Liberation? From what?

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
Liberation from what? Many of us believe through spirituality or philosophy, or some other form of inquiry, we are liberating ourselves from bondage and moving towards freedom. What a surprise it is when the realization dawns that we were in fact "liberating" ourselves from freedom and moving towards bondage, or at least from bondage towards further bondage.

. You have unknowingly created the state of delusion and ignorance just so you could transcend it and then claim you have found something "special" and "profound". That which is aware of qualities such as "liberation" and "bondage" is not affected by qualities such as "liberation" and "bondage". In fact, that which is aware of all qualities, be them of the mind, body or spirit/soul, has no qualities itself.

So you were already "free" or "liberated" before you started trying to become "free" or "liberated", you just did not know it. Whether searching for "freedom" or "liberation" in hedonistic ways or spiritual/ascetic ways, you are equally deluded because you are already, and always have been, "free" and "liberated". Thus there is no way, no path, no methodology, no teaching, no substance, no anything, that can bring these 'things' to you because they already exist.

The only mortal being who is truly 'free' is a dead mortal. He no longer exists in this world and his body starts to rot into dust the day he breathes not or his heart stops.

Therefore, if you, only a mortal, claimed that you are 'free' now, it could only mean you are either dead or had not lived.

Animals are born free. They have no obligations to anyone else or anything. They live to exists, to feed and be fed upon, supporting an ecological purpose on our planet.

But you are not an animal. You are a higher being than them, a mortal. You do not exist to feed or be fed upon, but to perform societal and civilisational roles for the progress and evolution of mankind. With such performaces comes responsiblities, rather disdainfully labelled as 'bondage' by you.

As a race, we are bonded to each other, for mankind's purpose. It is within such bonds or responsiblities, that we fine tuned that committment to allow a measure of freedom so that it does not becomes slavery, or 'bondage' to another, as defined by you.

Be free, or 'liberated' as you think you are, but never forget your responsiblities to the human race. You are a mortal, not an animal.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

'Nothing', is not a 'thing'.

Can the mind grasp "nothing"? Only when it makes it something. Of what use is it then to say "I am nothing "?

There is no use in saying 'i am nothing'. Realizing it is another matter, it has to be known.
People believe they are 'things' among other 'things' in a scary 'thing' call the universe. It is a case of misidentification. I am not a 'thing'. I know that for sure.
I am what all 'things' appear within, i am awareness.

The mind makes, the mind creates, it labels what it sees, it defines (draws lines and borders), it separates. There is the 'one' that watches the dividing mind, that 'one' is awareness. It just sees and knows and is never absent.

edit on 21-4-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Agreed. All I was saying is that even "I am awareness" can be another chain if believed in a conceptual context.


Peace.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

If there is nothing to fix, improve, or better.... then what purpose could this thread ever serve?

If "I" am perfect, and if anything to come out of the mind or roll off the tongue is a mere concept... then what purpose does it serve to address anyone else as "ignorant" or "delusional"?

If the meditations, prayers, surrenderings, worships, studies, contemplations, and travels that you have experienced subjectively, relative to the confines of your limited human perspective, has brought about experiences of liberation and freedom to you.... then why do you so quickly state delusion and ignorance to the experiences of liberation and freedom of others?

Sir, the "I" which is perfect is not the "I" that is speaking. This thread is for people like you and me, which is why we are here. And "my" experiences, travels, practices are just as "pointless" as yours. In fact when I said that I was speaking from my own thoughts on my own "journey". There is nothing that applies to 'you' which doesn't apply to 'me'. Both are equally deluded, I wonder if you know that though? That is the point of this thread.

"what you're searching for, is where you're searching from". But it is only true to the person who discovers it within themselves. Trying to short cut enlightenment by saying to yourself and believing that you are already free, doesn't produce the realization of liberation.

reply to post by Sahabi


Brother, no need to get angry and defensive. In fact if it is at all comforting, I do not doubt 'you' hold more knowledge and are a 'better' human-being. You are worried about humanity, and i see the same things. Much of my family and friends have suffered greatly. Many in jail, many killed, and so on. Even i have suffered greatly, many scars and stories to verify. Yet the "i" that has sufcer
ed is not the true "I", it is just an idea which h is seen by the true "I". This false "I", which is the ego and the one speaking/replying, cannot find liberation because it causes the bondage. To see this as true is all that has to be, and can be, done. Once seen, a revolution in the Psyche spontaneously takes place. No effort, no ambition, no contrivance, none of that.

You seek to oveethrow the curremy ptb because you feel they are wrong, corrupt and deluded in their perception of life, I will agree. Yet by overthrowing them you assume control, and if you also have a deluded perspective of life; a fragmented mind full of fear and ambition, then how are you any different then them? You aren't, sorry. Check out some of Lao Tzu's writings, he talks it about governing from the perspective of a sage.

Ps sorry for the spelling, using a phone.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


You pose such objections in the "Liberation" thread that I authored, and then you author this tread with such a directed title defending your previous objections. Excuse me for taking direct offense. I don't enjoy hostile discussion, but I also don't enjoy being the object of a friend's perceived ignorance.

This thread is for people like you and me, which is why we are here.

And yet you proclaim to know division and unity?

"I am the TPTB, I am the enslaved.
I am the unlearned beggar, I am the sage.
I am the wiseman, I am the fool.
I am me, I am you."


Is there really a need to differentiate between "I" and "I"? It's like allowing your Self the disillusion of a metaphysical dissociative identity disorder. Regardless of what "I" you are talking about, or which spoken or unspoken concept you attribute to it.... it is still You and I. Once it is realized, let it go and gain the understanding. Make Peace and reconcile the two into the one. People like me and you vanish and Self begins to love and treat Self as Self. This understanding paves way for even more compassion and empathy towards Self, 'others', and All.

What does this lead to? It leads to the realization of the immense responsibility that I, this human manifestation and awareness, have on this world. Then we stop calling others "ignorant" or "delusional" over superficial ideologies. We understand that some 'others' are not ready to realize or handle the responsibility of their creative power and responsibilities. Love and Service to Others becomes the most obviously beneficial pursuit.

Either this, or we can live with our heads in the clouds being so focused on the "pure awareness" that we dilute and detach from the purpose of being human. Elevate ourselves above others based on assumed knowledge and wisdom. Become apathetic and catatonic to life, mankind, existence, and perception.

What is the great benefit in calling others ignorant and dillusional in favor of propagating that which is purely aware of the awareness? That decided to put on this meat suit, so I must be the best meat suit "I" can experience. And that includes dissolving passivity and defeatism in favor of utilizing the gifts of imagination, choice, and co-creation.

reply to post by Sahabi


You are not in control of life, nor is life in control of you, because you are life. You have grown hostile and violent because you feel separated from life and think you control it, and thus are able to feel attacked by it. I suppose even the Buddha was spit on, kicked and shouted at because of what he was saying was misunderstood. Ignorance never likes to be seen as ignorance. I have already conceded that I am just as ignorant as you, can you do the same? If not, then who truly is on a "high horse "?

Ps all of those quotes in your signature were wrote by men who stood upon the ground of passivity and preached it as a method of social action.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

Star

Telepathic conversation or something? My last reply appears as a near perfect response to your reply right before it. However, I was slowly writing the entire time, pressing "Reply" before ever seeing your last words. Oh well.

Buddha may have been spat on, but even he became upset when experiencing others cause deliberate suffering to others. Even Jesus lost his peace and flipped the tables of the money changers. All of a sudden you are likened unto Lord Buddha and I his oppressor?

I don't feel separate or attacked from life. I feel reactionary to you stating my call of 'liberation from the bondage of superficial differences' as a concept of ignorance. What you say is true in the higher states of awareness, but what I was presenting was directed at 'being human' and a clarity of choice of how to influence this physical reality. Not an ignorance of I, Self, and Me.

When we get to certain attainments, we realize everyone is in a state of ignorance. Why? Because in the present moment we are limited to relative human perspective. That is why I so often mention subjectivity, relativity, semantics, and blind men and an elephant. I agree that we are both talking about the same thing according to the best of our gnosis. Up until your previous nice reply, you were responding to me in this and my thread in the stance of, "your concept is ignorant, I will tell you why you are wrong and I am right." Naturally (due to unrestrained emotions), I took the hostile offensive.

I feel a great relief of frustration going away as quickly as it arose thanks to your efforts of reconciliation. As you reconcile, I reconcile.

This entire thread has been an emotional reaction. If focused on that which is purely aware.... none of this would have been possible. Curse or blessing?

My honest, and sincere acceptance and offering of forgiveness. Peace.

reply to post by Sahabi


Okay. Well, what I have said still remains. There is no path, no method or no practice that can bring liberation from bondage (ego), because that which strives for liberation is bondage. Therefore the illusion of liberation is painted So it can be transcend, it's all a giant game. This is obviously meant for people like you who already have already realized the illusion is there but maybe are still searching for methods of transcending it, which is obviously just another egoic projection. If what I said is also seen as a method or practice then it has been misunderstood. There must be a way to silence the mind or else the ego will run rampant and war and greed and anger and defensiveness and ideology will continue to evolve into an even greater problem. yet that "way" cannot have a methodology or practice or else it is just another 'thing' to defend and fight over. The mind must see itself as hopeless, as not in control, as not able to bring about silence, then silence/pure awareness/ heaven can thrive in all it's glory, here, right now.

Anyways, please enjoy the rest of your weekend friend.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


It is not the mind that has to see that it is hopeless because the mind cannot see. All the mind does is chatter, it is impossible to silence the mind. But this chatter (mind/thought) is seen and heard within the silence. The silence contains the mind.
youtu.be...

When thoughts are seen as 'things' that appear and disappear, the 'mind' is no longer problematic. The thoughts are then seen to be not what i am. I am what thoughts appear in, i am what all 'things' appear and disappear in, but I never disappear.

LifeIsEnergy and Sahabi i have just stumbled across this video by Adyashanti which explains what happens after awakening, just though you might like it. youtu.be...
Liberation from seeking.

reply to post by Sahabi


Thank all that is sunny you stepped in brother, the op and his opponent were starting to make my head spin, exciting to read, but goodness!

What a thread!
X
A

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


You are both right, but I wanted to tell you that you will not disappear for the knowing...
I hope that wasn't out of line.

much love to you in your adventure.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I am what thoughts appear in, i am what all 'things' appear and disappear in, but I never disappear.

This too is just a thought. The ego has now transferred identity from the individual person to the infinite and absolute. This is also what many religious and nationalistic people do, they claim "selflessness" by transferring identity from the small illusion of a "person" to a larger illusion of a "nation" or "religion". Now that you have transferred identity to the absolute, when someone like me comes along and claims there is no such thing as "the absolute", that it is no less of an abstract concept created by the imagination than say the "person" or a "nation" is, you will be in strict opposition to me because I am now challenging your entire identity.

This is why the mind must recognize its nature and not create beliefs and imaginations about what 'it' "truly" is, or what is beyond it. Only when the mind sees its incapability to solve what it perceives to be problems, will it stand down and be quiet. Once this happens the mind and the body can be one, they will function together as one mechanism of life, and there will be no more need for beliefs and imaginations about what life or God or the Absolute is. Now the mind will not be in conflict with the body, nor the body with the mind, nor the mind with the mind (one thought against another). The body will direct the mind and the mind will direct the body. Any time the body does not need the mind it will be quiet. There is no "I" needed in this process. All identification with the absolute, or with awareness, is useless at this point. The only reason one would continue to use "I" in thought is for communication purposes.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

It is the belief of me existing in time that causes the problem. I only exist now.
Be liberated by realizing that i can only be here and now.
Then it is seen that there is no one to liberate.
There is only ever 'this'.

edit on 21-4-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Always on message. Very impressive.

The truth is that besides the "now" of the material realm, there is the entire informational continuum that persists and is added to by each "now" that emerges only to be replaced by the next instant of "now". You do have to deal with that informational continuum that contains all that evidence concerning who you have been from "now" to "now" ever since you began being anything at all.

That informational continuum provides you with the identity that you have, and you depend on it for your own sense of self. Claim what you wish, but you leave a trail of facts behind as you move forward from one instant of "now" to the next. Those facts exist and will always exist. Imagining them to not exist doesn't liberate you from anything other than your own realization of what is as opposed to what you wish could be.

Knowing what's up isn't the worst way of dealing with reality.