Calling All Carnivores Tell Us Why It’s Ethical to Eat Meat: A Contest, A Summary, A Winner

Originally posted by truthrising2012
in summary eating a animal based diet:

-consumes 1/3 raw materials & fossil fuels
-uses half the fresh water
-pollute half of fresh water
-depletes fresh water
-poisons food supply
-destroys Top Soil
-destroys Forests
-destroys Biodiversity
-destroys species

We are building an aquaponics farm down here right now. This is a form of animal husbandry, i.e. fish farming, combined with hydroponic vegetables, where the fish poop is the fertilizer for the plants, and the plants are the filter for the fish' water, thereby using almost zero water. Less than one percent of the water used by traditional farming of any kind. Plus everything by its very design is all organic, far more than any so called organic farms even. Aquaponics FTW! It is the wave of the future:



Also, these guys in Wisconsin are making a big splash with a partly aquaponics based system, with vermiculture added and vertical gardening, they are producing TONS of food out of just greenhouses

. Amazing!

We are doing a setup like this one:

Originally posted by CaptChaos

Originally posted by truthrising2012
in summary eating a animal based diet:

-consumes 1/3 raw materials & fossil fuels
-uses half the fresh water
-pollute half of fresh water
-depletes fresh water
-poisons food supply
-destroys Top Soil
-destroys Forests
-destroys Biodiversity
-destroys species

We are building an aquaponics farm down here right now. This is a form of animal husbandry, i.e. fish farming, combined with hydroponic vegetables, where the fish poop is the fertilizer for the plants, and the plants are the filter for the fish' water, thereby using almost zero water. Less than one percent of the water used by traditional farming of any kind. Plus everything by its very design is all organic, far more than any so called organic farms even. Aquaponics FTW! It is the wave of the future:

Also, these guys in Wisconsin are making a big splash with a partly aquaponics based system, with vermiculture added and vertical gardening, they are producing TONS of food out of just greenhouses

. Amazing!

We are doing a setup like this one:

That's a very good setup!! that method certainly is one which reduces the consumption of water. Wish I had the land to build an aquaponics farm! I hope the construction turns out well for you.

reply to post by CaptChaos

And I notice, as usual, no one even mentions FISH. All this nonsense about cruelty to animals from the vegans, but somehow it's different for fish.

Vegans don't eat fish. The name alone implies it. They believe eating animal product is cruel and you can hear them whine about Fish if you'd like. Just go look on youtube and you'll find plenty of it.

seriously... only this species can turn sustenance into a question of morals


Sharks eat humans. Lions eat humans. Hippo's, Crocodiles,...... they're not thinking about if its ethical. EVEN YOUR DOG will eat you if you die and no one finds you fast enough and he's hungry.



Damn right I'm eating a dolphin if its put in front of me and I'm hungry. And if I was in the Donner party, I probably would've eaten a human.

Originally posted by Lord Jules
I'd just like to comment on some of the comments:

1. If eating meat is what made humans advanced evolutionary species, why haven't the lions not evolved yet?

2. Eating meat requires that the animal dies. Eating vegetables does not involve killing the plant, more like 'milking' the fruit. Some plants like pinneapples can be eaten then replanted. Its not a matter of ethics its a matter of efficiency.

Humanities Evolution was driven by a change in climate as the African Jungle Enviroment dried and changed to Savanna...our at one time tree climbing ancestors evolved to be Bi-Pedal and needed to walk upright as to see further distances acroos these grassy plains in order to find food as well as see danger.

A Human Being even to this day has a very efficient form of Energy Burning and Conservation. A Human even now can out run and track down any other animal on Earth. No other animal has a Humans endurance nor can any animal but a Human run or jog all day and all night. It is in being Bi-Pedal that our ability to store fat and make calories available efficiently to extent greater than any other animal. No matter how fast an animal is...a Human Being will track it down and be able to kill it.

Eating High Protien as well as Omega Fatty Acids allowed for the development of a complex brain. This is not possible in a vegetarian diet. We are designed by evolution to be omniverous. Even the most Nutricionally conscious Vegetarian cannot replace specific needed protiens that allow a person to develop specific muscle density. I sometimes work out with a friend who is Vegan and no matter how hard he tries...he cannot gain muscle in certain areas. He is 15 years younger than I and I eat a varied mix of Meats and Organic Vegetables. We both started lifting free weights after I realized that the machines were not doing it for me. We are about the same height...I am 6 ft. 1 inch and he is 6 ft. 2 inches. He used to be about the same thickness but since starting to be a true Vegan...lost weight. After 3 Months of lifting...He ripped his Bicept and had to stop. I was curling and pressing almost three times his workout weight even though he is younger. He healed up and started again a year later...this time he tore a muscle in his back. Now he eats Fish and Cheese as well as Chicken and drinks Milk...I eat alot of Yogurt. He is much better now and looks better. He told me that after a workout when he was a true Vegan...he would not be hungry and his doctor said he was going into a state of Metabolic Shutdown. The Doctor said his body did not have sufficient fat or protien stores and could not properly repair the tears in muscle that occur when lifting thus this is why he was ripping a Bicept and other Muscles.

I would not recommend a True Vegan Diet to anyone. Split Infinity

reply to post by Forevever


Yes, we are a species that has the ability to make moral decisions.
Perhaps sharks and lions do, I don't know... but humans definitely have a CHOICE (for the most part) of what they eat.
It is tempting to present extreme "what if" examples to try and prove a point, but it doesn't really address the issue of ethics.
Just because a vegetarian might eat meat under an extreme circumstance in order to survive, doesn't mean that it invalidates the decision under normal circumstances to not consume animal products.

I'm by no means suggesting that you shouldn't eat meat if you want to. Just pointing out that human beings, at this point in our history of evolution, can survive just fine on either a meat eating or vegetarian diet.
Everyone has their own reasons for deciding what's best for them.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


It sounds like your friend wasn't very well educated on how to get the appropriate fats and proteins while eating vegan.
Raw virgin coconut oil, raw nuts, and seeds (especially hemp), are some good sources.

Personally, I prefer adding raw dairy and bee products to my diet (not vegan, I realize)... I lift weights and have no issues with strength and stamina.

I agree with you that a true vegan diet can cause health issues. You can get omegas from hemp, chia, and flax; but b-12 can be an issue.
Really, everyone should supplement a b-complex, not just vegans.

reply to post by RifeRules

I admit I do not know for sure exactly what supplements he took but he is the type of guy who reads up on everything to do with any specific action he takes so I am assuming he took the right supplements. He did not consume dairy of any kind as you do. That alone probably keeps you healthy.

I do not judge what people wish to do or become. i will judge what they teach or force their children to eat as a Child needs lots of Fats and Proteins to develop properly. It is this that I have an aversion to and I consider it a form of Child Abuse. I have also seen it first hand.

As an ADULT...you can do as you wish but as a CHILD...you depend on your parents. When a parent tells their child not to eat what they desperatly need....it is a crime. Split Infinity

reply to post by RifeRules

I do agree with you, and I have no problem with your point that we can either eat meat or not eat meat - I just do not see it as a moral issue in any way. These are rules we place upon ourselves, or that agree with society as a whole.

I can give you extreme examples why both of those are wrong, but you already told me not to do that so I'm not sure how to prove my point.


Perhaps the only way to settle the dilemma is truly to go back to a time where you had to slaughter your own cows and pigs to have meat to eat. In the most basic of senses and in no way dramatized or exagerated or extreme - and not specifically directly to you, but to anyone.... If I was a farmer who knew you were coming for dinner and slaughtered my prize pig to serve, would you eat it? Would not denying my hospitality also be "unethical"? would you first ask me how I killed it? Is it then a question of "the lesser of 2 evils"?

In the "guest" role, I'd be screwed either way....

Isn't it also unethical then to pass by the food they have in the supermarket that they put there for you to consume, when you know there are people starving in the world? The least you could do is enjoy whats available to you, otherwise it will end up in the trash!

They will never stop slaughtering cows, pigs, chickens, deer, and boatloads of fish, and I don't think they should. Cause I like to eat them, and quite frankly I'm a wimp! I can't kill anything! I'd be more likely to kill a human than a cow/pig/chicken/deer/fish/whateveryoueat cause I can harbor anger and strong emotion against a human. Animals never did a thing to me... .yet

now you got me rambling and I completely lost my train of thought I may have failed to make my point...

oh yeah! like I always tell myself, "keep it simple stupid".



Simply: Your morals/ethics are yours. Mine are mine. Mine do not believe this should be a moral/ethical question.

reply to post by SplitInfinity


I understand what you are saying.
I don't have children, so am not faced with that type of decision.

I get uncomfortable when faced with specific examples or anecdotes of people that are unhealthy, because I can't know what their entire diet is like.
Many vegan/vegetarian diets ARE unhealthy... just as many meat-eating diets can be.
I've known vegetarians that eat a lot of breads and packaged "health-foods" that certainly aren't good for them.
Should all vegetarian diets be condemned because of people like them?

Which meat-eater is likely healthier? The one who buys his steak from a local farm, where the cows are raised on grass and not injected with hormones and antibiotics? Or the guys who eats fast food burgers and peperoni pizzas every night?

Most of us are fortunate enough to have access to a wide variety of healthy foods, whether you want to eat meat or not. I believe that even children can get the appropriate nutrients on a vegetarian diet. Vegan... well, that might be difficult.

reply to post by Forevever

I am a Hunter and believe me...no meat of any kind goes to waste at my home. I understand the sacrifice of the animal I have killed to be able to eat. It is sad to see people distance themselves from understanding this and I believe everyone should at one time take part in the killing, dressing and cutting up into parts of an animal.

After a person does this...they will not take their food or meat for granted. Split Infinity

reply to post by Forevever


I totally understand what you are saying.
I guess my point was that we are fortunate to live in a time and place where we have those types of choices.
Obviously it is complicated... your point about food waste is a good one. I might argue that if enough people quite eating meat, then the demand would eventually diminish.
What we decide to eat today leads to what is available for us tomorrow.

It's funny that you brought up the ability to kill your own food... I've been thinking about that recently.
Several years ago (when I still ate meat), a friend of mine at work told me that he thought that unless you have ever hunted and killed your own food, you have no right to eat meat.
As someone who had never hunted, and had no intention of ever doing so, I was slightly defensive... but I respected his viewpoint.
I'm a vegetarian now (for different reasons), but I think I understand and respect his beliefs better now than I did then. So many people have no clue about where their food comes from, and what it actually means to take a life in order to sustain yours.

Obviously, we live in a society where meat is abundant, and we can pay people to do the "dirty" work for us.
I can't help but wonder how many more vegetarians there would be, if everyone had to meet my friend's requirements.

reply to post by RifeRules

a friend of mine at work told me that he thought that unless you have ever hunted and killed your own food, you have no right to eat meat.

I have debated this issue myself - do I have a right? I don't know if its a right.... I think of it this way - if we were back in those days, the man would be doing the killing and I'm a girl , so as long as he kills it, I'm allowed to eat it!


To the post by SplitInfinity - props that you hunt and kill your own meat - I do not envy you, but I do know many hunters and have mad respect ♥

reply to post by SplitInfinity


While I don't eat meat, and have never hunted, I respect and admire those with that skill and capability.
I can't imagine a healthier way to eat meat. it's efficient and (hopefully) as humane as possible.

I agree with your belief that people who eat meat would benefit from that experience. To most people, meat is just something that's wrapped in plastic at the supermarket.

reply to post by RifeRules

I appreciate your understanding. Yes...people are too far removed from nature and what we eat. I have recieved a bit of flack now and then because I hunt and I used to teach survival. I find it rediculous how people will turn into a Mob in the case of a week long power outage as we had on Halloween in the North East.

I was very comfortable thank you but everyone else was Freeking Out! I grow a large organic Garden spring through Autum and even have Brussel Sprouts still on stem in early winter. I also am an expert in knowledge of what is edible in forest, Jungle or Ocean settings. I am particularly good at knowing local Mushrooms but I urge people to be very careful because one wrong pick can kill you.

In the North East a person can Hunt, Trap, eat Cat Tails just at root level, Indian Cucumbers, Staghorn Sumac and use White Pine Bark as Aspirin...as well as many other things. I taught Winter Survival and most people nowdays without training would be dead the first night. The amout of calories you burn in cold weather is massive so it is important to build a fire as well as a shelter and keep your Feet and Hands Dry and Warm.

This is why I was so appauled by watching people freek out who had homes and food but had just lost power. To them it was like the end of the world. To me it was time to have some Brandy and read a few good books!
Split Infinity

reply to post by crankyoldman

The question of "ethical" eating is largely a white, middle something, American privilege. The majority of the world needs to eat

People of the past and people in poorer countries eat much less meat than Americans. Meat is costly. It was unusual to have meat more than once per week before industrial revolution.

www.manicore.com...

The original premise itself is inherently flawed.

As a vegetarian, I do not have an ethical issue at all with eating meat. Eating meat is natural, especially for predators like us.

However, the ways in which we treat animals in the process of acquiring such meat is highly unethical. Not only to we breed animals in inhumane conditions purely for the purpose of slaughter, but they are usually killed in a manner that is both grotesque and, for lack of a better word, 'inhumane'. This is regardless of the cultural or religious influences on the execution method.

This argument is more important in the context of our overall attitude towards animals - that they are 'stupid', 'not on our level' and that they are merely tools for us to use as we so desire. Religious morality echoes this attitude, "God put them there for us to eat and use". They too are sentient beings, they just aren't as intelligent as us.

I have more of an issue with things like animals being skinned alive for unnecessary fur products. Note, again, I have no problem with natives of extreme climates using fur acquired through more humane means. This serves a practical purpose. However, to do so for purely cosmetic reasons is unjustifiable.

Unnecessary animal testing is also vile. The list goes on, but you get my point.

With our intelligence and apex predator status, we know better and have a responsibility to act as such.

The true moral conclusion is: If we must kill animals, it should be entirely necessary and be carried out in the most sensitive way possible.

Originally posted by hottoboggan
Disgustipated comes to mind. THIS IS NECESSARY. THIS IS NECESSARY. LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE FEEDS ON LIIIIIIIFE. As with anything, all things in moderation and you are what you eat. That's all that needs to be said imo.

Sounds like you are trying to justify your behavior by closing off others opinions. Nice!

reply to post by Maslo


Looks like Americans should eat more plants. I think we could do with a lot less meat here.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by crankyoldman

 

The question of "ethical" eating is largely a white, middle something, American privilege. The majority of the world needs to eat

People of the past and people in poorer countries eat much less meat than Americans. Meat is costly. It was unusual to have meat more than once per week before industrial revolution.

www.manicore.com...

edit on 8/5/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

edit on 8/5/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

edit on 8/5/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

thanks for pulling the quote out of context, and not using the full quote, and then using it to support a straw man argument I did not make: I feel just like a candidate.