Liberation? From what?

Liberation from what? Many of us believe through spirituality or philosophy, or some other form of inquiry, we are liberating ourselves from bondage and moving towards freedom. What a surprise it is when the realization dawns that we were in fact "liberating" ourselves from freedom and moving towards bondage, or at least from bondage towards further bondage.

How could this be? Certainly the OP is full of **** and has no clue what he is talking about! I have meditated, prayed, surrendered, worshiped, studied, contemplated deeply, traveled the world on pilgrimage... all of that good stuff, and it has brought about experiences of liberation and freedom! Trust me, it is possible!

Yes, I know, this is what you say. Yet this is just a bunch of delusional rhetoric, I am sorry, but it must be said. You have unknowingly created the state of delusion and ignorance just so you could transcend it and then claim you have found something "special" and "profound". That which is aware of qualities such as "liberation" and "bondage" is not affected by qualities such as "liberation" and "bondage". In fact, that which is aware of all qualities, be them of the mind, body or spirit/soul, has no qualities itself.

So you were already "free" or "liberated" before you started trying to become "free" or "liberated", you just did not know it. Whether searching for "freedom" or "liberation" in hedonistic ways or spiritual/ascetic ways, you are equally deluded because you are already, and always have been, "free" and "liberated". Thus there is no way, no path, no methodology, no teaching, no substance, no anything, that can bring these 'things' to you because they already exist.

Do you see this? Not the 'you' that has qualities and a title, but the 'you' that is aware of all these qualities and titles. The awareness. The seer and the seen are one through seeing; the thinker and the thought are one through thinking; the heard and the hearer are one through listening... and so on. There is no division already, so any attempt at unification will ironically only breed further separation. "I" cannot better myself because "I" am already perfect, in the sense that "I" has no qualities because it is merely pure awareness.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


I have always been nervous about new age type stuff saying that I must give up my ego to become better.

The way I interpreted Childhood's End (If you haven't read it, it is about aliens taking over the Earth and preparing us for ascension to join some higher being or something) was a hive mind absorbing us through coercion. Not my kind of thing.

S&F

Peace.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


There are many, many people (most) suffering from mind made delusion, many are in agony, some even kill their physical body to try to escape the pain. To be liberated from 'false belief' stops the fear and anxiety that is the human condition.
Awareness does not need to be liberated but it does have to be recognized as what you are before the misidentification can be known.

So one must be aware of the conditioning to be liberated from mind made delusion (lies).
The one that is aware of all 'things' is free of all 'things'.
Your essential nature is unconditioned.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Yes. And yet the 'you'; which is the one trapped in bondage and thus the one trying to find a way out, is what is causing the bondage. So, then how can this 'you' free itself ? It can't! Yet we know of no other way and so we continue to search for "liberation" through the 'you, the "I", the "me"... that is the point. So, yes, awareness is the key but as long as it is "my awareness " which is attached to this body somehow, then it still cannot bring "liberation". Only when we completely except that there is nothing "we", "I", "me"... can do.to bring about "liberation", then the mind, the ignorance, the bondage, is placed into checkmate where there is no room tomove. Now that awareness can be pure, now that boundless ocean of silence can stop rippiling with noise, now that chain of bondage can not only be broken but seen to have never existed but as a mirage.

Peace friend.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Awareness does not need to be liberated but it does have to be recognized as what you are before the misidentification can be known.
It is just a case of misidentification.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


It is the belief of me existing in time that causes the problem. I only exist now.
Be liberated by realizing that i can only be here and now.
Then it is seen that there is no one to liberate.
There is only ever 'this'.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Yes. And yet the 'you'; which is the one trapped in bondage and thus the one trying to find a way out, is what is causing the bondage. So, then how can this 'you' free itself ? It can't! Yet we know of no other way and so we continue to search for "liberation" through the 'you, the "I", the "me"... that is the point. So, yes, awareness is the key but as long as it is "my awareness " which is attached to this body somehow, then it still cannot bring "liberation". Only when we completely except that there is nothing "we", "I", "me"... can do.to bring about "liberation", then the mind, the ignorance, the bondage, is placed into checkmate where there is no room tomove. Now that awareness can be pure, now that boundless ocean of silence can stop rippiling with noise, now that chain of bondage can not only be broken but seen to have never existed but as a mirage.

Peace friend.

There is no way out. There is no escape. And 'who' (what) is it that wants to escape and from what does it want to escape? An illusion.
What is seen is seen by the seer. The seer and the seen are one.
It's just scenery.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


OK, well how do you do that? The identification with awareness is still the bondage. The mind can switch what it identifies with very easily, be it a name, a body, a nation or race or even some abstract concept like awareness. So identification with awareness does us no good. Awareness must be intensely pure and any identification is the mind rippling the waters of this awareness. only when the mind sees itself to be the Maya can that intense our awareness be. And this can only happen when we are fearlessly honest with ourselves and unafraid to lose everything.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Yes. And yet the 'you'; which is the one trapped in bondage and thus the one trying to find a way out, is what is causing the bondage. So, then how can this 'you' free itself ? It can't! Yet we know of no other way and so we continue to search for "liberation" through the 'you, the "I", the "me"... that is the point. So, yes, awareness is the key but as long as it is "my awareness " which is attached to this body somehow, then it still cannot bring "liberation". Only when we completely except that there is nothing "we", "I", "me"... can do.to bring about "liberation", then the mind, the ignorance, the bondage, is placed into checkmate where there is no room tomove. Now that awareness can be pure, now that boundless ocean of silence can stop rippiling with noise, now that chain of bondage can not only be broken but seen to have never existed but as a mirage.

Peace friend.

There is no way out. There is no escape. And 'who' (what) is it that wants to escape? An illusion.
What is seen is seen by the seer. The seer and the seen are one.

edit on 21-4-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Exactly!

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

OK, well how do you do that? The identification with awareness is still the bondage. The mind can switch what it identifies with very easily, be it a name, a body, a nation or race or even some abstract concept like awareness. So identification with awareness does us no good. Awareness must be intensely pure and any identification is the mind rippling the waters of this awareness. only when the mind sees itself to be the Maya can that intense our awareness be. And this can only happen when we are fearlessly honest with ourselves and unafraid to lose everything.

It is the mind that identifies. But the mind is seen.
The seer (awareness) cannot be identified because it cannot be seen.
I am awareness and i am aware of all things, including the mind. To identify as any 'thing' is a case of misidentification.
Awareness is not a 'thing', it is the knower of 'things'.

I am not any 'thing', i am nothing. Have i identified myself?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Exactly. Yet "I am nothing " has giving "nothing" the quality of something. Once we are there really isn't anything left to say, now there is pure silence.

Peace


_

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


'Nothing', is not a 'thing'.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

'Nothing', is not a 'thing'.

Can the mind grasp "nothing"? Only when it makes it something. Of what use is it then to say "I am nothing "?

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

'Nothing', is not a 'thing'.

Can the mind grasp "nothing"? Only when it makes it something. Of what use is it then to say "I am nothing "?

There is no use in saying 'i am nothing'. Realizing it is another matter, it has to be known.
People believe they are 'things' among other 'things' in a scary 'thing' call the universe. It is a case of misidentification. I am not a 'thing'. I know that for sure.
I am what all 'things' appear within, i am awareness.

The mind makes, the mind creates, it labels what it sees, it defines (draws lines and borders), it separates. There is the 'one' that watches the dividing mind, that 'one' is awareness. It just sees and knows and is never absent.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


If there is nothing to fix, improve, or better.... then what purpose could this thread ever serve?

If "I" am perfect, and if anything to come out of the mind or roll off the tongue is a mere concept... then what purpose does it serve to address anyone else as "ignorant" or "delusional"?

If the meditations, prayers, surrenderings, worships, studies, contemplations, and travels that you have experienced subjectively, relative to the confines of your limited human perspective, has brought about experiences of liberation and freedom to you.... then why do you so quickly state delusion and ignorance to the experiences of liberation and freedom of others?

You speak of the concepts of "I"... the relationship between the perception and the perceiver... the relationship between the subject and object... the relationship between the thing being observered, the one experiencing, and the conscious awareness that is aware of the observer and observed.....

( * I'm not going to debate this, because this is a thing of gnosis. What do I mean by gnosis? I mean, that which is self-evident... that which words can not describe without corruption. * )

I am going to say, when we apply this type of understanding to EVERYTHING, then we lose. I Am That I Am, pure awareness.... this is an understanding, not the end of the path.

When we have gnosis of Self... this is comparable to suddenly realizing, "Hey, I am not this video game. I am playing this video game."

And then what? Is everything perfect as is? I say no. We discover to 'Carpe diem!!!' We realize we have choice and creative imagination that we can manifest physically through our co-creative powers to affect the change that we wish to experience and observe.

When we gain an improper or too strong of an attachment to a want, desire, intent, thought, emotion, or an idea... this is a cause of suffering, but not synonymous with suffering in its self. Is this not a form of Liberation?

Is it in ignorance or in delusion that I use 'choice' or 'imagination' to effect change? To use 'choice' and 'imagination' for compassion, empathy, and helping others?

If everything is perfect as is and serves its precise purpose the way it is.... then why do we have 'imagination' or 'choice' at all? Shall I not think about recycling, or donating charity, or clearing obstacles from roadways for the intent of helping my fellow human? Why do anything at all if it is the way it is supposed to be.

You speak of a true gnosis.... but I disagree with your application of it. This way of thinking serves no functionality in one's own life, nor does it address what it is to actually be human. This is the talk of one better off ingesting hallucinogens and drooling on one's self in an isolated place.

Those of influence, such as Hilary Clinton, have stated an "information war".
Couple this with the arts of psychology, propaganda, and social engineering. These are actual happenings in this physical reality. So is there no need to remain of free mind and liberation from those who wish to influence and manipulate others through knowledge of the workings of the human mind and psyche?

Your op does not address such things, but only propagates a defeatists mentality of submission to the way things are. No need to imagine or co-create change, because "that" which is aware is perfect as is. Non-functional wisdom of an ascetic with no use or application to those who utilize choice, imagination, and co-creative powers.

There are known and unknown levels, layers, and appendages of reality. "Different games have different rules." Your op seems to grasp the "highest level" of attainment kgnown to you, and you then force it onto the other levels and onto us with the declaration that we are the ones who are ignorant and delusional for having different SUBJECTIVE understandings than the op. What peace is this?

I am all for discussion, debating, and sharing. As one does not step into the same river twice, so to have you changed. Get off your high horse and illusions of grandeur. How dare you ever reference my work as delusional or ignorant in favor of your own. This is what I meant by "Blind Men and an Elephant" and 'semantics.' You have lost sight that no matter how differing we understand.... we are experiencing and describing the same thing in our own subjective ways. We are confined to this limited human perspective, but you have the audacity to throw ignorance at me but attribute truth to your self?

No, no my brother. You say the apple is red... I say the apple is juicy. I kgnow that your differing answer does not make you wrong. Your throwing delusion and ignorance at me is wrong. Yeah, yeah... wrong is a concept too. See what I mean when I said this type of wisdom is for the detached and catatonic?

That which is aware..... but I don't forget to play by the rules of being human.

I'm done.

Peace.