NDEs: Heaven and Hell

Well, for the first time ever, my response didn't fit in one post. That means I have been typing entirely too long and I need to get off this computer.


Anyway, like I was saying, I don't think that our soul will "look" exactly like our body does at the time of our death.

When people die with only one arm, I do not think that is how they will be represented on the other side. No one-legged man races in the next realm. You get my point.


Also like I said, bear in mind that just because our soul has left the body, does not mean that we have immediately crossed into eternity and are in the presence of the divine. Quite the contrary. We are still in a created realm-- the aerial realm-- and that is only one step away from here, but an incalculable distance from eternity.

Now, whether we are whisked away by our guardian angels through the vast chasm that separates the aerial realm (and all realms subordinate) from eternity in the highest heaven, or whether we must mediate through those who inhabit the aerial realm, I do not know, nor do I speculate to know.


However I do know who rules the aerial realm, thus at the time of my death I will "test all spirits to see whether they are from God", lest I set myself up for delusion.


Lastly, it has only been a few days since I finished a book by Father Seraphim Rose entitled, "The Soul After Death." It is a book dealing with the afterlife, written from the perspective of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which considers itself closest to the original church started by the Apostles. I do not personally subscribe to the Eastern Orthodox denomination, but I appreciate it for what it is and what they believe they are standing for. Take from the book what you will, keeping in mind the perspective.


I apologize in advance for any typos, as I do not have time at the moment to proof my long-winded response.

Originally posted by stupid girl
I believe He is fully capable of making sure His truth reaches each and every soul He already knew/knows would recognize the Truth and accept it.
Besides, why address and include information that we couldn't possibly comprehend?

The problem is that if he is real, he DID allow changes to be made. There are many different versions of the bible. Which one is the right one? The protestant bible has 66 book, the Catholic bible has 73 books and the Ethiopian Orthodox bible has over 80 books. The JW bible has different verses in their bibles than those other three. Some bibles have verses not included in others, and some have verses removed. If this god has allowed these things to happen, how do you know it wasn't allowed since the very beginning?

Originally posted by stupid girl
Now, as far as NDE's are concerned, I think it is paramount that you remain acutely aware that the process of the soul disconnecting from the body STILL HAPPENS IN A CREATED REALM.
Meaning? When the soul leaves the body, it is still within the confines, limits and scope of creation.
More specifically, the aerial realm. New Age gurus call it the astral plane. Jesus calls it a vast chasm or great gulf which has been placed between terra firma and coeli excelsis. (see Luke 16:26)

But many of these people are in heaven or hell? Are they also still in the created realm at the same time? I don't understand what you mean.

Originally posted by stupid girl
I speculate that most NDE's are a combination of the medical science of our dying brain, our personal expectations and most importantly, our personal perception.

I agree with that.

Originally posted by stupid girl
Personally, I want to look like I did in a bikini in Cabo San Lucas in 1999. I choose that as my subconcious perception of myself. Kidding. Sort of.

Post a pic and let us see if we think that would be good.

Originally posted by stupid girl
Also like I said, bear in mind that just because our soul has left the body, does not mean that we have immediately crossed into eternity and are in the presence of the divine. Quite the contrary. We are still in a created realm-- the aerial realm-- and that is only one step away from here, but an incalculable distance from eternity.

But again, people have claimed to have been in heaven and hell.

Originally posted by stupid girl
However I do know who rules the aerial realm, thus at the time of my death I will "test all spirits to see whether they are from God", lest I set myself up for delusion.

After we die, we have more tests? What if you get deluded, what happens then? Might you accidentally go to hell?

Originally posted by stupid girl
I apologize in advance for any typos, as I do not have time at the moment to proof my long-winded response.

No problem, thanks for you input. Also, don't forget to post the bikini pic.

reply to post by Hydroman


I can't respond to your post until later. I gotta cook supper & do the nightly duties with my children.

But here is a picture of me in 1999:

Originally posted by stupid girl
I can't respond to your post until later. I gotta cook supper & do the nightly duties with my children.

But here is a picture of me in 1999:

OMG, I would tear that thing up!

reply to post by Hydroman


Kidding.

This is really me, in Cabo San Lucas in 1999:



I would never post a picture of myself in a bathing suit, so this is as close to showing ATS what I look like as it gets.

Originally posted by stupid girl

Kidding.

This is really me, in Cabo San Lucas in 1999:

I would never post a picture of myself in a bathing suit, so this is as close to showing ATS what I look like as it gets.

The first one is hotter.

reply to post by Hydroman


I thought so too, but I didn't want you to have false images of such hotness, including the lovely tramp-stamp off center from the booty crack, floating around in your mind.

Originally posted by stupid girl
I thought so too, but I didn't want you to have false images of such hotness, including the lovely tramp-stamp off center from the booty crack, floating around in your mind.

Too late.

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by Hydroman

 

I've asked that same question plenty of times,

The best answer I can come up with is this:

This is all either a test or a game in Gods mind, or some kind of simulation......

God has a sense of humor too, I was reading on here this morning about someone who had a miracle happen to them while praying on the toilet, and I've also had a miracle occur while praying on the toilet, God definitely is a funny "guy", haha.

And what excatly was this guy "praying" for on the toilet? To finally be able to take a crap? I'm sure if he prays enough, he's putting a lot of work and postive thoughts into it which is probably why it finally came out.

All jokes aside,

When a person dies, part of the brain must take time to shut itself down after all other parts of the body fails. How do you knwo these NDE people are experiacing are real and not just a dream? Almost everyone believe in the possibility of Heaven or Hell because of how wildly thrown around it is. So who knows, maybe just right before someone "dies" they dream of the place where they believe they are going. Everyone has their own judgement on themselves evaluating whether or not they belong in heaven or hell. So they die, and and sees whatever it is they want to project. All these people that they talk about seeing in heaven are usually their closest relitives, because that's WHO they want to see.

As for the boy who "died", seeing his sister who was never even born yet, it's quite possible that he imagined how she would look if she was his age which is probably why he saw her.

Like dreams if you think of something long enough before you actually go to sleep, you can actually dream about it as well.

Now I'm being skeptic about it, but believe me the idea of Heaven and Hell being real is quite entertaining to me. I'm an agnostic, and part of me believes in God and the other part of me is just a very skeptical person.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by Iason321

S&F for thread,

and about the kids growing up in heaven - there are different levels of heaven. Spirits can be raised and matured in heaven just as they are on earth. The way I understand Heaven is that it's a physical realm just like ours - but much more vibrant, more "real". This "reality" we experience is more like a dream than reality.....

If spirits can be raised and matured in heaven like on earth, why doesn't this god just let us be born in heaven and live with him immediately, especially if that's what he wants anyways? Then, if we decide we don't want to be there, like Lucifer did, he can let us leave, like he did with Lucifer.

Heck, if that boy's sister was miscarried and got to go to heaven and be raised there, that seems to be the way to go! Now I wish I was miscarried. I mean, if god allows that to happen, why wouldn't he allow all of us to be born there? It's the same thing. She wasn't born on earth, she was born in heaven...

edit on 3-5-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

I believe we are born in heaven first then God shows us that he has a plan for us and shows us what we will experience on earth then gives us the choice to go or stay maybe thats why we have deja-vu but i guess we'll never know till we get there

Originally posted by rasta420
I believe we are born in heaven first then God shows us that he has a plan for us and shows us what we will experience on earth then gives us the choice to go or stay maybe thats why we have deja-vu but i guess we'll never know till we get there

We would have to be one crazy son of a gun to be born in heaven, then decide to come here and risk being burned forever in hell...which according to the bible is where most people are going.

Originally posted by TheProphetMark
As for the boy who "died", seeing his sister who was never even born yet, it's quite possible that he imagined how she would look if she was his age which is probably why he saw her.

The problem with this is that the boy was 3 when he went to heaven and supposedly didn't know about the miscarriage.

His dad is a pastor, so I wonder if the little boy over heard his dad talk about seeing his daughter in heaven someday. Being a pastor, I'm sure the little boy heard his father talk about heaven quite a bit and may have gotten his ideas from him...who knows? Or maybe he really did go to a heavenly place.

It's just strange to me that some people go to heaven..even those who weren't saved, some go to hell, and some go to neither place but just float around. It doesn't seem consistent with Christian teachings.

One video I saw was of a man who had an NDE and went to "hell". What he saw was many people coming after him and they wanted to tear him from limb to limb. He said they all wanted to cause him pain. That's what he saw as hell. I'm thinking, "If they want to cause pain, why are they just going after him? Why don't they tear each other from limb to limb too?"

I've also heard a christian man speak about a time where Jesus took him from his body and put him in hell just to experience it. It's called 23 minutes in hell. So, Jesus took him out of his body, but when he was in hell, he still had a body that could feel pain, that could breathe the bad air, etc. Where did that body come from? He said that demons would come into his prison cell, torture him and tear his body apart. He also said he saw demons throwing people into the lake of fire. And again, I'm thinking, "Hmmmm, demons can walk in and out of prison cells? Must not be such a secure place if they can do that. Next, they are torturing him? I thought hell was created to torture and punish the demons first and foremost, not for them to torture humans....?" But, it looks like the demons get to torture the humans instead of being tortured themselves. It's not consistent with christian teachings, but christians eat that crap up.

So, an answer was given that in Heaven, people there appear to you in a way that makes you comfortable, or in a way that you will recognize them because their body is actually on earth in a grave. How do you account for those in hell who have bodies? Their physical bodies are also on earth in the grave, why do they manifest themselves in bodies while they burn, or as they're tortured, or whatever. Why do they feel pain, as they are not in a physical body? Can energy feel pain? Some who have gone to hell have seen people they recognize. Why is that? Why would someone in hell concentrate enough to manifest a body that could be recognized by others?

Originally posted by Hydroman
The problem is that if he is real, he DID allow changes to be made. There are many different versions of the bible. Which one is the right one? The protestant bible has 66 book, the Catholic bible has 73 books and the Ethiopian Orthodox bible has over 80 books. The JW bible has different verses in their bibles than those other three. Some bibles have verses not included in others, and some have verses removed. If this god has allowed these things to happen, how do you know it wasn't allowed since the very beginning?

The books of the Old Testament we have today are the same version that Jesus had access to.
The books that are discrepant among denominational "versions" of the Bible are peripheral and extraneous.
Well, except for The Book of Enoch, that one really clears up a lot of descriptive gaps in early Genesis. However, it is still peripheral and it's absence does not affect the basic message that God is trying to get accross to us.
Jehova's Witness is a cult. I do not acknowledge this group as a denomination of Christianity.

I believe that God will lead us to His Truths if we seek Him with our whole heart. I don't perceive God as "allowing" anything other than mankind to express free will. Most of what happens in this world happens because a human being made a choice. However, no matter what a cluster our choice may cause and who it affects, God is capable of using our choices for His glory. We already know how the story ends.
Mankind may have taken it upon himself to haggle over semantics when putting together the Bible, but the overall message is the same. Like I said, I believe that God is capable of making sure the important information makes its way to those who are looking for Him.

I am aware that there are certain Bible translations that omit specific verses which are key tenets of Christianity. However, these particlular versions are the more recent which attempt to paraphrase and/or translate an archaic document into contemporary urban english.
The best and most true-to-form translations of the Bible, in my opinion and experience, are the Amplified Version and the Orthodox Study Bible. I also possess the New International Version, New Living Translation, King James, American Standard Version and a few others I can't remember right off hand. I can honestly say that I do not see any discrepancies in all these versions that affect the overall revelation of God to mankind.

But many of these people are in heaven or hell? Are they also still in the created realm at the same time? I don't understand what you mean.

Are they really? I don't think they really know what they are experiencing, but whatever it is, some automatically assume it must be heaven because that's where you go when you die, right? Some may be experiencing what they imagine hell to be, because that's where they thought they'd go, right? Although heaven and hell are within the confines of creation, I do not believe we go there instantaneously upon the moment of death. There is no biblical support of that idea. My main point was to address the issue of the aerial realm being the likely place an NDE occurs. Physics has already proven the plurality of dimensions that exist alongside our own, but we are simply incapable of perceiving them. Most of us, anyway. Therefore, the aerial realm would be the vastness of what we perceive as space. Once we die, the aerial realm is what we may perceive as the vast chasm, as referred to by Jesus, or astral plane, as referred to by New Agers.
I do not think it is a coincidence that angels and the like are referred to as stars in the heavens.
I do not think it is a coincidence that ancient civilizations worshipped celestial bodies and organized their entire existence around the movements thereof.
I do not think it is a coincidence that the Apostle Paul tells us, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

I will link you to a synopsis of the Orthodox doctrine about the state of the soul after death. However, read it with discernment and the understanding that this is speculative doctrine based on conjecture. To my knowledge, most of the details have no specific biblical references to back them up. And although I do not necessarily adhere to this doctrine one way or the other, I found it particularly interesting when considering some of the very same questions you address in your OP.
Aerial Toll Houses

Originally posted by stupid girl
The books of the Old Testament we have today are the same version that Jesus had access to.

How do you know this? We don't have any original writings, at all. How do we know that nothing was changed from the very beginning. First, there was no written language. Everything was passed down orally for a couple thousand years. How do you know that stories weren't embellished or added to, to make their god look all-powerful? How do you know that errors weren't made every time these writings were copied? There's no way of us knowing these things. But, what we do know is that in our present time, these writings have been changed, verses added and removed, entire books added and removed. The biblical god, if he is real, has allowed these things to happen recently. If he did that, it means that he would have allowed it since the beginning as well, since he doesn't change.

Originally posted by stupid girl
Mankind may have taken it upon himself to haggle over semantics when putting together the Bible, but the overall message is the same.

How do you know this?

Originally posted by stupid girl
Like I said, I believe that God is capable of making sure the important information makes its way to those who are looking for Him.

If that is the case, why are there so many denominations, all with people who love and seek god, that have different ideas of salvation?

Originally posted by stupid girl
Are they really? I don't think they really know what they are experiencing, but whatever it is, some automatically assume it must be heaven because that's where you go when you die, right?

That plus they see Jesus and loved ones there.

Originally posted by stupid girl
Some may be experiencing what they imagine hell to be, because that's where they thought they'd go, right?

I agree.

Originally posted by stupid girl
Although heaven and hell are within the confines of creation, I do not believe we go there instantaneously upon the moment of death. There is no biblical support of that idea.

Paul said that to be absent from the body was to be present with the lord.

reply to post by Hydroman


The Bible does have some simple answers. I remember it says in the Bible that God knew us before we were placed in our mothers womb Jeremiah 1:5. The soul had a form before. What shape it takes and why, I'm not sure.

The Bible says God is light, and light is energy. I know because A = B does not always mean B = A. It could. God could be energy, and our soul is made from the same light and energy. Just a theory though.

God loves children. Matt 18:3 "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." I see children in abundance in heaven. It is hard for adults to have the faith and innocence as a child. Most of us grow up and gain a large amount of skepticism, doubt, and uncertainty.

I think the spiritual bodies will be like when Jesus rose from the dead. He did not need to eat or sleep. He could disappear and reappear without people noticing. There was one time he had to tell the disciples who he was even after he walked with him a little while. He could enter into places without having to use the door. He ascended or went straight up into heaven in front of others. Also there is the transfiguration where Jesus and Matthew were up in the mountain, and two others appeared and disappear before Matthew could finish asking if he should make a meal for all of them.

The Bible doesn't spell it out, but gives us clues.

Take or leave it as you will.

I admit the hell part is tough. How can he let so many go there? If one wants to believe in the Bible, they have to understand that sin can not be in the presence of God. I guess you can think of it as the curse of sin on us. There is nothing we can do to get rid of it. In the OT they sacrificed an animal to use as a sin covering. It never fully took the sin away. That is why Jesus came down, to be the final sacrifice. To take away the sin forever. All we need to do is accept it.

What the original sin was, I'm not sure. I don't believe it was an actual fruit. I do know there were two trees in the middle of the garden, and one was the tree of life. Jesus is called the tree of life. The other was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If Jesus was the tree of life, who was the other tree. Could the trees be both metaphorical and physical? Was the sin disobedience to God, following someone other than God, or what? I have read some wild claims. The thing remains is that there was sin, and we were corrupted. We could not uncorrupt ourselves.

Maybe the sin is something we didn't or couldn't really comprehend. What ever it was Jesus was able to undo. He got rid of the corruption that keeps us separated from God.

Those who don't receive the gift from Jesus keeps the corruption/sin that can not go before God. The Bible says God is a jealous God. As a parent if someone has a problem with my child, they have no chance of befriending me. Jesus is God also. Flipping the finger at Jesus is just as bad as flipping the finger at God.

Sometimes I wonder why couldn't God have created another place for the sinners besides the lake of fire? That was for the angels that rebelled against him. There are so many unanswered questions. Many I believe won't be answered until we meet God.

Yet, I still believe. Why? because I do. I know that isn't an answer, and any I could give you really wouldn't be one. All I know is things seem to change when I pray, others pray for me, and I focus on Jesus. Otherwise I should be dead twice, depressed, still living in a hell hole on earth with a husband who hated me, divorced, and my kids taken away. Yet, here I am living in a decent place, my husband loves me, we never divorced, on our 14th year of marriage, my kids are doing well, my oldest has high honors, and I'm not fighting depression as I once was.

Yes, even us Christians have questions, and don't fully comprehend God. Most of us do question: God, why? I haven't met a Christian who hasn't. Yet, we keep the faith. Somehow it gets buried deep in our hearts.

I'm not sure why I wrote all of that. As I said take it or leave it as you will.

Originally posted by Hydroman
Without a body, what is receiving these telepathic communications? What is giving these telepathic communications? Why are they telepathic and not audible?

The mind/consciousness is energy. The communication between the neurons of your brain, is just there to keep the energy in your brain so you won't go crazy while you are alive. These telepathic communications can indeed be audible, just like you can hear sounds in your mind without your actual ears.

Originally posted by Hydroman
If the boy is outside of his body, would he still think like a boy? He's not using his young boy brain to think and reason with, if he's out of his body. Once out of the body, why aren't we super geniuses since we aren't being restricted by our fleshly brains?

Yes, he would still be a boy until he connects with the fullness of who he truly is. The part of himself that remembers other life times and all of the information that he gathered...

Originally posted by Hydroman
How?

There is no "how" that is just the nature of energy. By its very definition energy are pockets of waveforms of INFORMATION. In this planet it can be chemic, electric, etc. Pure energy is potential - all capableness.

Originally posted by Hydroman
What does comfort have to do with anything when you're not in your body?

A lot, since the mind holds emotions and thoughts...

The mind is in your physical body right now, the neurons are holding the energy of your mind (thought/emotion) but when you die, the neurons die and the energy no longer has to be held there. It is no longer the type of energy you had in the brain (bio-chemic) but it IS potential energy which is even better and all capable.

Every thought that humans (or other life forms) have ever thought exist as potential. All abstractions which don't exist in reality, they are still ENERGY of thought and they exist in the field of potential.

reply to post by Hydroman


I've been reading these for years and though I haven't had a NDE, from reading thousands I will give you my best guesses from what people report.

Most people report that they look the same, as they did in this dimension. Many do report that there body seems solid, but more often than not they report being translucent. Probably 75% of the ones who report seeing Jesus can never make out what he looks like because the light coming from him hides his image. I would say about 20% report not being able to see their body at all - they have their faculties about them in every aspect and it even feels like they still have arms and legs but report not feeling them if they try to actually touch them.

Why some people see their body and some don't is a good question. No two peoples experience is the same. Some people have reported after seperation from the body (the hovering stage) they suddenly find themself in a wonderful garden or on a beautiful path and a handful of these are made to have an understanding that they are seeing familar surroundings so their transition is a bit easier on them. Apparently, on the other side your immediate needs are already known and then it's worked out accordingly.

To answer your questions that stem from the 'Heaven is for Real' book - Most people who see their loved ones who have already passed over see them in their prime. Aunt Martha lost her left foot at the age of 60 from diabetes and died shortly thereafter. Now, she not only has her foot back but she now looks to be about 30 years old. Most people report that everyone on the other side is definately in their prime! Late 20's to early 30's.

There are many reports of children of different ages on the other side. People report these children are being well taken care of. The testimony I've read imples that they do grow and age, albeit more slowly. I've read probably ten different accounts where people report Jesus sitting under a tree reading to a group of about ten children. The children are learning, loved and can't wait to be reuninted with their families.

Children who have NDE's often report being greeted by a deceased family pet and again this probably goes to their immediate need to see something familar, so they are not as frightened.

I just want to say, that most every story I have read of someone going to hell - when they realize the predicament they have found themself in, when they call on Jesus he shows up. Some people report getting a tour of hell. A few people report that those being tortured are doing it to themself for various different reasons. Not being able to forgive yourself for various offenses can be a problem on the other side.

However, most are taken to the light and the light is love. People report feeling unworthy of such love, and when these feelings start to well up, the light just floods them with more love until they finally realize they are loved unconditionally.

Originally posted by wildtimes
...
Here's a great Ted-Talk, though, written by a neurologist who had a stroke and experienced the other side:
Jill Bolte Taylor's powerful stroke of insight
www.ted.com...
Talk about mind-blowing. Wow...
My daughter fwd it to me several months ago. (She rocks!)
Check it out.

That was a good video (except she got a little preachy for me at the end )

I was reading a link mentioning the Eastern Orthodox "negative way" from another thread and noticed this:

Here renouncing all that the mind may conceive, wrapped entirely in the intangible and invisible, he belongs completely to him who is beyond everything. Here, being neither oneself nor someone else, one is supremely united by a completely unknowing inactivity of all knowledge, and knows beyond the mind by knowing nothing.

Eastern Orthodox...

reply to post by Hydroman

If spirits can be raised and matured in heaven like on earth, why doesn't this god just let us be born in heaven and live with him immediately, especially if that's what he wants anyways?

Because we need the experience in the physical realm, among communities, to realize the Truth, we come here (to life on Earth or wherever) from the spiritual realm, where we WERE all born.

It's a teaching method. The school of hard knocks. Experience is the best teacher. If we've never known adversity, pain, grief, worry, suffering....never witnessed it in others, never felt our hearts break for the suffering of our own children or loved ones, we can't fully appreciate the perfect bliss we are born to. In fact, I think parenting is perhaps the MOST IMPORTANT thing we do here.

Just as I cannot explain to someone who's never had a child what it's like to give birth and to raise those children, how that miraculous, unconditional love feels, that seems to just come from "nowhere" (which is a manifestation of the Divine Spirit) when we hold that child, look into its eyes, realize it depends on us entirely, and we are willing to give up our own lives, sacrifice our own sleep and indulgences and needs for the sake of that child....

So could we never fully understand the Spiritual Realm, nor appreciate it. Children don't appreciate what their parents feel and experienced until they experience it for themselves.
Make sense?