, or in the case of the old USSR, a "union" of socialist republics, denies individualism and the differences between disparate societies.

Actually like Leprosy. Waiting for the appendages to fall off,one at a time.

The truth is that the USA started off completely capitalistic. By 1913 the USA had gone bankrupt several times. We are actually still operating under bankruptcy. Capitalism has already failed multiple times in our own USA.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Germanicus

 

Like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, there are those among us who cherish freedom that no needy socialist could ever understand. Go ahead, march your army across the market place, resistance is not futile and freedom will someday reign.

Ancient Sparta and freedom? That have to be some misunderstanding. Or your view of Sparta is based solely on that graphically impressive but quite boring Holly# movie.
So let see some "facts":

[...] Leonidas dismissed the bulk of the Greek army, and remained to guard the rear with 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians, 400 Thebans and perhaps a few hundred others, the vast majority of whom were killed.

Wiki
That is for 300 hundred and now freedom:

Sparta was unique in ancient Greece for its social system and constitution, which completely focused on military training and excellence. Its inhabitants were classified as Spartiates (Spartan citizens, who enjoyed full rights), Mothakes (non-Spartan free men raised as Spartans), Perioikoi (freedmen), and Helots (state-owned serfs, enslaved non-Spartan local population).
[...]
Aristotle describes the kingship at Sparta as "a kind of unlimited and perpetual generalship" (Pol. iii. I285a), while Isocrates refers to the Spartans as "subject to an oligarchy at home, to a kingship on campaign".
[...]
The Spartans were a minority of the Lakonian population. The largest class of inhabitants were the helots ...
... Thucydides remarked that "Spartan policy is always mainly governed by the necessity of taking precautions against the helots."

Wiki

In my mind Sparta resonates more with Nazi Germany than with any kind of freedom.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Germanicus

 

You fancy yourself a Stalin, a Mao or perhaps a thug like Castro or Che?

Stalin = An estimated 40 to 60 million dead.
Mao = An estimated 40 to 70 million dead.

Castro and Che also killed many innocent people to gain their power.

Real Socialism always leads to Dictators and great suffering by the people. Only systems based on the Free Market have ever produced a Free Society. You live off government handouts, the government own you as slaves. Are you a willing slave or a slave master?

I see in one post you use the term Nationalism? Shades of Stalin / Mao Batman

Usually this comes from people who don't work or participate, the same ones who demand the handouts from money stolen from those who did the work. Do you work? Do you support yourself?

I do work and get lesser pay than what I produce in value so that people on the top who manipulate everything get nice saleries on my work. We are a slave to money so why not socialsm where I at least can be an equal slave and get rid of the slavemasters. You should also factor in that Capitalsim cannot allow Socialism to work and constantly do everything to destroy it. I want everybody to get the fair share and be able to buy what is needed but I will not even be able to afford a house since capitalism has made everything so insanly expensive. If I save up a 1000 days of wages and a house can be built by people in 8000 manhours (including materialprduction) then I deserve to be able to buy that house. If I can't then the system is screwed up as it is.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

I am amazed by people that defend failed Capitalism to the bitter end.

Europe is capitalist,not socialist. They are in trouble because the Capitalist has bankrupt their countries with tax-payer backed bonds that were added to the National Debt. Are you going to claim Greeks are lazy too. And do you come from America? What a failure joke of a country. You defend that?

Welfare Program's are not Socialism. Europe is not Socialist. You seem confused.

reply to post by Germanicus

 

Truly, it is you that are confused.

First of all, the entire concept of a European Union is a socialist concept. It denies the essential difference between disparate societies and tries to impose the same rules and controls on 26 different societies.

Second point I will make is that I am not defending capitalism, I am defending individualism. They are two completely different concepts, that you obviously fail to understand.

Third point is that the US is FAILING, but not because of what it used to be, but because of what it has become. Without the US and England, as well as the other true democracies in WWII, Europe would be under a complete German dictatorship today. The US used to be the envy of the world. One need only look at the tens of millions of people that left everything they owned, such as my own parents, just to get to the US, where the opportunity for success and happiness existed for all that truly worked for it.

The fourth point is that I never called Greeks lazy, nor do I believe that. I believe that they were dragged into the European Union by people that did not understand what that socialist union truly would result in. They are now living in that horror. Remember that a union of 26 countries, or in the case of the old USSR, a "union" of socialist republics, denies individualism and the differences between disparate societies.

Finally, your anger seems to have won over reason. You need to calm down, and think about your reasoning, because it will only lead to more trouble than your country is in now.

EU is a grouping of countries that are becoming more like each other to suit the corperations/capitalism. So you do not know the reason for EU is similar rules to make it easier to trade? The EU is always trying to keep the current system going and not change to socialism. And I live in Sweden where we pay high taxes that is used in welfare that give big corperations extreme profits in taxparadises so do not call us socialist. We are pure capitalists where we are being bleed out by both state and corperations at the same time, that is trying to implement what have already been seen to fail in the US by the insane corrupt poleticians.

The US dream was and always will be a dream (propaganda).

The greek did not fail because of EU. They failed because they had poleticians and capitalist that where corrupt that stole the money and did not do what they where supposed to. And EU want's the greek people to pay for what the thieves stole when the common man did not get anything for it. It is a bit like Iceland but Iceland went after the thieves instead.

It is like you living in a state in USA and bankrobbers stealing the taxes from the state so the state is broke and the people are asked to pay what was stolen since the state need to loan money to operate and letting the robbers go free.

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Which systems lead to progress and prosperity for the most for instance? To date that has never been a Socialist Society.

The reason is simple enough. If we wake in the morning knowing that a Nanny State will take care of your needs, you have no motivation to do anything meaningful.

Soviet Russia in twenties and thirties was not socialistic society by my measures. I just suppose that for you it was socialistic society. The fact is that during some 20 years were Bolsheviks able to kick start economy and raise standard of living for hundreds of millions of people. Russia at 1917 was feudal dictatorship with almost no industry. Majority of people lived in terrible condition at country literally exploited and often tortured by their landlords. Read Dostoievsky or Tolstoy to get some image of situation of common folks there. Almost all folks were analphabet. Compare it with situation 20 or 40 years later.
I really do not like Bolsheviks, I do not agree with communists (leading role of the party) but I can see the good things they did. And this does NOT mean that I agree with means used in this example.
In Russia there was socialism between March and November 1917. Then totalitarian sect called Bolsheviks took power. Very instructive is Kronstadt story. From this date anarchists do not cooperate with Bolsheviks and communists.

Those who don't study history are bound to repeat it.
You need to go back to school and study a little history.
Without tyranny, socialism fails every time. No kidding, it's in the books.
France, Germany and Greece, are merely voting themselves a paycheck on overdrawn accounts.
See ya in the funny papers.