Exposing the tragic fabrication of a saviour of the world

reply to post by BiggerPicture

. . . with Abrahamic religion it seems "Apologetics" is the crux that hold up the Scriptures - that is, the various versions of God having conversations with select 'prophets".

I think the reason that Christianity is an "Abrahamic religion" is so they can use an important element of it, which is the idea that God can, and is actually predicted to, show up in person looking like an ordinary person, to set the world right.
Other than that, I don't see any other useful connection with that former institution, and Paul divorces the dependency of the Gospel on it other than to give a very vague statement that it was "according to scripture".

reply to post by pthena


Thanks, pthena, I just looked at your link, and the book looks awesome...
unfortunately my local library doesn't have it. Guess I'll have to fork over some cash...boo...

Yes, though, looks like an indispensable personal library acquisition!

Certainly, what the organized churches have done to the story for Jesus makes it largely a myth that enveloped the real story of Jesus from falling back to earlier period beliefs.

What is happening is the organized churches are "dead of the spirit of Jesus," meaning they lost the real story of Jesus the Man due to the push to make Jesus, the god, which isn't true.
of Revelations
So, all the issuesare due to this embellished story on Jesus being reset back to reality, but it comes via several wars due to religions that know the facts and those that resist the truth.

Such is the End-Times where the issue of Rapture is about those that suddenly learn of the depths of depravity to which the real story has been converted into a myth.

Did Jesus exist, sure, just not as the organized churches seek to portray it. They become the dumb Beasts of Armageddon, the anti-Christs that oppose the simple truths of Jesus, The Man.

Jesus didn't die nailed to a tree, but he likely came close. He lived by the gifts of nature with aloe Vera and Myrrh, which were strong methods to heal puncture wounds for the times.


It is easy to see why many call the story of Jesus as myth because it was so abducted from reality back to the religious formula of old, making it largely not true.

But, there comes a quickening when the masses realize to what extents they have been lied to and deceived. It progresses to the common sense of what did happen in the sense of reality and these folks find themselves raised from the Dead in Jesus to the Truth, which is the Rapture theme that became popular around the times of the US Constitution was written.

So, with studies of works like the one here folks can begin to sense and double check why Jesus is more myth that reality and even recover the realities of what was happening in those times. And in doing this process one Brings Heaven Upon the Earth and proper respect for the Jesus theme for heaven upon the Earth and not in the skies or clouds.

It is good to have deep discussions of why the falling away from the truth happened, and they have lessons learned to move into the correct themes and truth.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

What is happening is the organized churches are "dead of the spirit of Jesus," meaning they lost the real story of Jesus the Man due to the push to make Jesus, the god, which isn't true.
of Revelations
So, all the issuesare due to this embellished story on Jesus being reset back to reality, but it comes via several wars due to religions that know the facts and those that resist the truth.

Such is the End-Times where the issue of Rapture is about those that suddenly learn of the depths of depravity to which the real story has been converted into a myth.

I see it that way, too...
the Rapture, in my mind, is the Awakening to the collective awareness of what was meant by "Thy Kingdom Come on Earth" -- peace on Earth and Goodwill toward Men. It isn't going to be a sudden disappearance of physical bodies or rising of zombies...it won't be a one-minute-they're-here-the-next-they're-gone sort of thing. It has started...and is spreading...like seeds afloat on a gentle breeze.

Namaste, Magnus....thanks for chiming in!

Still, if the entire Bible was written by Romans based on fiction for control, as Joseph Atwill claims, how do we connect the idea of global awakening to the Bible at all? Certainly there are themes included in it that have withstood eons of wisdom and been part of cultural traditions all over the world among very different societies....

if the Romans wrote it purely to control people, why did they bother with using the benevolent Eastern and other ancient teachings? To bring in "heathens" because they knew without it those "heathens" would revolt? To give it some form of credibility? I suppose, though, one would have to toss a few crumbs out there that everyone would nibble on...then rell them in. Right?

Hmmm. Social systems and group dynamics are fascinating.

reply to post by wildtimes

I think that in the last 1700 years MUCH has been established that debunks MUCH of the Bible, and that it therefore is out of date and too confusing to do any good at this point.

Right now, as far as I know, no one has come up with a better version. I wish I was qualified to make one, but for the time being, it is up to individuals to make the necessary choices as to what parts they are going to integrate into their personal philosophy.
There is a lot of good stuff out there, such as the book Pthena brought up on this thread, Caesar's Christ, for the Gospels, to get an idea of what may or may not have been going on with the writing of those. For the OT stories, I just found a brand new book just published like two weeks ago, The Earliest Israelites, written by someone who is apparently an expert on the ancient history and politics of what we now call Turkey (and all the nationalities that originated from there, including the Semites).

reply to post by jmdewey60


Hmm i gave it some thought but to me in my mind some parts don't agree but some do, i guess there will always be a little part about religion that i won't understand...

i'm not religious myself, i don't subscribe to any of those labels so to say, but i do subscribe to some of the teachings.

I know for myself, bottom line is all people on earth believe in the exact same thing, a god / a power / energy / etc.. i think that deep down we all know that. If a scientist and a religious man would have a conversation about who/what created the universe they would have the same definition for 2 different names... Energy & God , both in those 2 different believes have a major role to play and both share the same definition of believe, both can't be broken, destroyed, both always have been, always will be, both play a drastic roll in everything...

Something so simple to understand... yet so hard to accept to millions of people, but i believe that one day we all will be under the same umbrella

reply to post by jmdewey60

For the OT stories, I just found a brand new book just published like two weeks ago, The Earliest Israelites, written by someone who is apparently an expert on the ancient history and politics of what we now call Turkey (and all the nationalities that originated from there, including the Semites).

Ack...don't tease me!! Author and title?
Also, if you would kindly read my last reply to Magnum and respond with thoughts, I'd appreciate hearing your ideas there.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by racasan

 

. . . and are beginning to see black/white answers as useless and even dangerous for our future wellbeing . . .

Ok, but who is thinking what?
Is it the "masses" that are allowing for the grey, and the powers that be who are in the black/white mentality?
Are they going to bring us into a world war that will eventually settle out to a coming back to sanity?
I do not see that as a viable option since we see the high ideals represented by the Nuremberg trials and the formation of the UN Charter, and the institution of war crime laws and laws for humanity, at the end of WW II. Only to see them go straight down the tubes in the 60's with Vietnam and the Six Day War.
I think we need to wake up now, and not later after billions of war dead.

Would be a black and white question

Even the elites are caught in the tyranny of black and white thinking (even if at the moment it seems to be benefiting them) if the rest of the world does move away from that ‘logic trap’ then the elites will be simply ignored and abandoned

For example go to any website that deals with economics (you know shares trading, stock markets and so on) and you can find post after post pointing out that the fiat money system is a disaster and that it should just end and the only ones who are fighting to keep the fiat system as the status quo are governments and bankers and I am now starting to see that change now

Religion as a marketable idea has lost out to the insights that science has brought us about the nature of the universe.
When I compare quantum physics to the bible then I have to go along with what Peter Cook had to say about the bible – there’s not enough there to keep the mind alive

reply to post by Archon23

... Energy & God , both in those 2 different believes have a major role to play and both share the same definition of believe, both can't be broken, destroyed, both always have been, always will be, both play a drastic roll in everything...

I see God as a person or persons, similar to how we are all persons but all classified as people.
The universe is a really big thing and not created by an individual, but the collective will of what became us, god and man, as the persons who ended up inhabiting it and being individuals. I do not see as the goal a sort of coming together except in a spiritual way as in being in harmony, but the more the better, as I said, in a really big place.

reply to post by kingofmd

Impossible. I can say quite confidently that you and the others were never Christians.

I will quote to you the same thing I said to "manna2".

Do you know me personally? Were you there to measure my passion? Were you there to see me witness, and pray the sinners prayer with converts? Were you there when I preached, taught, and served as an elder? Were you there the countless hours I spent pouring over scripture late into the night? Did you hear and answer my prayers for wisdom and revelation? Were you there when I was visiting and praying for the sick and the dying? Or the battered wives of christian husbands? Or to feed and cloth the homeless from my own pocket? Were you there for almost 30 years of my life? No. You weren't my friend. Don't tell me about passion, enlightenment, testimony, and the holy spirit when you have no idea about my life as a christian.

You can find the whole post here, for reference.

reply to post by wildtimes

. . . how do we connect the idea of global awakening to the Bible at all?

I believe I can detect traces of thinking found in John Bowman's books in Atwill's book on the gospels. Bowman is very complex and difficult to understand, but something someone like Atwill could, and so you have an individual's synthesis with Bowman's ideas as a take-off point.
What I could say about Atwill is a criticism by scholars given to Bowman's work, of being "too clever". There is no way that anyone has ever been able to give a full accounting for what is in the Gospels. What I imagine is there was a person who knew about Jesus and maybe some people one-way-or-another connected with Jesus, and been involved in debates over Jesus with Christians. Who I mean is Paul, who was someone with the right background and personality to take it a step farther, who did have Jesus come to him in some way in order to teach him what was real, and he went out and talked about what he was told, and eventually wrote about it. From that point, once it caught hold in the way he presented it, it was a game of catch-up for other writers to build from that and so you have the Gospels to flesh out the character where Paul himself did not bother. But they they did it in a way to support the principles that Paul taught, but also to explain what happened to the temple cult which needed an alternative once the Romans put an end to that.
Here's the link to that book on the Israelites

reply to post by jmdewey60

What I could say about Atwill is a criticism by scholars given to Bowman's work, of being "too clever". There is no way that anyone has ever been able to give a full accounting for what is in the Gospels.

Ahh. I know exactly what you mean, then....

do you think it will ever be unraveled? Or that it matters?
thanks for the linkydink!

Originally posted by wildtimes

I see it that way, too...
the Rapture, in my mind, is the Awakening to the collective awareness of what was meant by "Thy Kingdom Come on Earth" -- peace on Earth and Goodwill toward Men. It isn't going to be a sudden disappearance of physical bodies or rising of zombies...it won't be a one-minute-they're-here-the-next-they're-gone sort of thing. It has started...and is spreading...like seeds afloat on a gentle breeze.

Yes, that is the quickening and more and more are learning the real issues for the correct interpretations. Many will be slow to learn and they get left behind as the more intelligent take the lead.

I am sure part of the problems were the Astrology on a King would be Born stated Jesus' trouble from birth almost, as that King term was used for his state punishment. And pushed along by the Pharisee.

All the misunderstandings seemed to compound themselves as the issues of the Essene wanted to have Heaven Upon the Earth or as you cite "Thy Kingdom Come on Earth" meant that god also had to come to the Earth and too many misread this as Jesus would become god. Which is wrong as he was only the way to knowing god and the total truth on religion made heaven on Earth and god contained automatically.

The problems is they got way to caught up with their embellished languages and allegorical speaking, so that even the Disciples took off in wrong directions. John, in Revelations, appears to have recognized all the wrong directions and predicts all the churches would fall away from the truth and this is the central issue for the Rapture back to being on track with the correct beliefs.


These days the mess is rather difficult to untangle because it is like the issues of Little Shop of Horrors Movie where the masses desire the Feed Me with the embellished stories for Jesus miracles in place of the reality of Jesus, The Man. Seemingly everyone has to have sensationalism these days as they can't believe in Jesus, The Man.


How the message of Jesus returns is it reincarnates in the minds of all men (and women) capable of the critical thought to explain the real deal of the times, and since that is a rare commodity these days there are very few around for the Rapture into the truth for Heaven Upon the Earth. No one is going to fly off into the clouds and the dead bodies of those long passed are not going to come out like Michael Jackson's Thriller theme.

What happens is the Dead of Mind on the treachings of Jesus, the Man, returns to reality, and the faked up stories are put away for all time. When that happens, it is Jesus return and the goal is reached for Heaven upon the Earth.

It is just a snap of the finger away or the twinkle of an eye away for those that dare to think, read, and reason beyond the one book that supported too many embellishments for Jesus, The Man.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus

All the misunderstandings seemed to compound themselves as the issues of the Essene wanted to have Heaven Upon the Earth or as you cite "Thy Kingdom Come on Earth" meant that god also had to come to the Earth and too many misread this as Jesus would become god. Which is wrong as he was only the way to knowing god and the total truth on religion made heaven on Earth and god contained automatically.

The problems is they got way to caught up with their embellished languages and allegorical speaking, so that even the Disciples took off in wrong directions. John, in Revelations, appears to have recognized all the wrong directions and predicts all the churches would fall away from the truth and this is the central issue for the Rapture back to being on track with the correct beliefs.

Really? What else does John say in the book of Revelation?

Revelation 11:15

15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Let's compare it to another verse in the Old Testament:

Zechariah 14:9

9) And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Sounds to me like God's going to set everyone straight on the fact that the "Lord" (God) in the Old Testament and the "Lord" (Jesus) in the New Testament are one and the same and will be merged together once again when He comes to rule on the earth. So, God/Jesus will be LORD. No more separating the two.

There's nothing in Revelation 11:15 that mentions that the Lord and his Christ are THEY, but HE.

reply to post by wildtimes

Wait! That author doesn't stand up well, from what I've seen. It's probably better than the mentioned, The True Authorship of The New Testament, Reuchlin, Abelard, however. The theories seem to be similar.

Richard Carrier has an ongoing debate going with Bart Ehrman concerning Ehrman's book Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth.

Carrier lists books and authors that he rates higher than Ehrman's.

It’s almost as bad, in fact, as The Jesus Mysteries by Freke & Gandy (and I did not hyperlink that title because I absolutely do not want you to buy it: it will disease your mind with rampant unsourced falsehoods and completely miseducate you about the ancient world and ancient religion)
Ehrman on Jesus: A Failure on Facts and Logic

Theissen & Merz’s The Historical Jesus gets the nod for still best case made in favor . . . from Carrier, the Atheist.

Almost none of this 361 page book is a critique of the “bad” mythicists. He barely even mentions most of them. Indeed, if he mentioned Atwill even once it was in passing at best, and for the few authors he spends any time discussing (mainly Murdock and Freke & Gandy), he is largely dismissive and careless (indeed, his only real refutation of them amounts to little more than nine pages, pp. 21-30). I was hoping for a well-researched refutation of these authors so I could recommend this book to students, so they could see what sound scholarship looks like and to correct the errors in their heads after reading authors like these. But this book simply doesn’t do that.
- - Ibid.

So, looks like Carrier lumps Atwill in with Murdock, Freke&Gandy for leaving errors in people's heads.

But even his treatment of the “good” mythicists (which comprises maybe half the book) is weak to the point of useless. This would be (principally) myself, Robert Price, Earl Doherty, G.A. Wells, Thomas Thompson, and (perhaps) Frank Zindler.

Perhaps Robert Price and Earl Doherty would be worth a look. Frank Zindler seems a bit mean and nasty, from an article of his I read.

I hope this helps.

reply to post by wildtimes

. . . do you think it will ever be unraveled? Or that it matters?

For now, I think we should be content with the knowledge that we are in danger from using too literal of interpretations from the stories and to make use of the good themes involved, such as not getting the attitude that other people are inferior to ourselves and that God does not somehow love them.
The author of the web site you linked to in the OP had a complaint that books like Romans and 1 Corinthians was "too long to be letters". Well, they weren't, exactly, what they purport to be, but were introductory essays by Paul to go in advance of his arrival into areas, to familiarize people with his ideas, so that when he did come, he could "get down to business" with them. There is evidence that these were "pasted together" as the author of the site claims but that would have been the case with the original publication which formed the core of what later became the new Testament. He edited then to fit well with the format of the day for creating books from parchment. That just makes sense if you are going to mass produce copies of his book, in manuscript form. These would be Romans, First and Second Corinthians, and Galatians, just how they are arranged in Bibles today. There is a reason for that, which is how they fit together to make a single book. So they were arranged as essays to fit different situations and were probably expansions of earlier actual letters.
What I think is important for literally today, is to not wish for war, since I am worried about Sarkozy trying to invade Syria before he leaves office as Premier of France. Even though the Bible mentions war, it is not the proper path, as Jesus says in the Gospel, 'there will be wars but that is not the end.' We do not want to be the harbingers of plague, like the frogs before the angel of death in Exodus.

We may also look at what happens psychologically to a Christian who begins to doubt that any of the Gospel accounts hold up to historical-critical scrutiny.

Matt 10:32 Everyone therefore who confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven.

This little gem here. Isn't this emotional blackmail? Doesn't this set up a serious psychological/psychosomatic/emotional barrier, a taboo?

Of course it does. So a Christian can go all the way to becoming an Atheist, and yet feel the barrier, "But I can't quite deny Jesus!"

That's the point where many former Christians dummy up. "I just won't say anything about it, one way or the other."

So I can only ask myself: "Does the hidden man, that I've felt with me for much of my life, somehow validate a doctrine, a story, a religion, or does that hidden man exist in some way completely apart from the stories, even if the stories are complete bumpkis ?"

Where actually do and should my allegiances lie? With the hidden man, or with stories I don't even believe?

Edit to add:

And wouldn't it be the height of emotional extortion for some person or institution to coerce from another some verbal confession one way or the other? Absolutely.

reply to post by Deetermined


So you're saying that despite numerous protests that Jesus never claimed to be God, they will in fact unite in the end times?

I still say it's a bunch of baloney. Never take books written before 500 AD seriously...they are usually written in metaphor, considering the lack of sophisticated language.

Four-legged hairy badger making loud noises, otherwise known as a dog. That kind of unsophisticated.

reply to post by pthena

"Does the hidden man, that I've felt with me for much of my life, somehow validate a doctrine, a story, a religion, or does that hidden man exist in some way completely apart from the stories, even if the stories are complete bumpkis ?"

I think it depends on what this is. Is it someone watching you, as in judging you, where you are always imagining someone is looking over your shoulder who you need to somehow keep happy? If that is what it is, then I would say it is just part of your psychological makeup and may not be especially helpful and is really more of a barrier to God than a connection.
For example, after my former girlfriend died, it took me a long time to where I got rid of the feeling of someone constantly watching me. Also, even weirder, would be personifying the internet (and I don't mean the people on it, but the automated computer driven part) and imagining that it actually cared what I was doing on it.
I think a healthier outlook would be to think that God is rather busy and is not paying attention every single second. When things get critical, then you need God to intervene, and I think that sort of thing happens more than people realize. But really, what should concern us most is just normal human interaction and not doing things we will regret later. Now that does not mean you sit around thinking about heaven and hell, but to have a spiritual connection to God which energizes you to do what you then realize is right.

Originally posted by Starchild23


So you're saying that despite numerous protests that Jesus never claimed to be God, they will in fact unite in the end times?

The protests are coming from people who don't really know Jesus. Here's what Jesus said to John...

Revelation 1:17-18

17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And why is it that some people don't HEAR Jesus' voice?

John 10:24-30

24) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30) I and my Father are one.