U.S. Standard of Living Has Fallen More Than 50%

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by TheRedneck

And you are trying to redefine terms to support your position.

Sorry, but I don't debate moving targets.

No I am not. Those are the true definitions....

In the traditional sense, "capitalism" means the ownership and control of the means of production by a class of "capitalists" (in the traditional sense, the owners of capital, or means of production used by workers other than the capitalists/owners themselves) and an economic and political system that favors this.

In the traditional sense, "socialism" means the ownership and control of the means of production by the workers themselves, whether as individuals, cooperatives, collectives, communal groups, or through the state, and an economic and political system that favors this. One should note that this does not necessarily mean by the people as a whole, nor does it necessarily mean state ownership, nor does it necessarily imply a non-market form of organization; historically, anarcho-individualism (e.g., in the free-market form advocated by Benjamin Tucker) has been an important form of socialism.

www.nolanchart.com...

You my friend are MSM educated. You are using the misrepresented version of these terms, that is why what I am saying is confusing you. You should try actually reading something about economic system instead of just taking what you have been told as the truth.

You seem to be applying an economic condition of socialism as the only definition of socialism. I fixed the parts of the external quote which you bolded to illustrate that.

A condition is but one element of a definition, it is not the entirety of the definition itself.

Are you, perchance, limited to a collegiate eduction without the concurrent real-world experience of living in or having dealt with The Hive? I ask that not out of spite, but rather because you seem to be wearing academic blinders that prevent you from seeing application as it has occurred on the ground, in the real world.

Without the repressive political structure, the economic structure cannot stand alone. With the repressive political structure, the economic structure eats itself.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by JanAmosComenius

 

Well, then I correct my statement. I should have said ask ALMOST anybody from a former communist country. Anarchism is no better. Revolution and anarchy is no better than Authoritarianism. It is all rooted in leftist ideology.

I'm assuming you never experienced the gulags. I don't understand how anyone can leave a communist country and still be hungering for that nonexistent Utopian dream.

edit on 18-4-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

What you need to understand is the view from the ground THERE. For most residents of communistic countries at that time, what they had was all they ever knew. They did not, for the most part, feel themselves "enslaved", because they never knew anything else. The impression we had in the west was of an Orwellian world in black and white and shades of dreary gray, but the view on the ground for the people who lived there has the same vibrant colors, the same birds and butterflies, as any other place.

It was all they ever knew, it was "home", and they were accustomed to it, to the exclusion of anything else. The reason most "foreigners" (from an American perspective) saw things differently than Americans is because they lived there, and we only knew of it what we were told, just as they only knew what they were told of America. I recall seeing Soviet propaganda posters against America that looked disturbingly like American propaganda against the Soviet Union. Same black-suited , jack booted thugs in each side's propaganda, but aimed at the other side.

They only knew what they were told, the same as we did for the most part.

In the aftermath of the collapse of Communism, and without an alternate framework in place, Eastern Europe underwent pretty much the same thing that the American South underwent in the aftermath of the Civil War, what we call "Reconstruction". They were descended upon by economic vultures who ransacked, raped, and ruined the land they formerly knew for the economic advantage of the outsiders rather than the benefit of the residents. We called them "Carpetbaggers" in the reconstruction Era, and it seems that "Foreign Mutlinationals" is the currently in vogue term for the same sorts of vultures as they pick the bones of what these people have always called "home".

From their perspective, the little they had "then" is preferable to the nothing they have "now".

Communism wasn't "bad" because it had no friends - at one time, communists were the only friends that about a third of the human inhabitants of Earth had. It was "bad" because of the forced repression that it bestowed upon it's populations, and worse because it prevented them from realizing they were repressed. It was "bad" because it never prepared them for the Economic Vultures who descended in it's wake, leaving them in even worse condition than it found them.

Now, in America, there is a fascism rising that will have the same results here if not checked. It is repressing us, and desperately trying to keep us from discovering that we even ARE repressed. That fostering of an ignorance of the repression is far worse, in my mind, than the repression itself. You can fight, and fight hard against a repression until you are happy with your condition.

You cannot, however, fight it if you don't even realize it is there to be fought.

The commonality between our version of Fascism and their version of Communism is the centralization of power and control in the State, while claiming is is for "the common good" When you hear "the common good" being bandied about, but SEE all power and control going to the State or it's representatives or de facto masters, you have "collectivism", where the substance of the people is bled off and given the State. the State, in return, just pisses on your head and tells you it's only rain.

It really doesn't matter in the long run which label you put on that. The results are the same.

reply to post by nenothtu


I dont know about you but I have seen some of the world. America is still a place people are dying to get into.
There is no place like home, and well I don't need some smart ass college kid Commie to tell me how much the cost of living was in 1970 or what the wages and prices of gasoline were cause I was there.

You all need to see this thread on ATS by BiggerPicture: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Get a job....................

All our friggin good jobs are over in India and China, our government sold us out because our government is run by the large corporations that put profits before people.

And the scale of living standard is getting wider and wider, the middle class is systematically being disbanded but most of you simply don't see it coming at ya.

Originally posted by rebellender
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I dont know about you but I have seen some of the world. America is still a place people are dying to get into.
There is no place like home, and well I don't need some smart ass college kid Commie to tell me how much the cost of living was in 1970 or what the wages and prices of gasoline were cause I was there.

Yup, it is still the best place to be as far as I'm concerned, and apparently a lot of other people from other countries. There are some real crap-holes still out there, and to me that is all the more reason to be vigilant and guard what we have, to try to keep it from becoming just another one of those crap holes.

Make no mistake, they ARE trying to convert us, to drag us down to a lower standard, and it seems they are meeting with a degree of success.

The funny thing is, I was THERE too in 1970, and saw it first hand. No smart-ass college kid can tell me ANYTHING about what was, or where it has slid to especially since it's most likely they WEREN'T there, and know only what they can read out of the textbooks. I recall the 1973 Arab Oil embargo and the SEEING gas lines wrapped around the blocks. I recall the price of gas rising to 95 cents a gallon early in 1979, and thinking "how are people going to survive?"

Geez, if I'd known then what I know now, things might have turned out differently, and more abrupt, for me!

Big Mike knows the score.................you all need to see this.



Now this video is broken down clearly enough that most of you should be able to "get it".

Big Mike explains what happened to the American Middle Class...and why the American Dream has slipped so far out of reach for many families.

reply to post by eriktheawful


Do you recall the outcry and outrage when Toyota started trying to sell cars in America in the 70's? I do. It was rough on folks who bought those "funny furrin cars" - why couldn't they just get a decent American car, made in America by Americans, instead of "Japanese junk"?

Then in 1988, I bought a brand new Mercury. the only brand new car I've ever bought - got it for my missus at the time. It was a Mercury... as "American" as it gets. Only had 16 miles on it when I paid cash and drove it away. Got it home and started going over it, and Everything in that "American" car had a little white sticker with black printing on it. each sticker said... "HECHO EN MEXICO".

reply to post by nenothtu


I have no answers here, but I am living the reality. To fix the problem, I mean really fix it would take a change of mind set for us.Stopping the madness will take us stopping the enabling. That takes courage and hope and then we will change this back to what it once was.

ETA: do we have the courage to
Fire every politician
Abolish all bureaucrat federal agencies
Stop using Banks
Stop purchasing everything but food
Buy food from American owned mom and pop shops, Nationalized Immigrant is American by the way
Live without working for 6 weeks I figure
Live without buying gasoline for 6 weeks
Cant get sick and stock meds

6 weeks I figure would bring some change but it would take courage to stick it out.

Courage to say no to the first second and third set of changes Gov. would want to bring to appease.

No Ron Paul add here, he is just a good looking Generic band-aide...it just wont stick

reply to post by Leftist


It's not just the U.S. that is in trouble, it is the entire world economy.

You want to put all the blame on the Western Nations, while ignoring that the reason the third world is where it is economically is because of the culture of the third world. The corrupt leaders of the third world and the "sedated minds of the few poor fools" who live there are just as responsible for, if not more responsible, for the predicament of the world economy.

Most of the countries on this planet are hierarchical societies, and have always been hierarchical societies. Structured societies, where there is virtually no opportunity for the common person to get ahead, which makes them consistently stagnate. Slavery has been normal throughout the history of most countries in the world, and the culture of those societies quickly surrender to the practice of slavery.

Free societies have always been far more productive than structured societies, and that is the biggest difference between first world nations and third world nations. This is why the first world nations have been flooded with immigrants. See, the rich and powerful in the first world nations would like to have the power their third world counterparts enjoy in third world nations. The answer is to bring in large numbers of people who are willing to do anything, because where they come from, that is how they live out of desperation. They are willing to sacrifice the rights we fought for, because they don't see the connection between those rights, and our higher standard of living.

The next part of the formula is great increases in productivity. We need less people to produce stuff, therefore, less demand for workers, which pushes down wages. Especially with large numbers of immigrants. The answer is the approach the Europeans have been taking, which is to share jobs. Work fewer hours and take more vacations. The U.S. has gone the opposite direction, with fewer people working longer hours. Once again, this creates a level of desperation, and turns everyone against each other in this illusion of scarcity. All of this plays into the hands of the power mongers who need those big houses and overly priced luxury items to feel good about themselves.

The problems are far bigger than most people want to consider.

Originally posted by rebellender
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I have no answers here, but I am living the reality. To fix the problem, I mean really fix it would take a change of mind set for us.Stopping the madness will take us stopping the enabling. That takes courage and hope and then we will change this back to what it once was.

That's exactly right - there is no easy fix at this point.

Greed makes the world go around, it appears. There is a biblical verse that is often misquoted as "money is the root of all evil." The ACTUAL quote says "the love of money is the root of all evil." Greed, pure and simple, is what got us where we are.

The greed of the "corporate entities". the greed of the unionized workers. The greed of the "poor" looking at the "rich" and wanting someone to give them "their" share of that, as if anyone has a claim on what they have not produced. The greed of the Pied Piers in DC promising the greed of the have-nots that they would "give" them something for nothing, knowing all the while that they can't give what they don't have, and that they will have to TAKE it from someone else... but always, ALWAYS keeping more than their own share for themselves.

The greed of the Socialists thinking they have some sort of "right" to what they have not worked for, merely by calling themselves "the workers". The greed of the capitalists, thinking they can bleed off more profit than was agreed upon to begin with by throwing a few people over a barrel and watching the rest of the fearful fall into line... after all, that might affect THEIR greed of it filters over to them, so they'd BETTER fall in a line!

Greed. And none can see that their own greed is even there, much less an integral part of a far larger greed-driven cycle. It feeds itself - the greed from the top stimulates the greed at the bottom, and the greed at the bottom in turn strengthens the greed at the top by feeding it of it's own substance.

I don't care at all for such abstract notions of "who owns the means of production". If I own them, I will do with them as I see fit, either for success or for failure. if, on the other hand, someone else has a say in how they are run, then I do not "own" them by any stretch of the imagination, and I will walk away from them, just as fast as I can, and let those others operate them as THEY see fit, either for success or for failure. There is no such thing as "workers owning the means of production". By making a plurality out of ownership (the same could be said of corporations), no one really "owns" it at all any more, except on paper. If anything, the State owns the means, and just tells the workers that they somehow "own" the means to placate them and keep them working, same as corporations do but telling the workers they are somehow benefiting from working there. It ALL plays on the greed of the workers to enrich someone else.

My own personal solution is to control my own means, and let other folks look out for theirs. When I make a contract, I do what I agreed to do for the price they agreed to pay, and I don't gripe about it. If their price is too low, I don't make the contract to begin with. If they fail to pay what they agreed, I walk away with the job undone. They can do it their DAMN selves if that's the way they want to work it.

I don't use credit at all much less live on it like most folks do. Other people can willingly walk into debt slavery if their greed leads them that way. I'm not going to follow that Pied Piper who promised one thing to their greed, and delivers quite a different thing to their corpus.

Like I said, that's just MY solution. Other people can let the debtors wring blood from their noses as they're being led along all they like. Chase that next newer ipod for all I care. Just be aware of where that road will lead you to, and don't complain when you arrive.

reply to post by poet1b


Yep, somebody is sitting on a very big mountain of gold.
for sure!!!

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Free Market isn't Free Enterprise, nor is it Market Economics, or even Capitalism.

Free Market economics is corporate control of the government, The absolute worst form of government.

Market economics with sprinkles of socialism was working just fine until Reagan, Bush, and Bush came in and replaced the system with Free Market economics, where the middle class subsidizes the export of our jobs, and people are fooled into voting into office politicians who are against our government, and blame all problems on the government, while pretending corporations are above doing bad things, ignoring all the bad things that corporations do.

reply to post by poet1b

Market economics with sprinkles of socialism was working just fine until Reagan, Bush, and Bush came in and replaced the system with Free Market economics,

oh really!!! what about Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, L.B.Johnson ...

reply to post by nenothtu


Thank you very much. You described very well our situation. I should add that the information blockade was not absolute. Anybody who really wanted was able to get it. It was hard, sometimes even dangerous .., but it was possible.

As a side note I'll try to translate one now popular joke:

Everything what Bolsheviks said about communism was false; everything what they said about capitalism was true.

I think its perfect description of mood around me.

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

Do you recall the outcry and outrage when Toyota started trying to sell cars in America in the 70's? I do. It was rough on folks who bought those "funny furrin cars" - why couldn't they just get a decent American car, made in America by Americans, instead of "Japanese junk"?

Then in 1988, I bought a brand new Mercury. the only brand new car I've ever bought - got it for my missus at the time. It was a Mercury... as "American" as it gets. Only had 16 miles on it when I paid cash and drove it away. Got it home and started going over it, and Everything in that "American" car had a little white sticker with black printing on it. each sticker said... "HECHO EN MEXICO".

Oh yes, I do remember those times!

The funny thing about that, I had a friend that had a old Datsun B210. He remembered when he got it new, he'd get funny looks from people all around him. Yet the car lasted him damn near 30 years.

My father had a Chevy Nomad. He loved that station wagon, built like a tank. He darn near cried when he had to sell it when he got stationed over seas.

Back to the topic.........

reply to post by nenothtu

Chase that next newer ipod for all I care. Just be aware of where that road will lead you to, and don't complain when you arrive.

Seems we have been convinced to sacrifice our liberty for shiny toys. The biggest toy of them all has been the automobile, and our love for this vehicle and the seeming freedom it provides has slowly morphed us into slaves of a disposable gadget system.

Originally posted by JanAmosComenius
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Thank you very much. You described very well our situation. I should add that the information blockade was not absolute. Anybody who really wanted was able to get it. It was hard, sometimes even dangerous .., but it was possible.

Then you had to sort out fact from fiction, even after getting the information. For example, "Radio free America" painted a rosier picture than reality, and I would think that would automatically make some people suspicious - a "that's too good to be true, so it can't be" sort of mind set.

I recall hearing how blue jeans we gave 20 dollars a pair for here were selling on the black market there for upwards of the equivalent of 500 dollars in some places, and that was used as justification to think every one there wanted "the American Way". I never quite got that thought out of the sale of a pair of jeans.

As a side note I'll try to translate one now popular joke:

Everything what Bolsheviks said about communism was false; everything what they said about capitalism was true.

I think its perfect description of mood around me.

I'm a little slow today, and it took me a minute to realize that is an indictment of BOTH systems, but when I realized that, I thought "yeah, that IS funny, in a morbidly fascinating sort of way!"

reply to post by rebellender


Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, L.B.Johnson certainly contributed their share, but the big change came under Reagan, and it was not for the better.

The same people who ran the Nixon admin ran the Reagan admin, and both Bush admins.

reply to post by Leftist


Um I'm getting that the average hourly rate in 1970 was about $4. So not sure where your getting these numbers from but you can check mine here: www.data360.org...

reply to post by NoJoker13


yeah,,,no kidding
he/she/ is about oh say 25 and has read not lived all she knows about Amerika

If a foreigner is maybe a student here? lapping up Amerika, apple pie and MacDonalds and baseball