"The Secret Meeting that Changed Hip-hop and Destroyed a Generation"

reply to post by MasterGemini


Talib is saying that he is a part of the rebirth of the conscious rapper. His words reflect the pain of his (black) people living in a reality close to hell. The struggle they they are under going inspires him to keep writing and pressing forward.

Talib was originally signed to Rawkus records. The first producer he was commonly associated with was Hi Tek. Maybe if you actually had a full understanding of NY hip-hop you could see how the song ties back to the Nuyoricans, 5% nation and other NY traditions. Heck, if you just paid attention to the way "black leaders" speak about life in NYC you would get what he was talking about.

At the most basic level, Talib is from NYC. There was a part of the city known as Hell's Kitchen for years. How do you think poor people feel about living in NYC? Look up neighborhoods like Alphabet City, East Harlem, Washington Heights, Queen's Bridge, Look up the history of NYC's "squats." To describe life in that city as hell might be an understatement in many cases.

He can't be talking about all of that though. Oh no, he has to be talking about hell from a Judeo-Christian aspect and discussing magic. He can't be talking about the struggle of his life and his desire to express it through poetry and rap music.

the fact that this so called "article"
has a photoshopped picture of obama getting an eraser head fade
immediately screams bull#...

besides NWA had already popularized drug use violence, etc. in 1989
with the release of straight outta compton...

and seeing how the CIA is already acredited with the Crack coc aine epicdemic at that
time, doesnt lead me to believe a word written in this blog,
or what ever it is...

I call Bull#...

The story makes a lot of sense...

reply to post by Mystery_Lady

Good comeback. I believe you just proved my point of the thread going down hill. A personal attack right off the bat.

What personal attack? It was an observation which was completely correct, you even admit it yourself,

Honestly I didn't know there was rap that was trying to make a positive difference. The only rap I knew of and heard was the violent kind.

Tell me that you wwere not biased after saying that.

A technique usually used by trolls, disinformation specialists, or someone who doesn't really know how to discuss an issue without using slander.

Lol, this could be considered a real personal attack, but I'm not gonna whine.

I believe I said I'm also biased against heavy metal also, but you let that slip didn't you? Yes, I'm against all music that promotes violence, drugs, and immoral sex that treats women little better than sex slaves.

Here you even use the word biased to describe yourself, and you have the guts to suggest that I'm a troll for stating the obvious? Wow lady.

Then ignore it.

Not all of them will go to jail, but many are angry. They get fed that anger through the music.

And you looked inside their minds? Maybe they were angry already and that's why they like the music. Maybe they just like loud, energetic music, whio knows, who cares?

Neither did I say it was the sole cause of people going to prison, but rap along with heavy metal which is mostly violent music plays a part in it. A person already angry, listens to violent music will build up that anger. Some of that music is enough to get a non-angry person angry and violent if they listen to it enough.

That's your assumption, the way I see it the music relieves anger. If I'm angry I put on some loud music and the anger dissipates.

What do you think is going to happen to a person not in a good situation, listening to violent music, and building up their anger even further?

What I just said, and if it doesn't, the music is not the cause of the problem. Like you said, the person is not in a good situation, so why not blame the situation in the first place, instead of the music. The logic is completely lost on me.

I have no doubt that music influences people.

Me neither, but not in a way that it is responsible for messing up lives. That's just biased ramblings by a person looking for scapegoats and refusing to see it is simply society, surroundings and politcs that are causing this.

I don't buy this, that article was pure fiction IMO. Reminds me of this drivel ... Heavy Metal Music Is A Zionist Conspiracy According to Former Advisor To Egypt's ...

I grew up listening to rap since its inception . I used toooooooo love how fun it was.
Most songs were about struggles, and a lot were just plain old fun.

I noticed it turned violent ,racist and ignorant towards the late 80s and I boycotted and still do for the most part unless it is a fun song.

This story is not at all far fetched.

But hey, believe what you want . Some people do not believe anything even if it is right in their face.

This is just another ploy to destroy the people. First blacks and hispanics and now whites and asians.

The controllers do not care about any of us . Only theirs and even then, they would throw their own under the bus and kill them off to get what they desire.

The world should boycott all media and go to the internet and police it themselves so their armies of sellouts,house slave, or whatever you want to call those that dont care about the rest of us are unable to control our lives for profit.

I've seen evil and it is real and it is here on this planet.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady

Neither did I say it was the sole cause of people going to prison, but rap along with heavy metal which is mostly violent music plays a part in it. A person already angry, listens to violent music will build up that anger. Some of that music is enough to get a non-angry person angry and violent if they listen to it enough.

What do you think is going to happen to a person not in a good situation, listening to violent music, and building up their anger even further?

What you listen to the most will go into your heart. What is in your heart will come out through what you speak and your actions.

I have no doubt that music influences people.

You've made some statements here that are solely your opinion, but not really based in facts or a real understanding of the music.

Ever heard these lines before? "I like all music, except rap and country." or "Heavy metal is devil worship." Really? When was the last time you listened to either? How many rap artists and heavy metal artists are you familiar with? Can you even define each genre? Have you read the lyrics? Country music has a lot of questionable content too... husbands and wives cheating, alcohol abuse... maybe there's a conspiracy to get some down-home country folk into the prison system too.

Of course music influences people. I don't think anyone here is arguing to the contrary. But, does that mean there must be some evil conspiracy to fill up prisons by promoting violent music? That's a huge leap. What I do believe is that record companies invest in what sells, and that changes all the time. That is more worthy of exploring than some hair-brained conspiracy theory.

reply to post by Jack Squat


I believe,personally, that there is a glorification of criminal acts brought through music. Music can make people feel in a way that their minds don't recognize. Most jails/prisons are privately owned. The real question is who owns them and why do have a need for soo many? There are towns that are literally surrounded by prisons. When you listen to the messages in hip hop music it's always about getting money and how most singers started out selling drugs to get there and the #1 war in the US is the war on drugs.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by tangonine

 

or how about the Sugar Hill Gang...

i said a hip hop the hippie the hippie
to the hip hip hop, a you dont stop
the rock it to the bang bang boogie say up jumped the boogie
to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat

source: www.lyricsondemand.com...

that's the good stuff...that's what its all about.

That was the great stuff.... thanks man you're takin' me back.

Wow, first time a thread I made went more than 2 pages.

I just wanted to chime in on the comparison to movies that depict similar activities as those of many of the modern terrible rappers in their songs. Both ARE a form of escapism, however movies include actors and stories of fiction, and most people have a "it's just a movie" mind set. Granted a lot of the kids who take what rappers say as 100% true and are influenced by them PROBABLY might have a Scarface poster on their wall.

With rap it's different though. In most cases, the tales of dealing drugs and shooting people ARE equally fictional to those in movies, however rappers in most instances WANT you to believe them when they speak of their street cred. "Keep it real" they say.

Gangsta Rap HAS always been around, but groups like NWA were still including an aspect of social commentary with their music. On top of that, NWA wasn't on the TV and Radio 24/7 like the stuff we see today.

I don't even know if it's necessarily even about raising future criminals as much as it is encouraging ignorance throughout the under educated youth. No rappers in the mainstream are encouraging young urban kids to be smart and make something of themselves. Think about how many black and hispanic kids in the projects might try and go out and better themselves if Jay-Z or Kanye West had a few singles on the radio with the message "It's really difficult growing up in ghetto, but if you work hard you can be something more than a drug dealer." Even if it only influenced one or two kids it would be worth it.

Being cool is the most important thing in the world to kids in elementary/high school, and rappers are for the most part seen as cool. They're looked up to no matter how you spin it.

if were talking about how music influences people and how it leads to killing .
Sure people can be influenced by music but its not the main contributing factor to the people
who commit crimes and are violent as well.

To quote marilyn manson

Marilyn Manson: The two by-products of that whole tragedy were, violence in entertainment, and gun control. And how perfect that that was the two things that we were going to talk about with the upcoming election. And also, then we forgot about Monica Lewinsky and we forgot about, uh, the President was shooting bombs overseas, yet I'm a bad guy because I, well I sing some rock-and-roll songs, and who's a bigger influence, the President or Marilyn Manson? I'd like to think me, but I'm going to go with the President.

Michael Moore: Do you know that on the day of the Columbine massacre, the US dropped more bombs on Kosovo than any other day?

Marilyn Manson: I do know that, and I think that's really ironic, that nobody said 'well maybe the President had an influence on this violent behavior' Because that's not the way the media wants to take it and spin it, and turn it into fear, because then you're watching television, you're watching the news, you're being pumped full of fear, there's floods, there's AIDS, there's murder, cut to commercial, buy the Acura, buy the Colgate, if you have bad breath they're not going to talk to you, if you have pimples, the girl's not going to # you, and it's just this campaign of fear, and consumption, and that's what I think it's all based on, the whole idea of 'keep everyone afraid, and they'll consume.'

Michael Moore: If you were to talk directly to the kids at Columbine or the people in that community, what would you say to them if they were here right now?

Marilyn Manson: I wouldn't say a single word to them I would listen to what they have to say, and that's what no one did.

reply to post by Jack Squat


Gangsta rap was already wrapping up by 1991. In only a few years, it would all be about bling and acting a fool. Either way, rap isn't an important enough medium to get too upset over. It's just bubble gum music now.

It should be said here that while many feel this just could not have happened - it did happen someplace else in a slightly different arena.

I cannot recall the area (Philadelphia?) but a local judge was found guilty of sending, often innocent teenagers, to a private run jail in an elaborate scheme. Grasp this, a private prison was getting a judge to send them cash via kids they imprison, mistreat, feed poorly and many were innocent. Now, this is a lower level stooge, the order most likely came from above the two principals involved.

What people fail to often grasp is it does not take much to shift things. A small group of people could easily accomplish this with very little effort and those in the know would be very small. The meeting leads to a few groups who demonstrate the proper theme who quickly become successful - the talk contracts, money, fame, perks, babes with their friends as word mouth here is huge. How are they successful, that is really easy: they put out albums which are bought by the same people putting them out - this has happened for ages with books and albums too and is a tried and true method to get yourself to the top of the charts (L. Ron Hubbard did it...). Once the album starts charting, those who simply buy based on buzz will make the rest happen in weeks.

Then, after a few successful albums who's groups appear in all the right venues and tv, those in charge of smaller labels will gravitate toward signing groups that mimic the sound. In less then a year, the "successful" groups with radio airplay etc. are working from the original template which has long been forgotten.

Look up the history of the Tavistock institute and its influence on the Beatles, Stones and a myriad of the bands to see how the process works. Use padora to select a song and notice how songs with the same "vibe" all show up even though they seem like totally different songs. Repetition is easy to create.

There is a funny scene in a movie called Hollywood shuffle where the actor auditioning is asked to "be more black." He doesn't get the part. Once the pattern is established, the kid with the positive rhymes will be asked to make it more gangsta or get out, he tells his friends, who come back the next week talking about killing his drug dealing enemy.

As for "I listened and didn't want to kill anyone or wind up in jail" argument, its is a poor argument at best, at worst it is a point of view born of ignorance and a lack of self awareness. 1. The goal is not to get everybody. 2. Folks who are self aware at all will notice a change in their outlook on life, their feelings toward others, this overall sense of self when listening to certain things. If you don't notice it, well you should work on your self awareness a bit more. See Tavistock research and SRI, Stanford Research Institute, for more on the effects of repetitive beats on the human consciousness.

reply to post by fairguy

This might be what you're looking for. I came across it a few days ago.

Illuminati - The Music Industry Exposed (Full Length)

www.youtube.com...

All about rap artists and others like Rihanna and subliminal messages in their videos.
It explains how the artists are told what type of lyrics to write in order to create disharmony and violence.
Also explaining the why's and wherefor's of some of the deaths in the music industry.
Basically saying that a lot of the big artists sold their souls to the devil in exchange for fame and fortune and how some of them ( including Eminem ) have been trying to get out. How some of the artists who tried to get out, or realised that something really bad was going on, had their reputations blackened before being killed.

It sounds a bit far fetched at first but if you watch the whole full length video it actually does make sense and is believable.

(Apologies if the link doesn't work - it's the first time I've tried to link anything on here.)

If this is true (which I have no reason to believe it not to be, and am not surprised if it is), I am more shocked by it than most any other thread.

Music is sacred.

I'm not putting down gangster-style rap; to each his own. However, to use it as marketing, especially crime-induced marketing, is all sorts of wrong. (In my opinion). To force people to only listen to it, and not let them choose for themselves by snuffing out other artists, is wrong.

Oh well.

reply to post by RealSpoke


actually weak attempt at reading on your part.
I specifically related your tyler avatar back to your taste in hip hop and then linked that to your attacking other peoples tastes in music & their opinions..

you are good at arguing but have nothing much to contribute, Or you did to begin with, now you're just arguing...

a bit like what I'm doing now. because I took your bait...

anyway...
Peace.

reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

Tyler is not a rapist as far as I know so pretending to be one for LOLS is just pathetic and weak. and if he was one why would you want to listen to him then either...

It is a lame way to showcase his talent and comparable to a comedian who only does dick jokes.. its a cheap laugh. It does nothing for anyone beyond that. It's not like he opens peoples minds to any profound truths. he's just a little brat talking # about things he knows nothing about and being 'controversial' for the cheap laughs.

some people choose to shake up the status quo for the sake of society.. 2pac, john lennon, run dmc, de la soul... for e.g....

but Tyler seems to have formed a crew to do it for a dollar or just from plain "poor me" syndrome.

Its not enough to just be clever and talented, its about the way you use it...

its like the difference between a metal track that depresses the listener or normalises self destructive behaviours Versus one that expresses a determination to achieve a set goal...

somehow I get the feeling you're from a generation not old enough to know any better.. whats saddest about that is that we're probably only a decade apart if that...

things deteriorate quickly...

Peace

reply to post by crankyoldman


Refreshing to hear some intelligent arguments, crankyoldman. And I don't necessarily disagree. Music has great power to influence the masses, and it doesn't take much to bring about a shift like the one we're discussing in this thread. These sorts of trends are something record labels are very aware of. I still dispute the legitimacy of this letter and so-called meeting- not that it couldn't happen, but that it just doesn't sound truthful.

I was aware of the judges in Pennsylvania who had been paid to hand out prison sentences to youths, but that was two individuals who had a direct influence on the capacity of that particular private prison. It makes sense that they would be a target, but rap music? It's impact on actual crime rates and jail time is much more foggy.

Originally posted by ThoughtForms
reply to post by RandomEsotericScreenname

 

Tyler is not a rapist as far as I know so pretending to be one for LOLS is just pathetic and weak. and if he was one why would you want to listen to him then either...

It is a lame way to showcase his talent and comparable to a comedian who only does dick jokes.. its a cheap laugh. It does nothing for anyone beyond that. It's not like he opens peoples minds to any profound truths. he's just a little brat talking # about things he knows nothing about and being 'controversial' for the cheap laughs.

some people choose to shake up the status quo for the sake of society.. 2pac, john lennon, run dmc, de la soul... for e.g....

but Tyler seems to have formed a crew to do it for a dollar or just from plain "poor me" syndrome.

Its not enough to just be clever and talented, its about the way you use it...

its like the difference between a metal track that depresses the listener or normalises self destructive behaviours Versus one that expresses a determination to achieve a set goal...

somehow I get the feeling you're from a generation not old enough to know any better.. whats saddest about that is that we're probably only a decade apart if that...

things deteriorate quickly...

Peace

edit on 1-5-2012 by ThoughtForms because: (no reason given)

Is the rant over now?

I wanna bet that my musical taste covers a larger part of the spectrum than yours, and its much, much bigger too. Unlike yours, which is off course much, much smaller cause, mine is bigger.

Originally posted by NaKeDuSk
reply to post by crankyoldman

 

Refreshing to hear some intelligent arguments, crankyoldman. And I don't necessarily disagree. Music has great power to influence the masses, and it doesn't take much to bring about a shift like the one we're discussing in this thread. These sorts of trends are something record labels are very aware of. I still dispute the legitimacy of this letter and so-called meeting- not that it couldn't happen, but that it just doesn't sound truthful.

I was aware of the judges in Pennsylvania who had been paid to hand out prison sentences to youths, but that was two individuals who had a direct influence on the capacity of that particular private prison. It makes sense that they would be a target, but rap music? It's impact on actual crime rates and jail time is much more foggy.

As you pointed out with the judge/jailing, it only takes a couple to influence a whole lot of people - think of all those kids who wound up dysfunctional as result.

As for the letter, seems a bit odd to me but raises good points worthy of discussion. I think quite often the goals are not really the goals. To have a small meeting where prison generating activities are cultivated is probably more about demoralizing and entire population, and maybe even the music industry, and gangsta rap is one component that adds to that end.

I lived next door to a very well known, might be the most well known, music label head. A dispute with some "gangsta" rappers about money led to them coming to his house with guns drawn and threats etc. He dropped out that line of producing shortly there after - I guess keeping it real means showing up to your very white, very corporate bosses house and threatening to kill him with an ouzy because you don't understand music industry accounting.

The oft heard phrase "I'm just telling it like it is in the streets" is a meme that works so well to perpetuate the "keeping the black man down." In this form the phrase is used as a battle cry, a badge of honor, rather the then debilitating mind control bumper sticker that it is. Each rapper is MORE real then the last, while simply repeating the same exact line. Each rapper uses bigger guns and more exaggerated hand moves, and more naked girls in his video, but they symbols are all the same, as the very first video template. While each rapper thinks they are showing something new, they are just rearranging the symbolic pieces which lead to their own enslavement. Gun fights, crack, baggy pants are fun I guess, but how does that behavior or talking about that behavior liberate a people? RE:baggy pants. This one is a remarkable symbol, no belts in PRISON mean baggy pants, and yet guys mimic with glee, a symbol of the most repressive reality one can be in - prison garb.

I will say this. To really understand the effect of the sounds, one should remove all the vocals, riffs and anything recognizable and spend and hour listening to the undertone that is present in almost all this style "music" and see how they feel afterwards. There is a rhythmic buzz, speaker rattling, distortion that is in almost all rap, you can hear that drone as the cars pass by - truly mind altering.