Everyone Should Read - Fine Line Between Life and Death

When Tom ridge was the governor of PA he need some sort of transplant. I believe a donor was found after a drive by shooting. This was around 1995, and I am going off memory , but still

reply to post by FlyersFan


Let me put it like this. If I was a vegetable and couldn't move, even if I was conscious I would rather die than continue living. Doesn't that sound like a fate worse than death? Being trapped in your own body...

reply to post by AliWV


The answer to your question:$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Some don't see a person, they see dollar signs.
I believe doctors should have a check list of criteria they have to use,
in front of the family, before you can be pronounced brain dead.

Originally posted by PMNOrlando
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Oh man, this really hits home for me because you see my father, back in 1989 had a massive heart attack and went 21 minutes without oxygen to the brain, he was on life support and our family was asked a few times if we wanted to pull the plug. Doctors told us if he did come back he wouldn't have the mentality any higher than that of a dog. Fortunately my family has a lot of faith and after 12 days we still said no. Thank God that was our decision because 3 days later he came out of where ever he was and was talking and seemed fine, except for some memory lapses, and 3 days after that we took him home.
We had 3 more terrific years with him and the doctors couldn't explain a thing. They said this was nothing short of a miracle.
I'm now having second thoughts of being a donor. However for me the choice will be hard since I am the recipient of a donor. I have 3 cadaver bones in me neck where I had a cervical spine fusion. To add to the miracle for my father. He was a very strict, hardcore, Marine Corp Drill Sargeant for years and was one of the meanest men you could meet. When he came out of his coma he was one of the nicest men you could meet.
God Bless.....

I had spinal surgery in '85. A two hour operation turned into a 7 hour operation. I was severely anemic and it wasn't found until the operation when I lost 7 pints of blood. I received 5 pints during the surgery and was in a coma for a week, maybe two afterwards. They couldn't figure out why I wasn't coming around. I could hear everybody talking, but felt paralyzed. I couldn't speak. It was a very surreal feeling. I almost died when I began choking on my bile, so I remember doctors shoving a tube down my nose into my stomach and continually saying, "Swallow it, swallow it." I couldn't tell them it hurt like h*ll going in. They finally did blood work to find out why I wasn't coming around and found the anemia. I received 2 more pints of blood and eventually did come around. When they did the spinal surgery they ended up shaving chips off of my hip to fuse to my spine. They must have severed nerves because it's still numb in that area and I get severe neuropathy, especially in that area, to this day. I now have major health problems from the surgery.

I found out 2 years ago that 2 months after they put the rod in my spine, the US stopped using it because it snaps on the spine paralyzing the person. I was given the option of going through another painful and risky surgery that could or could not paralyze me to put a new rod in, or risk paralysis keeping it in and hope to God nothing happens to it. I figure if I'm going to risk paralysis with the surgery, or not having the surgery, I might as well leave it and hope to God it never breaks.

reply to post by mossme89


I hear ya .. but the thing is that these doctors don't understand when a person is 'brain dead' or not. These people have come back from supposedly being 'dead' and they were going to be harvested. Those being harvested feel pain .. that's what it looks like from the way the body reacts. They are aware ....

Call me selfish, but this is exactly why I'm not an organ donor, and NEVER will be.

There are a lot of people walking around that are brain dead. They just don't realize it.

reply to post by FlyersFan

There's not a problem with the donor system as much as there is a problem with human compassion, as we are torn between a moral dillema of making timely decisions that effect lives on a larger scale. For all the people "victimized" from being brain dead, have resulted in providing what use left they have a person to someone who isnt brain dead.

Im not a donor mainly for gut feelings ive had on this subject since ive had a liscence. I just feel like because we have instituted a system that undermines our ability to make mistakes because we have the power to define the worth of life withought the consent of the living. Im not aware of how specific the donor program is, but there should be an option for decisions in a vegetative state.

S&F for OP.

Check out this case:


Google for "organ donor wakes up"

Ko3

Originally posted by kimsie


Doctors convince the nurses that the patients family does not have the cognitive skills to understand.
hmmm?

edit on 29-4-2012 by kimsie because: (no reason given)

If you are replying to my comment : My comment was based on general patient diagnosis of some things like congestive heart failure or future overall prognosis of a stroke, kidney disease or cancer etc....

Doctors do not convince the nurses of anything (speaking for myself). Its my job to know where the patient and family is at through my own license and scope of practice. I never rely on a doctor to tell me of such nonsense.

You can tell when an AWAKE patient understands or doesn't, it doesn't take a nuclear scientist to figure that out.

I can tell when I go over their head and their eyes glaze over like I am speaking a foreign language or they break down and tell me they dont want to know, things like that. Trying to bring it down into layman's terms here in my town doesn't always work....There are many folks and elderly without education, raised on tobacco farms etc....they do not understand human biology. They can hardly keep up with why they are even taking medications....All they want you to do is fix them.

That is the problem with modern day medicine. People have come to think that all that ails them can be cured with an antibiotic, pain medication or some other drug.....People have avoided taking responsibility for their own health. Through education of proper diet and exercise many illnesses can be avoided. Not all but many.

I do not work in a clinic, I work in a hospital, so quite honestly I do not have the time required to educate someone for longer than a few minutes. I always explain to my patients that learning as much as they can about their illness is a good thing. People need to become more proactive, not reactive.

As far as coma patients families, I do not think that those families are unable to comprehend. That is not what I said............

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by mossme89

 

I hear ya .. but the thing is that these doctors don't understand when a person is 'brain dead' or not. These people have come back from supposedly being 'dead' and they were going to be harvested. Those being harvested feel pain .. that's what it looks like from the way the body reacts. They are aware ....

This raises many questions for me. Actually when I go back to work tomorrow, I will ask one of the doctors about this and reply back to this thread....

I don't get to work with many coma patients thank goodness, but these doctors do, in different parts of the hospital.

I live in Canada and after reading all the comments on here i wondered hey why i have i never known anyone who had needed a transplant? i mean the way some of you talk its like it is a common occurence in the USA, where as ive never even met anyone whos aqquaintance even needed a transplant in Canada.

And after reading the thread i thaught, Well couldnt this work both ways? if its such a lucritive business that they would lie about death to harvest organs, why wouldnt they lie about the need for transplant in the first place??

Think about that one. Doctors sure do like money... and would probably get quite the kickback from this "business" if they were to "diagnose" you with organ failure....

Originally posted by kman420
I live in Canada and after reading all the comments on here i wondered hey why i have i never known anyone who had needed a transplant? i mean the way some of you talk its like it is a common occurence in the USA, where as ive never even met anyone whos aqquaintance even needed a transplant in Canada.

And after reading the thread i thaught, Well couldnt this work both ways? if its such a lucritive business that they would lie about death to harvest organs, why wouldnt they lie about the need for transplant in the first place??

Think about that one. Doctors sure do like money... and would probably get quite the kickback from this "business" if they were to "diagnose" you with organ failure....

I think it does happen.
I know someone who "needed" a liver transplant, then after they got a new liver and the doctor sent the old one out they said "Well the old one was not as bad as we thought, you really did not need a transplant". But of course the person is now on the expensive Anti-Rejection drugs.

reply to post by AliWV


They were so quick about it because doctors and Big Pharma no longer view patients as people that need saving. They see us only as potential profit. That's why the cure for cancer, MS, Parkinsons, etc. will never be patented, as it is more profitable just to treat symptoms than to cure the disease.

Originally posted by kman420
I live in Canada and after reading all the comments on here i wondered hey why i have i never known anyone who had needed a transplant? i mean the way some of you talk its like it is a common occurence in the USA, where as ive never even met anyone whos aqquaintance even needed a transplant in Canada.

And after reading the thread i thaught, Well couldnt this work both ways? if its such a lucritive business that they would lie about death to harvest organs, why wouldnt they lie about the need for transplant in the first place??

Think about that one. Doctors sure do like money... and would probably get quite the kickback from this "business" if they were to "diagnose" you with organ failure....

Scary. I'm from the UK. And thought the same thing.

This brain dead scam, by the sounds of it was made specifically for the organ donor programme.

I have never believed when doctors make the call the patient is brain dead, that this was determined by them actually going into PVS.

They might not even have been dying, but their ID was the first thing medics checked for, to see if they are donors. That is top priority.Then the medical care they receive revolves around this knowledge. Patient gets put on ventilator & kept alive artificially, so they can have the organs.
The major, most desired organs are better if they came from a living body. So they ventilate and according to OP Article could be conscious & suffering.
I don't believe these patients always died and they took them out of dead bodies.
They don't want your organs if you died yesterday. Car crashes are best, because you are rushed to hospital to be oxygenated on the ventilator.
That ventilator tube also disables vocal chords , so if you did want to yell out and conscious enough, you won't be able to anyways.

Doctors are keen to take organs from a body with a beating heart because the removal of the heart, lungs, liver, pancreas and kidneys must be done before they begin to deteriorate due to cessation of blood circulation
.

I speculate what is really happening is patient A is lying on a table with a 30% chance of survival, while patient B is waiting for a heart that would give them 40% chance of surviving, and the winner is... Recipient. That's how they decide, but will go in the family room and say there is no chance , your son has been declared brain dead, can we have his organs, so in some small way he lives on?

If they didn't find the patient would donate, they immediately inform next of kin with the brain dead story, pleading with them to give away their loved ones organs.

So even if you opt out of being a donor, your family will be scammed into complying against your will.

The above was purely speculative, and called myths by the organ donation societies.


Keep them brain dead

Keep brain dead patients alive to harvest organs

Brain dead patients should be kept alive so their organs can be harvested for transplant, according to controversial new plans by a professional body for doctors.

The British Medical Association (BMA) thinks the contentious practice, known as elective ventilation, could be used to tackle a shortage of organs.

But Professor Nadey Hakim, of West London Transplant Unit, said: “It’s not ethical keeping someone alive. They’re brain dead and you have to remember there’s a family next door in tears.
t

This change affects not really consenting

Currently those who wish to donate their organs opt in by signing an organ donor register, but the BMA favours a system of presumed consent.
.

Babies hearts

And the group is considering developing guidelines for harvesting the hearts of babies under three months old.
.

I really don't think scientists in this century know enough about the brain to determine anything.
I shudder to think I would be kept alive by a ventilator. I say this to my family so much now, do not do that to me!

I am half brain dead, and of course there are things I cannot do on my own. Thankfully I am able to speak and move half of my body. I suffer daily, feeling stuck is horrible. I hate it. I cannot imagine laying there, stuck worse than this, knowing what's going on, not being able to communicate, hearing them say, she can't feel anything. I have paralysis in two limbs and I feel pain, the pain is hyper sensitive. They were jabbing me with needles and wooden skewers at first. I can feel that.

According to the parts of my brain that died, there are things I shouldn't be able to do, but can. They just don't really know.

Originally posted by Debunkology

Originally posted by kman420
I live in Canada and after reading all the comments on here i wondered hey why i have i never known anyone who had needed a transplant? i mean the way some of you talk its like it is a common occurence in the USA, where as ive never even met anyone whos aqquaintance even needed a transplant in Canada.

And after reading the thread i thaught, Well couldnt this work both ways? if its such a lucritive business that they would lie about death to harvest organs, why wouldnt they lie about the need for transplant in the first place??

Think about that one. Doctors sure do like money... and would probably get quite the kickback from this "business" if they were to "diagnose" you with organ failure....

Scary. I'm from the UK. And thought the same thing.

I'm in Canada thinking the same. I have never known anyone to receive or be waiting for a transplant.
I have only known of deceased donating, with consent being from family members, talked into it.

Originally posted by Starwise

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by mossme89

 

I hear ya .. but the thing is that these doctors don't understand when a person is 'brain dead' or not. These people have come back from supposedly being 'dead' and they were going to be harvested. Those being harvested feel pain .. that's what it looks like from the way the body reacts. They are aware ....

This raises many questions for me. Actually when I go back to work tomorrow, I will ask one of the doctors about this and reply back to this thread....

I don't get to work with many coma patients thank goodness, but these doctors do, in different parts of the hospital.

I wouldn't count on them giving an honest answer.
Did you ask?

If you're conscious, your blood if flowing, your heart is beating, and you can feel pain, how the hell can they say that your dead?

Originally posted by Starwise

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by mossme89

 

I hear ya .. but the thing is that these doctors don't understand when a person is 'brain dead' or not. These people have come back from supposedly being 'dead' and they were going to be harvested. Those being harvested feel pain .. that's what it looks like from the way the body reacts. They are aware ....

This raises many questions for me. Actually when I go back to work tomorrow, I will ask one of the doctors about this and reply back to this thread....

I don't get to work with many coma patients thank goodness, but these doctors do, in different parts of the hospital.

REPLY TO POST Originally posted by Starwise
Hopefully this thread will educate YOU too. Not that your eyes seem to be glazing over as this subject is being discussed... but you seem to be second guessing and contradicting yourself as you attempt to express your superior intelligence, all the while, arrogantly pondering the validity of what you actually know about your occupation.

ex: "This raises many questions for me. Actually when I go back to work tomorrow, I will ask one of the doctors about this and reply back to this thread"....
"Doctors do not convince the nurses of anything (speaking for myself). Its my job to know where the patient and family is at through my own license and scope of practice. I never rely on a doctor to tell me of such nonsense."

You would seem to know very little about "tobacco farming" and may appear to be unintelligent in the tobacco farmer's point of view.

I understand what you are saying about peoples need to be more responsible for their own health, their weight etc... but in the same regard, hopefully this thread will allow You to become more pragmatic about your fellow man, whatever their education level and allow you to have more compassion. May this thread allow you to think twice about your knowledge of the unknown before making a life or death decision for a human being and the family that loves them.

If you want to argue with that... I hope you are not working in a hospital near me.