Explain to me how Homosexuals are "born that way".

The main problem with this reasoning is that most things, sexuality included, is a combination of expression from multiple genes and something called epigenetics. It also has to do with hormone levels in the fetus. It's not just one thing or another, and sexuality is not as simple as those hereditary tests we usually do in middle and high school biology.

reply to post by thegagefather


Wow, that is really a interesting? Without really ever having known this I just assumed same sex attraction was a "human" thing basically, lol, besides a few "flukes" with "less emotional" life forms, odd fish and such....

Originally posted by thegagefather

Originally posted by MegaSpace
As an observe to this topic. I just want some clarification on something. To those who keep throwing the gene proof argument. Where is this so called homosexual gene? I done a quick online research & found it’s heresy & pure speculation with no concrete evidence. Does this gene really, really exist?? can it be proved it exists???

Is homosexuality natural?

Well, like I said they can turn female labrats gay by messing with their genes.

Genetic and physiological basis for homosexual animal behavior

Researchers found that disabling the (fucose mutarotase) FucM gene in laboratory mice – which influences the levels of estrogen to which the brain is exposed – caused the female mice to behave as if they were male as they grew up. "The mutant female mouse underwent a slightly altered developmental programme in the brain to resemble the male brain in terms of sexual preference" said Professor Chankyu Park of the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology in Daejon, South Korea, who led the research. His most recent findings have been published in the BMC Genetics journal on July 7, 2010.[27][28]

In March 2011, research shows that serotonin is involved in the mechanism of sexual orientation of mice.[29][30]

Other examples of animals known for homosexual tendancies:

4.1.1 Black swans
4.1.2 Gulls
4.1.3 Ibises
4.1.4 Mallards
4.1.5 Penguins
4.1.6 Vultures
4.1.7 Pigeons
4.2.1 Amazon Dolphin
4.2.2 American Bison
4.2.3 Bonobo and other apes
4.2.4 Bottlenose dolphins
4.2.5 Elephants
4.2.6 Giraffes
4.2.7 Monkeys
4.2.8 Japanese macaque
4.2.9 Lions
4.2.10 Polecat
4.2.11 Sheep
4.2.12 Spotted Hyena
4.3.1 Lizards
4.3.2 Dragonflies
4.3.3 Fruit flies
4.3.4 Bed bugs


en.wikipedia.org...

So again, is homosexual natural - and is it genetic? Look at the empircal evidence and the answer becomes obvious.

IMO - the only way you can conclude that it isn't natural is to purposely ignore all of the evidence.

edit on 29-4-2012 by thegagefather because: (no reason given)

Ok OK.. I will submit to it being proven a natural defect in the procreation process but it would be natural selection in the animal world preventing homosexual defects to continue to be passed through generations because they simply can't procreate. Male anatomy in the rear doesn't equal a baby just as female rubbing isn't going to produce anything.. Defect quickly dies off.. But in this messed up world we coddle our defects as if it's the "right thing." That's another debate in itself.. The point is it's unnatural to have generational homosexuality being passed on through genes just us it would be unnatural to allow homosexual couples to have children.

Originally posted by thegagefather

Originally posted by MegaSpace
As an observe to this topic. I just want some clarification on something. To those who keep throwing the gene proof argument. Where is this so called homosexual gene? I done a quick online research & found it’s heresy & pure speculation with no concrete evidence. Does this gene really, really exist?? can it be proved it exists???

Is homosexuality natural?

Well, like I said they can turn female labrats gay by messing with their genes.

Genetic and physiological basis for homosexual animal behavior

Researchers found that disabling the (fucose mutarotase) FucM gene in laboratory mice – which influences the levels of estrogen to which the brain is exposed – caused the female mice to behave as if they were male as they grew up. "The mutant female mouse underwent a slightly altered developmental programme in the brain to resemble the male brain in terms of sexual preference" said Professor Chankyu Park of the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology in Daejon, South Korea, who led the research. His most recent findings have been published in the BMC Genetics journal on July 7, 2010.[27][28]

In March 2011, research shows that serotonin is involved in the mechanism of sexual orientation of mice.[29][30]

Other examples of animals known for homosexual tendancies:

4.1.1 Black swans
4.1.2 Gulls
4.1.3 Ibises
4.1.4 Mallards
4.1.5 Penguins
4.1.6 Vultures
4.1.7 Pigeons
4.2.1 Amazon Dolphin
4.2.2 American Bison
4.2.3 Bonobo and other apes
4.2.4 Bottlenose dolphins
4.2.5 Elephants
4.2.6 Giraffes
4.2.7 Monkeys
4.2.8 Japanese macaque
4.2.9 Lions
4.2.10 Polecat
4.2.11 Sheep
4.2.12 Spotted Hyena
4.3.1 Lizards
4.3.2 Dragonflies
4.3.3 Fruit flies
4.3.4 Bed bugs


en.wikipedia.org...

So again, is homosexual natural - and is it genetic? Look at the empircal evidence and the answer becomes obvious.

IMO - the only way you can conclude that it isn't natural is to purposely ignore all of the evidence.

edit on 29-4-2012 by thegagefather because: (no reason given)

Thanks.

Ok genes were manipulated by disabling a gene or so, how about a natural occurring gene by nature ever actually been discovered??? Without science ever having to manipulate. Also i don't trust wikis as much as i would trust my ex mother inlaw

P.s im heterosexual & completely neutral to this topic was curious to know if such a gene actually exists or not? That's all.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
reply to post by thegagefather

 

Wow, that is really a interesting? Without really ever having known this I just assumed same sex attraction was a "human" thing basically, lol, besides a few "flukes" with "less emotional" life forms, odd fish and such....

Nothing in our biology seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom - food for thought.

Originally posted by thegagefather

Originally posted by capone1

Originally posted by libertytoall
Has anyone studied or witnessed homosexuality in the animal kingdom besides the once in a blue moon incident? I mean has there every been recorded gay couples in the animal world? This is why I find it unnatural. You cannot procreate if you're gay so the most simplistic outlook on homosexuality proves to be unnatural and against the species progress. If everyone was gay we'd be extinct.. How else can anyone look at it?

I would guess that animals could be gay. Perhaps thats where instinct/desire could be variables.
Humans have evolved so incredibly much that it would be hard for me to accept an animal/human comparison.

Humans are biological entities, and in terms of genetic material, we aren't any more advanced than other species.

In fact, many species have much more genetic material than we do.

That said - you're wrong - humans aren't evolved past animals.

In fact... WE ARE ANIMALS.

edit on 29-4-2012 by thegagefather because: (no reason given)

Again im no expert, but we are on a whole nother level than them. Intellectually, intelligence, etc. They mave has as much genetic material, but Im presuming ours are far more advanced and precise.

reply to post by libertytoall


If the "gay gene" were to be attached to another trait that is beneficial, then yes, it could still perpetuate. Think for instance, chlorophyll in plants. Plants do not gain anything from being green - but they do gain something from chlorophyll and chlorophyll happens to be green.

www.livescience.com...

A team of researchers found that some female relatives of gay men tend to have more children than average. The scientists used a computer model to explain how two genes passed on through the maternal line could produce this effect.

People will argue that its genetics that allows it but its nothing more then a defect in the brain.

Originally posted by MegaSpace

Originally posted by thegagefather

Originally posted by MegaSpace
As an observe to this topic. I just want some clarification on something. To those who keep throwing the gene proof argument. Where is this so called homosexual gene? I done a quick online research & found it’s heresy & pure speculation with no concrete evidence. Does this gene really, really exist?? can it be proved it exists???

Is homosexuality natural?

Well, like I said they can turn female labrats gay by messing with their genes.

Genetic and physiological basis for homosexual animal behavior

Researchers found that disabling the (fucose mutarotase) FucM gene in laboratory mice – which influences the levels of estrogen to which the brain is exposed – caused the female mice to behave as if they were male as they grew up. "The mutant female mouse underwent a slightly altered developmental programme in the brain to resemble the male brain in terms of sexual preference" said Professor Chankyu Park of the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology in Daejon, South Korea, who led the research. His most recent findings have been published in the BMC Genetics journal on July 7, 2010.[27][28]

In March 2011, research shows that serotonin is involved in the mechanism of sexual orientation of mice.[29][30]

Other examples of animals known for homosexual tendancies:

4.1.1 Black swans
4.1.2 Gulls
4.1.3 Ibises
4.1.4 Mallards
4.1.5 Penguins
4.1.6 Vultures
4.1.7 Pigeons
4.2.1 Amazon Dolphin
4.2.2 American Bison
4.2.3 Bonobo and other apes
4.2.4 Bottlenose dolphins
4.2.5 Elephants
4.2.6 Giraffes
4.2.7 Monkeys
4.2.8 Japanese macaque
4.2.9 Lions
4.2.10 Polecat
4.2.11 Sheep
4.2.12 Spotted Hyena
4.3.1 Lizards
4.3.2 Dragonflies
4.3.3 Fruit flies
4.3.4 Bed bugs


en.wikipedia.org...

So again, is homosexual natural - and is it genetic? Look at the empircal evidence and the answer becomes obvious.

IMO - the only way you can conclude that it isn't natural is to purposely ignore all of the evidence.

edit on 29-4-2012 by thegagefather because: (no reason given)

Thanks.

Ok genes were manipulated by disabling a gene or so, how about a natural occurring gene by nature ever actually been discovered??? Without science ever having to manipulate. Also i don't trust wikis as much as i would trust my ex mother inlaw

P.s im heterosexual & completely neutral to this topic was curious to know if such a gene actually exists or not? That's all.

The gene that they disabled naturally occured in nature, and without it, animals aren't straight.

That's your answer. And it's a definitive answer. Because the gene for straightness exists, and can be disabled. Therefore, when that gene mutates or is disabled as all genes can be, the animal no longer has the same sexuality.

Nobody can say "does this gene exist" because as we know from genetic manipulation, no one gene controls ANYTHING. All genes interact with other genes to do other things.

No single gene will ever be found to control all of human sexuality, or animal sexuality for that matter, because it's a series of genes working together, and we've barely scratched the surface of how they work together.

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
What he did was hateful...and VERY unfair

What he did was hide that part of himself that society deemed wrong. Some gays are getting murdered. Gay students are being bashed. Young gay men are being disowned by their parents. This stuff is frightening!

I think I'd try to hide it too.

Case in point, if I'm an infidel in the Middle East and some nasty looking Muslim asks me if I believe in allah. Oh, hell ya! I'm kneelin' on that rug until I get on the next plane outa' there.

Originally posted by Viking9019
People will argue that its genetics that allows it but its nothing more then a defect in the brain.

And what evidence, studies do you have to back this claim up?

They are "born that way" like anything else that is genetic.

Your real question is 'Why are they born that way?"

Survival.

Humans invest a -huge-amount of resources into ensuring the survival of our young. The current population of breeding Humans can also produce more children then they could ever hope to raise on their own. Having non breeding pairings that are still capable of nurturing children is a simple and effective way to either...

A: Provide homes for orphans
or
B: Provide another set of resource gatherers that can contribute to the success of related offspring.

Making homosexuals into pariahs is unnatural and at its core simply a waste of resources.

Originally posted by Viking9019
People will argue that its genetics that allows it but its nothing more then a defect in the brain.

"Defects" in the brain are often caused by genetics.

Originally posted by libertytoall
Has anyone studied or witnessed homosexuality in the animal kingdom besides the once in a blue moon incident? I mean has there every been recorded gay couples in the animal world? This is why I find it unnatural. You cannot procreate if you're gay so the most simplistic outlook on homosexuality proves to be unnatural and against the species progress. If everyone was gay we'd be extinct.. How else can anyone look at it?

I have actually, it's not all that rare. We had a dog who would try to mate with any dog.. didn't matter if it was male or female. I have a female dog right now that when she was younger would try to mount my cats, go figure. I worked with vets and in groom shops, it's normal and it isn't always a dominance behavior. I say that because sometimes dogs will do that because they are trying to show dominance, even female dogs will do it. But it isn't always that.

Originally posted by Viking9019
People will argue that its genetics that allows it but its nothing more then a defect in the brain.

dont talk about religion like that!
its not a defect in the brain, its usually taught to kids by their religious parents.

Originally posted by Helmkat
They are "born that way" like anything else that is genetic.

Your real question is 'Why are they born that way?"

Survival.

Humans invest a -huge-amount of resources into ensuring the survival of our young. The current population of breeding Humans can also produce more children then they could ever hope to raise on their own. Having non breeding pairings that are still capable of nurturing children is a simple and effective way to either...

A: Provide homes for orphans
or
B: Provide another set of resource gatherers that can contribute to the success of related offspring.

Making homosexuals into pariahs is unnatural and at its core simply a waste of resources.

Common misconception.

Species do not evolve to increase their long-term chances to survive.

Species evolve into niches within their enviroment. So a lot of animals will evolve traits that will aid them where they live, but damn them other places.

Just one of the hundreds of "reasons" animals may have developed homosexuality is because nature didn't provide enough partners for everyone, and when animals have those pent-up hormones, they don't think clearly.

Also - since reptiles can be homosexual, and so can apes, and they share a common ancestor, we can assume homosexuality developed literally a billion years ago.

reply to post by Viking9019


Defects in the brain are genetic. Being gay is not a defect it's mother natures birth control!

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by MountainLaurel
What he did was hateful...and VERY unfair

What he did was hide that part of himself that society deemed wrong. Some gays are getting murdered. Gay students are being bashed. Young gay men are being disowned by their parents. This stuff is frightening!

I think I'd try to hide it too.

Case in point, if I'm an infidel in the Middle East and some nasty looking Muslim asks me if I believe in allah. Oh, hell ya! I'm kneelin' on that rug until I get on the next plane outa' there.

No, he should have damned himself to ridicule and hatred by his peers, possibly even given up his personal safety entirely.

Because obviously he was gay because of all of his hate, and wanted to hurt that girl he dated for a whole TWO MONTHS in HIGHSCHOOL.

(Yes, this is sarcasm)

My god... some people...

I am not reading all the replies, no time to do so. I know you are coming from a point of view, that is not biological. Simply put, all males are females in the beginning and certain changes happen at what I think, the 10th week to start reforming the female into male. There is only one template, it is female, we are all female in the beginning.

Now take for instance, a double YY chromosome then you will have an aggressive male, a single Y which is normal and then you have a male. Now this male is composed of DNA, most from the mother, as well as being transmuted into a male from a female. On a scale of one to ten, males become males, at least externally. There are many factors in the scale, some males just never make it anywhere near the double Y, nor even that close to the single Y, they retain much of what they started out to be, female. That is why we see such a diversity among males, we are more closely aligned than most even know. If you look at it from a dispassionate view, you may be able to accept the idea that there is not just two sexes, but a staircase of possible sexes.

For me, I am more right brained and the connection of my brain parts are more akin to that of a female as well as being an artist. I had to ignore many jibes due to this. But in plain fact, I love females and am happily married to one. But then I recognize my uniqueness which puts me apart from the normal males in this society, but not in any way gay. lol, just unique me.

I have sometimes wondered this, but maybe the reason there are homosexuals, is because it is Nature's way of keeping the population on the planet at a certain level. If everybody was 'straight' then our planet would probably be over-populated, we would multiply like rabbits!

If that's the case, then yes, IT IS natural to be LGBT. Also, how do you explain hermaphrodites?