Auto Insurance is a Fruadalent Enterprise. How do you stop participating?

reply to post by UKWO1Phot


Yea, I only get about 2-3 orders a month, but I usually get $100-$250 after costs, depending on the complexity. I don't think switching cars is the Answer, plus I like having the truck for other reasons, one being it's extremely safe, another being hauling, I help my mom out with yard work and stuff and it's cheaper than having mulch delivered.

reply to post by wishful1gnorance


"Consent of the governed" does not mean that the People have surrendered their inherent political power, and certainly never surrendered their rights. This fantastical notion of a "social contract" has nothing at all to do with the Law of Contracts.

I live in Los Angeles, apparently hiding in plain sight.

Auto insurance SHOULD BE that you pay to cover yourself.
Regardless of whose fault any accident with damages Your insurance company only pays for your (including family & other passengers) damages/injuries. You buy insurance according to how much your think your vehicle, your life and that of your family and friends who might be riding with you are worth.
If you don't have insurance - Tough! You can't suck someone else's life dry.

The Blame Game currently being played is a make-work plan for the lawyers.
Frequently blame is placed on the wrong party. Such as the instance where someone pulls out of a side road not leaving enough room, or stops short and you hit him. In either case you hit him and therefore it is considered your fault. That is total BS. They will say you didn't have your vehicle under control.

Another thing is that currently if someone other than you is driving a vehicle Titled in your name.....and there is an accident, and there is no insusrance, YOU will be one who is paying a judgment. And if you do not pay the judgment the State will take your driver's license. More total BS.

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
reply to post by wishful1gnorance

 

Suggestion. Temporarily forgo any unneeded expense, like the medical bills. Pay them off in time when you have the money, of course, but you have to look out for yourself first. Who else will?

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you're in a "never ending cycle" because you think you have no choice. You think that you and the lifestyle you're in has painted you into a corner that you can't get out of. My advice? Start walking. Don't mind the paint on your feet, that will come off in time. You're only 25, you really shouldn't be so heavily into a lifestyle you call your own to where it's defined you yet. Know what I mean? You've got your whole life ahead of you to define yourself. You're not done yet. Let this one change be part of that whole definition.

These are just suggestions that have helped me, and maybe they'll help you. But for starters, look into the laws and see if your state is one that has mandatory insurance. If they don't, drop it and start driving a lot more carefully. And maybe get a second job if you can.

edit on 4-5-2012 by Taupin Desciple because: (no reason given)

It's not about me though. Certainly If there was a discernible path placed in front of me, I'd walk it. The answers I'm looking for aren't necessarily an individual's answer, but a community wide or state wide separation. If I were to head back to the original OP.

"So that's the point, from their points of view and mine, where do you start? I intend for this thread to be an assortment of ideas on how to realistically stop participating in the system. And how far do you not want to participate?"

I'm not taking this harshly, and it's not about me. I ca definitely say I've walked the road less traveled on too many occasions, so I don't need to have my hand held or patted on the head, or be alleviated of all burdens. I'm not asking or an easy simple solution. I'm sure it will be complex and concern more people than just myself. Where do we as a society start to free ourselves from participation with a flawed and corrupt system. What is step 1?

reply to post by wishful1gnorance


Keep going guys, it's time for me to go be a spoiled rotten youngin' who don't kno' nuttin about no hardships at work in a kitchen for the next 8 hours.

Iv got a similar solution, it works perfect.

Originally posted by benrl
Most states allow you to put a cash bond on file to the DMV.

All insurance means is that you are Financially capable of paying for any damages YOU cause with your motor vehicle.

Put a cash bond down, I believe in my state the amount is 10K

and you never need to buy insurance.

Driving is a PRIVILEGE not a right, You are driving on roads collectively paid for by ALL our taxes, as a requirement you need to be able to pay the damages you may cause to say a driver like ME...

Frankly I think the Germans have it right when it comes to Licenses.

If you can't afford to be a responsible driver, than guess what, you shouldn't be driving.

edit on 4-5-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)

Your cash bond does not cover you if someone sues you and your estate. Coverage for that itself is one of the biggest reasons that your auto insurance is so high.

I think the part of this post that interests me the most is getting off the grid and how? I've been trying to determine where to start with that as well. For instance, I'd love to close all my bank accounts but its almost impossible. You need an account to cash your check or you pay seriously high fees to get it cashed. Its easy to pay your bills online so you don't have to run around taking your payments here and there individually and paying cash. Also I can't really take my payment to California to pay my car payment when I live in Ohio. See? The system is set up so if you are on the grid and working and paying taxes you have to use the bankers and they are making money on your money. So where does one start in that situation? Further, I'd love to not have a car payment but I have to work to pay my bills. I'd love to not have bills but I have to live in under a roof. I'd love to not pay rent but I have to eat. I would like to keep my internet so I have to work. Its a vicious circle of needs and wants.

I'd love to drop everything and go live in the woods but is that really a possibility? Not without buying the land, not without saving the money for that land... WHERE TO BEGIN?

Not paying insurance where I am is not possible. Its a law and if you get caught you will be in court and your license will be suspended and fines etc... this is larger than just not paying insurance. HOW DO YOU GET OFF THE GRID?

reply to post by wishful1gnorance


Ive been saying this for years but if the governments are going to require drivers to have auto insurance than they should be the ones selling it. think about that for a second. If no matter what we do, we have to have insurance then why not let the government be the ones profiting from it. Right now we are all paying for insurance and our standard taxes. If they generate revenue from insurance, then theoretically our taxes should decrease.

This would be a win win. For the citizens and governments. How honestly cares about the big business's profits? the little people would still have jobs- but their new jobs would come with government perks...like health insurance, etc. Everybody knows governemnt jobs are the best jobs.

I just had to reply to this thread because I'm a couple years down the road from the thought processes you're having now OP.

First off, I think your question about how we can all just 'quit the system' is the important part and sorry if the insurance question is a little distracting, but here's my take on it:

I have NEVER had car insurance... I'm 26 and have been driving since I was 19. I've never had a single moving violation, ie no accidents, no speeding or infraction tickets. I have had seat belt tickets and I HAVE been ticketed for not having insurance, but here's the thing; in my state if you get caught without insurance, it's a $500 ticket. You may SHOW UP TO COURT WITH INSURANCE and have your fine reduced significantly (50-80%). As long as you dont show up to court every year with(out) insurance they'll never crack down on you. I've probably paid about $1000 total in insurance and fines for the last 7 years or whatever.

And if I screwed up and broke someone's car/neck I would probably file bankruptcy.... cause I don't care... and I mostly live outside the system already anyway....

Which was your main question I think: How to leave the rat race.
My whole life I've been trying to drop out and this is what I've learned. You can do anything the hard way, but like JPZ says it's an uphill battle. Definitely easier to just tow the line... Anyway this is getting ranty so here's some quick tips:

- Ditch your bank account. Checks can be cashed at their Bank of Origin almost always. Checks larger than $1000 can be tricky however. As painful as it may be, walmart cashes checks for a very reasonable fee... Personal checks always cost more to cash than payroll checks. Also some of the check-marts aren't THAT horrible if they know you and you can get a check cashed for a couple bucks.
- Use prepaid visas for things like online bill pay. Also if you're a member at one of those ghetto check cashing places (See above) money orders are an option there too.

- Quit your job. It's time to start earning your way in life the hard, old-fashioned way. It's time to start doing A LOT of favors for your friends, family, neighbors, and community. Security can be earned by knowing people owe you a favor and have your back. Sometimes you're going to get paid in food, tools, rent, sundries, whatever. The most important part is that you're NOT PAYING TAXES, and ideally not even using much cash. Get jobs under-the-table. It actually sounds like you have a really good jump on this part and I would personally suggest that you quit your day-job and up your game a little bit in that big ol pile of Misc. you had going on in your OP.

-Spend your money locally. We've all heard this one and it's kinda 'in-vogue' or whatever lately anyway. Try to give your cash to the farmer's market, to your neighbor at the local swap-meet, etc... We all kinda get this one, it's the quit shopping at big box stores thing right?

Anyway moral of the story: Don't be afraid of anything... you can and will survive any way you have to, and some things you don't need as badly as you think you do.

ETA: ^^^^ seriously just do something drastic... if you don't have a wife and kids or family that really needs you to be on your A-game then take a chance. Live a different life. It's not ridiculous to think you can actually skip out into the woods for bearded year or two... Some of the big-shot survival gurus started out doing JUST THAT. Maybe there's a farmer in your county who has an extra acre in the back you can squat a trailer on in exchange for some weekly labor... Get creative and just remember to include the power of people helping people.

You should check out this thread it is very useful and very informative.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks JRedBeard, that's the type of discussion I wanted to focus on.

Honestly as much as I'd like to go live in the woods and find my own way out there, but like others said, it'd be hard if you don't own the land, I guess, maybe not. It'd be interesting but I'm not really trying to turn out to be a Star Child Hippie. Your tips are also solely useful for the individual, I'd really be interested to see what we could turn up on a much larger scale. Addressing the systems from the ground up. I wonder how many people would sign onto participate with an alternative governing system similar but different. I am not saying revert to commun/social -ism, that is the wrong direction.

I'd be interested to hear what more people had to say about setting up a fully functional system that works for the people in nearly every aspect, and I"m sure some bureaucracy will still be involved. And I think a small government may work better, but that's only if we can all get on the same page. More importantly how do you address the big issues: capital punishment, abortion, civil rights, etc. And still make everyone happy. A structured outline may be the best place to start. hmmm... guess I know what I'll be concocting for the next few days.

Thanks 1plusXisto7billion, that's a really good Idea, even though it goes against the preferably smaller government.

Romanian, like the idea, but for the time being, my area is very unfriendly to bikers of all walks, except for harleys.

JimCessna very interesting link, I really like the in depth explanation of the process of removing yourself from tyranny. I'd be interested to see if another country would or a single state would be willing to aid a portion of the nation attempting to secede

JPZ thanks again for your well-informed perspective...

I guess it looks like the thread is about dead, probably won't see this hitting any more high notes from ardent observers. Until next time.

Originally posted by benrl
Most states allow you to put a cash bond on file to the DMV.

All insurance means is that you are Financially capable of paying for any damages YOU cause with your motor vehicle.

Put a cash bond down, I believe in my state the amount is 10K

and you never need to buy insurance.

Driving is a PRIVILEGE not a right, You are driving on roads collectively paid for by ALL our taxes, as a requirement you need to be able to pay the damages you may cause to say a driver like ME...

Frankly I think the Germans have it right when it comes to Licenses.

If you can't afford to be a responsible driver, than guess what, you shouldn't be driving.

edit on 4-5-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)

Read these links. Driving IS a privilege..BUT...Traveling is a natural and inherent RIGHT. Supreme Court has so stated.
www.articlesbase.com...

privateaudio.homestead.com...

freedom-school.com...

freedom-school.com...

“Personal liberty largely consists of the Right of locomotion --to go where and when one pleases-- only so far restrained as the Rights of others may make it necessary for the welfare of all other citizens.The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horse drawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which maybe permitted or prohibited at will, but the common Right which he has under his Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Under this Constitutional guarantee one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another's Rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct.” [Emphasis added] II Am. Jur.(1st) Constitutional Law, Sect. 329. p.ll35.

“The use of the highways for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common and fundamental Right of which the public and the individual cannot be rightfully deprived.’ [Emphasis added] Chicago Motor Coach vs. Chicago, 169 N. E. 22 (1929); Ligare vs. Chicago, 28 N. E. 934 (1891); Boon vs. Clark, 214 S. W. 607 (1919); 25 Am. Jur. (1st) Highways Sect. 163.

freedom-school.com...

I could post thousands of court cases here and other documents, but who will believe it? Read the material and decide for yourself. Remember that MAN existed long before government. Government was created by the Elite to manage commerce only. But then the politicians could not control us if we are not engaged in "their" society, so they have duped us by way of birth certificate and here we are, commodities of the government...UNTIL... you rebut their presumption.

DRIVING is a government granted privilege because it denotes an act of commerce.
TRAVELING is a natural and inherent RIGHT and does not owe it's existence to ANY government agency. But again, YOU must set the record straight. YOU must rebut their presumption and remove the liability and place it on the state. THEY are the criminals, they OWE us, the people. If you get into an accident, the state must take care of it from YOUR trust account, after all, they created you right? Your bond in the treasury is worth millions of dollars, use the tust account and it pays for everything.. Public Policy..HJR-192 of June 5th 1933. Need I say more?

This is my 2 cents.

Few years ago, I drove a Dodge Neon. It was...well, it was a Dodge Neon. I'd had no accidents. In my entire driving life, I have no points on my record, only 3 tickets total, all less than 10mph over limit, etc etc. Well one night, I was driving in the hickory doo dah back roads and I hit Bambi. Bambi ruined my Neon, got antler scratches, blood, all kinds of juicy stuff all over it....totalled my car completely. A DEER! Obviously this wasn't my fault, and the insurance (at one point I had told them exactly how I felt about paying for insurance, by the way) paid for my rental car, my estimate through a shop of MY choice, and in the end since it was totalled...they bought me another car. That floopydoo Neon was my transportation, like it or not, and without it I had no job. Thanks to insurance, which I didn't WANT or feel I NEEDED, I was not without transportation and not without a job, which at that point would have really devastated me financially, as I had just started out on my own and was lucky to even HAVE such a decent-paying job.

Anyway, just my take on it....whether you have a perfect record or not, you'd want it for THESE types of situations. Maybe you don't live somewhere that deer jump out? There's still something to be said about something UNEXPECTED....you never expect it to happen!

Insurance isn't a scam. It's a system designed to minimize the risk of everyday life. Most auto insurance companies aren't even making money on the premium you pay them, they just take the actual amount they pay out every year and divide it up among their customers. They have amazing statistical ways of figuring out who is a better or worse risk, and they assess each customer in various ways and charge them accordingly.

If you can't afford auto insurance, then really what you are saying is that you can't afford to drive. That really stinks for you. I have been poor before, and it is a terrible predicament, but short of getting off the grid, the only fix I know is to use alternate transportation or find a way to make more money.

Really the scenarios people are presenting here are the tip of the iceberg, as far as the horrible things that can happen without auto insurance. If you think your liability premiums are high now, just wait until your license gets suspended for getting caught driving without insurance. That's if you're lucky. Do you know getting caught driving without insurance can make it harder for you to get a job?

I've heard stories of people accidentally driving into a person's house. How much damage do you think that would cause? One time I read a story about a woman who was waiting in her car for a train to pass on a foggy day. Someone who was uninsured rammed into the back of her car, pushing her car into the train. It dragged her car down the track for miles. She survived, but went deeply into debt from the medical bills. The person responsible was poor, which is why they didn't have insurance at all. Legally, one can sometimes get a lien on the person who was at fault. Even if you don't have any money, you can loose anything you might earn or inherit in the future. That's why I carry high liability limits and good uninsured motorist coverage.

You may not have had an accident yet, but people don't have them on purpose. People don't wake up in the morning and say, "Oh, I think I'll get into and accident today." It just happens.

I'm kind of amazed that as far as I can tell from skimming this thread (I tried to read it in total, but my head couldn't withstand the crazy) I am the first person to explain how insurance works. Let me ask you this, if someone hits you with their car, and you have to go to the hospital and get hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical care, would you want them to have some insurance? Or would you like to become bankrupt and in debt for simply crossing the road at the wrong time?

Think about someone other than yourself, and take responsibility for your actions. The credit system and the cost of medical care are both sort of scams, yes. But car insurance is a service that society needs.

reply to post by AmethystSD


Read my post. Insurance is a scam. Sorry but if people had no insurance, just think how cautious they would be then, and how responsible. KNOWING that they could lose everything. THAT is responsibility. Not being disrespectful, but I have driven without insurance as a young man for years, no accidents, and not because I was lucky, because I paid attention and was careful. Stupid should hurt and badly.

A surety bond at the local credit union, it would cover health, car, home and everything else. BUT the government needed a bed buddy and the insurance company was born, it IS a scam. Sad but true. Wish I could explain the whole of the scenerio so everyone would understand it but don't have the time.

reply to post by AmethystSD


What utter nonsense! Consider this:

What kind of profit do auto insurance companies get? A recent study performed by the Christensen Law firm revealed that the most profitable auto insurance company in the United States in 2010 was State Farm Insurance, pulling in $1.8 billion dollars. There were several others that weren’t far behind. Farmers Insurance came in at $1.686 billion and liberty mutual at $1.678 billion. Auto insurance profits total in the hundreds of millions to low billions every year. According the American Association for Justice profits for the auto insurance industry as a whole total close to $3 trillion annually.

Of course, that is a study done by a law firm, and as the old joke goes; "how do you tell when a lawyer is lying? His lips are moving", so don't consider that, and instead consider this:

The accepted measure for profitability by the Insurance Industry is after tax Return On Equity (ROE). According to the Insurance Industry and the New Brunswick Insurance Board, a reasonable rate of profit is achieved by return on equity of approximately 10%. Since the implementation of the $2500 cap, the Insurance Industry has experienced unprecedented level of profits. As was predicted by then MLA Bernard Richard (now New Brunswick's Ombudsman) profits for the Insurance Industry have been excessive with, after tax, return on equity of anywhere from double to quadruple what is considered reasonable.

That same report claims that in 1996 the insurance industry had a $25 million profit with a 11.3% return on equity. By 2006 that profit had jumped to $87 million with a 24.5% return on equity.

Now, consider this:

Allstate released its first-quarter financial statement Wednesday, which showed that the nation’s second-largest auto insurer saw rising profits when compared with both the previous quarter and the first quarter of 2011. According to the earnings data, Allstate’s profits are up about 46 percent from the same period last year, jumping from $524 million up to $766 million.

Or, consider this:

Liberty Mutual released its first-quarter 2012 profits on Thursday, showing that the insurer posted a marked improvement from both last year and the year before. The company had $8.88 billion in revenues for the first quarter of 2012, with profits coming in at $459 million.

Oh these poor, poor, pitiful insurance companies with their profits in the hundreds of millions. Sucks to be a poor, poor, pitiful insurance company, no?

Originally posted by wishful1gnorance
Auto-Insurance seems like it should be the first to go, especially since I've used the cheapest company in town for nearly a decade to insure my vehicles and never been in an accident, as the guys explored in the other thread, I've already payed the necessary amount to cover any accidents I've caused.

[I made bold the parts that interested me in your comment] Reading through this thread I've seen several questionable comments you've made. I don't believe that you are the upstanding citizen you claim to be, and the evidence of this is clear that you simply want to find a way to make it easy and convenient to be (& act) irresponsibly.

We all have to follow the same laws that you do, and by not paying insurance you do realize that someone will pay for your irresponsibility if an accident were to occur. I don't think you care about that though.. as long as it's saving you from paying anything.

Essentially you are asking the members here to help you find a way out of paying because you feel that the members here are intelligent enough to be able to give you the answers that you can't come up with yourself.

Originally posted by Juggernog
Get a horse and buggy, works for the Amish

Even in my state (Colorado) they require the Amish to register their buggy's. NO JOKE.

If the buggy will be taken on public roads they must pay for a have tags for the buggy...

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by AmethystSD

 

Or, consider this:

Liberty Mutual released its first-quarter 2012 profits on Thursday, showing that the insurer posted a marked improvement from both last year and the year before. The company had $8.88 billion in revenues for the first quarter of 2012, with profits coming in at $459 million.

Oh these poor, poor, pitiful insurance companies with their profits in the hundreds of millions. Sucks to be a poor, poor, pitiful insurance company, no?

The insurance company existing (how can you BE an insurance company??) is great for itself (I understand your sarcasm)

As far as being an employee for one ( I am). It's not all that great.

From my observations from being in the industry over the last 15 months it just seems as if its a big "swapping" game.

This year company A is the cheapest, so you have agents affiliated or who can sell company A insurance going out to their clients and new prospects saying, "Look! I can save you $300 bucks a year if you switch to this!"

GREAT!

You just made yourself $15 a month, saved the client $300. Everybody is happy. The insurance company has a new revenue stream.... until... a year or 2 later, they are no longer the cheapest. Perhaps something "happened" in the industry and they had to raise rates, now company B has the best rates. Well that's GREAT for agents affiliated and who can sell for company B.... rinse repeat, you get the idea.

Now the agents who were getting those $15 trails from their sales are starting to see their income drop because this other company is taking their clients away.

The winner in this big game are the insurance companies themselves and the directors getting the bonuses.

Also just wanted to point out, 459 million in profits on 8.88 billion in revenue is only 5.16% profit. Which is just on par with what a retail store would make, maybe slightly more.


Edit to add....

If you were shooting for $1000 a week income, that means you would have to have revenues of $1,007,752 in a year ($19,380 a week), to be able to pay yourself $52,000 for that year after all expenses and taxes are paid. (5.16% profits from revenue) Just to throw in some perspective there.