Is homosexuality a sin?

Hey Rose Before Time:

Actually 1 Samuel 20:30 has SEVERAL OVERT �sexual� Hebrew words in a row in the Hebrew text but you would have to know a little Hebrew first to be able to know that, I suppose...

But reading the text over even in English.... how can you possibly say that there is NO reference to SEX in 1 Samuel 20:30 (i.e. the words of the so-called �Sauline Temper Tantrum�)? !!!

Try reading the text again: this time VERY CAREFULLY---------

And just to make it easier for you, here are the KEY SEXUAL words in the text:

a. PERVERSE (IVYAH = sexual perversion) [+ REBELLIOUS =marduth = act differently]
b CHOSEN TO MARRY (sexual) = bachar = technical Hebrew marriage term (sexual)
c. CONFUSION (bosheth= cult idol cross dressing)
d.YOUR MOTHER�S NUDITY (qervah = shame, �ritual impurity following birth�)
e. YOUR OWN CONFUSION (sexual).
f. YOUR KINGDOM WILL NOT BE ESTABLISHED (by implication: the spilling of semen)

With all these "sexual" words in one string, how can you possibly miss them all?

(read: How Blind can you Be?)

FYI the �CONFUSION of your MOTHER�S TERM OF RITUAL IMPURITY� refers to the number of days a woman is ritually impure following the birth of a girl (14 days) or a boy (7 days): this period is called a Niddah, or �her shame�: Saul is saying, YOU ARE A BOY NOT A GIRL� YOUR MOTHER WAS ONLY SHAMED FOR 7 DAYS NOT 14----YOUR�RE CONFUSED, MY SON �.!

Here is a translation of the whole very awkward paleo-Hebrew into something like modern English:

�Then Saul's anger started to really burn against Jonathan, and he said to him, "You Son of a PEVERSE and Rebellious Female, do you think I do not know that you have CHOSEN TO MARRY the son of Jesse to your own CONFUSION, and to the CONFUSION of your mother's NAKEDNESS? For every day that the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom are will be stabilized !�

Here is the WBS translation:

"Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thy own CONFUSION, and to the CONFUSION of thy mother's nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the earth, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom !"

Here is the YLT translation:

"And the anger of Saul burneth against Jonathan, and he saith to him, 'Son of a PEVERSE rebellious woman! have I not known that thou art FIXING ON THE SON OF JESSE to thy shame, and to the SHAME OF THE NAKEDNESS of thy mother? for all the days that the son of Jesse liveth on the ground thou art not established, thou and thy kingdom !"

One shudders to ask what translation you are reading �doesn�t it come with footnotes, or is that too much Knowledge to handle for a Believer who must blindly accept whatever his clergy tells him?

I haven't read all the posts so this may have been mentioned already.

Isn't LUST the sin regardless of whether the person you lust after is of the same sex or not?
For example when you masterbate most people either imagine a sexual situation or look at porn. The masterbation isn't the sin, the lusting after the person you are fantersising(sp?)\looking at is the sin???
I'm not a bible basher but that's what I've always thought.
Anything that keeps you from a constant conection with GOD is a sin, and when you fantasise about a person, whether it's sexualy or not, it breaks that conection, and so is a sin.
That's why we are not supposed to worship idols and stuff, put people on pedastalls (my sp sucks sry). It's even a sin to make an image of someone
(photo's, paintings, TV, movies, statuse). God requires us to worship him 24/7.
Usualy it's not the actual act that is a sin but our handling of that action, if you know what I mean?
And i think most stuff in the Old Testament that it's says not to do are not necessarily sins in themselves but are just not safe to do in the society of that time. Like having sex cause it can lead to desease etc...They didn't have condoms then..lol
But anyway the whole reason Jesus came and we got the New Testament is because God realised man could\would not live by those rules right?. So it makes those sins sort of a mute point anyway.

[edit on 4-10-2004 by ANOK]

To Amadeus.

When I said there was no sexual conotations, I meant between Jonathan and David. Maybe Jonathans mother was evil and rebellious, but that has nothing to do with Jonathan and David being sexual partners.

One version (NIV) reads: Saul burned with anger against Jonathan. He said to him, "You are an evil son. You have refused to obey me. I know that you are on the side of Jesse's son. You should be ashamed of that. And your mother should be ashamed of having a son like you. You will never be king as long as Jesse's son lives on this earth. And you will never have a kingdom either. So send for the son of Jesse. Bring him to me. He must die."

The NKJ version reads: Then Saul's anger was aroused against Jonathan, and he said to him, "You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mother's nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse lives on the earth, you shall not be established, nor your kingdom. Now therefore, send and bring him to me, for he shall surely die."

Saul knew that David was chosen to be king and that is what he was angry about.

I know I don't know any Hebrew or Aramaic or other such languages, but I believe God knows how many versions of the bible there is and He is able to keep the truth together. The main thing is, is that we understand the message of salvation thru Jesus Christ.

Hey Rose Before Time:

The verb here in the Hebrew which is generally translated simply with the word "chosen" literally means "chosen to marry" i.e. selected as a sexual partner:

It is a very rare and strange term in this kind of a context...i.e. for Saul the King to be using to describe the relations between two males--which is PRECISELY why it is being used---think about his anger and the reasons for it:

Saul is accusing his son of sexul perversion with "the son of Jesse" and is angry and frsutrated at Jonathan because he cannot produce sons for his dynasty if he continues spilling his seed "confusedly" ... the language here is very very harsh indeed.

You cannot simply choose to ignore all the CONFUSION and SHAME words which were meant as an accusation against Jonathan not supporting the father's plans to establish a Saulite dynasty (Jonathan's son was lame "in the feet" and could not lead armies into battle against Canaanite musters apparently).

These words were part of a tradition which was plainly anti-Daviddic (as some other passages are in the books of Samuel and Kings) but they cannot be merely ignored or explained away. They SCREAM from the text.

If you cannot understand the sense of the words, try reading some other translations and compare them: yours is a very loose paraphrase DELIBERATELY trying to cover up/hide all the homosexual terminaology that is actually present in the Paleo-Hebrew text.

You might also want to read some commentaries in English on this embarassing passage since you seem to be having trouble with it...

I see that no one wants to answer my question. It shows that the only thing in work is fear of hell and nothing more.

Originally posted by masterp
I see that no one wants to answer my question. It shows that the only thing in work is fear of hell and nothing more.

The last question I see you asking is this:

Originally posted by masterp

This has been answered. Sin, according to the Christian religion,
is the breaking of God's law. It doesn't matter if it appears that
no one is hurt or that everyone agrees to it.

Let's not use God in the answer. What is YOUR opinion about sex being a sin. Why, in YOUR opinion, God said sex is a sin? Please don't try to evade the answer.

Is that what you are referring to?

If so, and this question is, instead, to the thread in general - you will only get strict answers from those that believe the Bible is true wholly. You will also be hard pressed to get the "YOUR opinion" you desire, as most questions to any Christian pertaining to Biblical concepts is "because the Bible tells me so".

Others, ie: me, I can not answer that, as I believe the whole of the Bible is misconstrued by man, if not authored by man alone.

Misfit

Edit = punctuation needed for proper inflection

[edit on 5-10-2004 by Misfit]

Originally posted by masterp
Let's not use God in the answer. What is YOUR opinion about sex being a sin. Why, in YOUR opinion, God said sex is a sin? Please don't try to evade the answer.

I'm not evading the answer. I don't think I understand your question.
You said not to use God in the answer, but then you ask why God said
that sex is a sin. I can't answer why God said sex is a sin without using
God in my answer. I don't know what you want here.

The title of this thread is ...'is homosexuality a sin'. Sin is a term used
in religious dialog. God fits into religious dialog. You can not separate
out God from discussion of sin. It doesn't work.

If a person believes the bible is the absolute word of God then they
must also believe that homosexuality and onanism is a sin. They must
believe that it was a sin in the old testament and they must believe it
is a sin now because ... if you are a bible christian .... you believe that God
remains the same and never changes.

I personally do not believe that being a homosexual is wrong.
What I do believe is that homosexuality is inherintly disordered.
The purpose of the male/female is the procreat and continue
the race. Homosexuality does not fill this purpose. I believe
that some are born homosexual and for others it's a
'learned behavior'. That is my conclusion from reading both
sides of the nature/nurture debate. Both sides are correct
in my opinion.

Being homosexual isn't wrong and even according to the bible
BEING a homosexual isn't a sin in itself. However, according
the bible and christian belief ... the homosexual act IS a sin. To
give in is the sin, not to have the inclinations towards it.

That's what the bible says. I don't believe that to be true.

The bible says the act is a sin. I do not fully believe everything
in the bible and so I do not believe it is wrong and that you'll go
to hell. I do believe it is disordered.

So I guess it comes down to - yes, the bible says the homosexual
act and onanism is a sin. However, I do not believe it to be a sin
because I don't fully believe the bible.

Thank you rawiea and ANOK. I really enjoyed reading your post and find them truest to form.

LadyV, I liked your approach by quoting verses, it gives substance to this type of discussion. I think you're right that a lot of Christians can be hypocrits because of their sin nature...just like everyone else. We're trying though, despite being human and all. Perfection cannot be achieved by a person.

While I understand what your saying below:

Christians can be hypocrits because of their sin nature...just like everyone else. We're trying though, despite being human and all. Perfection cannot be achieved by a person.

I have real problems with the fact that those who use the bible for their hatred of homosexuals, usually sin up a storm in regards to drinking, porn, lusting, cheating etc.........but will stand hard on the homosexual stance because they "want" to hate them anyway and it give them a good excuse...I find it most appalling! Not to mention that fact that, as I stated in an earlier post.....Christians that make others look at the religion in bad light.....will be held accountable for it on their day of judgment, according to their own bible.

Agreed LadyV. Hate is exactly what Christians were told not to do.

Why all the hate? Why are so many of you people are wasting so much time and effort on things that really don't matter. What is the point? To elevate your way of life by ridiculing that of anothers.

Perhaps I am just too much of a nihilist, but at the end of the day what has your hatred gained you? A place in heaven? When is hatred a subway tolken to a celestial entry? Elitist social standing? A fleeting group of people that believe themselves to be better then those who are different. The people you desire to surround yourself with really does say something about you.

Why am I bothering to write this post at all? Hatred is rarely realized as what it really is: fear. Witnessing all this wasted energy is exhausting me............

Hi Jonna:

I think the purpose of this thread is to see what "the bible" says about "homosexuality" being "sinful"...and naturally those who suffer from repressed sexual inhibitons etc. would tend to get a little emotional when their tiny little universe is somehow shattered by revelations that the text does not always say what they want it to say....

Unfortunately most persons on this thread do not speak, read or write either paleo-Hebrew or 1st century koine Greek and cannot therefore consult the various and conflicting textual traditions/manuscripts that purport to be "the words of the clan god YHWH of Israel"...which they hold to be authoritative for some reason.

Here's a recap of some of the discussion:

The 4 "hardline" returning post-Exilic Israelite Yahwistic priests (out of an original 24 priestly families) who around 480- 430 BC had come back to Palestine from exile in Babylon were the ones who wrote most of the texts of the OT that we more or less read today---but they used no words or phrase which would equal our word "gay" or "homosexual"--i.e. in the sense of a gay lifestyle etc. Their emphasis was RITUAL not MORAL.

Since "cohenim-priests" of the 2nd Temple period (BC 430 to AD 70) were responsible for codifying the laws of their rebuilt nation, they re-wrote these texts and placed the words into their clan god YHWH in to a TORAH which they in turn attributed to Moses

But their words. phrases and ideas were naturally cultic-priestly in nature and made heavy use of highly reactive (reactionary) cultic technical terms reflecting a Yahwistic priestly-cultic abhorrance to prevalent and ancient Canaanite homosexual male to male fertility rites practiced for centuries before them on the altars of various and sundry clan gods in the region of the Israelite highlands (e.g. the gods Molech, Dagon, Nebo, Baal etal.)

Many persons on this thread would like to see an "answer from God" on this complex issue, and many point out Leveticus 18:18 as "proof" that "god" (i.e. YHWH the clan god of Israel) "hates homosexual practices", whereas the paleo Hebrew text is clearly in reference to "Toqeboth" (abominations) or ritually avoided cultic practices by post Exilic Yahwistic priests (who blamed the fall of their nation to such Toqeboth), and in no way refers to what we would call a "gay lifestyle" .

Moreover, David and Jonathan's relationship as it is expressed in the Hebrew texts using sexual language at times (but watered down by modern translations) such as 2 Samuel 1:26 and 1 Samuel 20:30 and suggests that PRIOR TO THE EXILE, such sexual relationships in the ancient Middle East (especially those of a social superior seducing a social inferior e.g. Jonathan the King's son and David the Shepherd) were not forbidden but were in fact highly common.

(Read the very ancient Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, where the figure of Enkidu (the wild hairy-man) speaks of dreaming about Gilgamesh as "his friend and lover with whom he slept with at night wrapped in his arms" etc.).

If "homosexuality" is considered ritually Toqeboth (hateful) to YHWH and his reactionary priests, so also is the wearing of cotton and linen in the same garment, or mixing seeds in a field, or marrying your aunt (like Moses father did) or a woman wearing pants etc..

All of these cultic no-no's could get you stoned to death in post Exilic Israel, but this was clearly not the case before the Exile...and "God" has absolutely nothing to do with it ...

Those "Christians" who would pick and choose which Toqeboth laws to follow from amongst the 50 or so of these silly cultic prohibitions found scattered amongst the confused and jumbled texts of the "Bible" are deluding themselves if they think these laws have any relevance at all in the 21st century...

And come to think of it, didn't "Iesous" have a particular "disciple whom he loved" whom he allowed to "lean on his breast" during the last supper, sharing whispers in front of the others?

Originally posted by Amadeus
Unfortunately most persons on this thread do not speak, read or write either paleo-Hebrew or 1st century koine Greek and cannot therefore consult the various and conflicting textual traditions/manuscripts that purport to be "the words of the clan god YHWH of Israel"...which they hold to be authoritative for some reason.

May I recommend the Ultimate Bible Study and Resources Center located at www.gnic4u.com...
This site is free, online and contains many bible resources. There are several translations, commentaries, lexicons, bible dictionaries and encyclopedias, concordances, etc. I use it frequently. It is not all you mentioned, but it is a huge kick-start.

What would the bible say......

let's say, not totally bi-sexual, Girl like girls because they are soft and sexy, Can kiss a girl in a party or somethin like that but that's it....how can we analyse that

God or bible or anyone can't be offended by love and kindness, love sharing is what god wants!!!!!! SIN is something that was taken too far

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Go girls

I'm not evading the answer. I don't think I understand your question.
You said not to use God in the answer, but then you ask why God said
that sex is a sin. I can't answer why God said sex is a sin without using
God in my answer. I don't know what you want here.

What I want is you or anyone else to tell me why he/she thinks God says that 'sex is a sin'. What I don't want you to tell me is that '...because the bible tells me so'. For you, what is the reason that the bible says sex is a sin?

There is a reasonable answer to that, and I bet no one has thought of it before. But I will not tell you, if you don't tell me first your opinion.

If a person believes the bible is the absolute word of God then they
must also believe that homosexuality and onanism is a sin. They must
believe that it was a sin in the old testament and they must believe it
is a sin now because ... if you are a bible christian .... you believe that God
remains the same and never changes.

Being a bible christian is the same as being a Jew, actually. True christians believe in the new Testament, brought forward by Jesus Christ.

I personally do not believe that being a homosexual is wrong.
What I do believe is that homosexuality is inherintly disordered.
The purpose of the male/female is the procreat and continue
the race. Homosexuality does not fill this purpose. I believe
that some are born homosexual and for others it's a
'learned behavior'. That is my conclusion from reading both
sides of the nature/nurture debate. Both sides are correct
in my opinion.

I agree with you. Homosexuality is a disorder...a psychological problem. If a homosexual sees deep enough, he/she will understand the reason he/she chooses to imitate the other sex.

I have done a research on male homosexuals, and this is what I have found: they imitate women because something blocks them to get that behaviour out of women. In other words, their sexual behaviour is the behaviour of the woman that they would like to make love with...but something blocks them from claiming that from females, so they revert the search to themselves. The thing that blocks them is fear of male power (that they also have but they deny to see).

I also found out that male homosexuals enjoy being punished. Their psychology revolves around the "i don't deserve to being a man, so I am rightfully punished". Instead of getting the emotional uplifting of normal sex, they get a satisfaction that their 'self' is correct. This is due to emotional rejection/neglection of the male child when he was at a young age.

The two factors mentioned above (fear of power and enjoyment of rejection) creates a 'pleasure orientation' problem in men, where the penis does not physically get the signals of pleasure that it deserves. This results in the male taking pleasure from the other organ that is built for that, namely the prostate. Actually, a man's sexual pleasure always starts from the prostate (heterosexual or homosexual), but heterosexuals focus their pleasure attention on the penis (as a tool that expresses their power), but homosexuals don't; therefore the pleasure signals do not reach the penis in the way that it should.

That's what homosexuality regarding males is.

No matter what is duscussed here, gayness is a perversion. Just like they try to pervert christianity with breaking it down this means this and this means this. You can't break down the bible it wasn't meant to be broken down. If god wanted you to understand him he wouldn't have made it so difficult. Why do you want to understand your god anyways he made you can you really understand that anyways ? But anyhow... I am not even sure if I believe in god any more b/c of people like these who just come together and arugue about htis stuff and noone changes there minds. B/c if you are gay you are looking for something in the worng places you say you feel good with him or her. But, trust me ... one day you will realize that is is just as fake as everything else, that traspires here on earth.

Hi Bet555:

Let me ask you this: Is LEFT-HANDEDNESS a "perversion" in your opinion ? After all it is NOT normal to be left handed.....statistically speaking...

(the number of people who "consider themselves to be left handed" is statistically (roughly) the same number of persons quantity wise "who consider themselves to be gay"in the world, i.e. around 11% of the general population).

People used to be burned at the stake for being "left handed"--after all, it translates as "sinister" in Latin, and therefore "allied with the Devil"....

Originally posted by masterp
I have done a research on male homosexuals, and this is what I have found: they imitate women...

Apparently you haven't done much research, since most gay people don't 'imitate women.'

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON

Originally posted by masterp
I have done a research on male homosexuals, and this is what I have found: they imitate women...

Apparently you haven't done much research, since most gay people don't 'imitate women.'

Yeah and not all gay men are into prostate, (anal) sex either. Have you ever heard of tops and bottoms (a gay term) masterp?

Originally posted by masterp
I have done a research on male homosexuals, and this is what I have found: they imitate women because something blocks them to get that behaviour out of women.

Your "research" led you to this conclusion?
I surely would like to know what your "research" involed, what methods etc.

I read and read the 2nd part of that sentence (they imitate .............) and be darned if I can understand that one.

I do know this, of the friends I have had that are gay, and I don't mean aquaintances, but close friends (including a tank crew-member) they are far from imitating women. You would not know them from any other dude.

Misfit