Hiroshima ....just an experiment on the already defeated?

Originally posted by Bakatono


Really? Holy crap are you reaching for straws at this point.

Ok, one, no one is in Afghanistan raping and murdering babies by the thousands (millions)

two, WTF does this have to do with AQ and 9/11?

If you are attempting to justify AQ's actions as an act of war then I would say yes, from a strategic standpoint they accomplished a pretty lofty goal. They used minimal manpower, almost no technical resources, scant cash and accomplished an event that set off what could be considered a world war. They did it without discrimination against those that were in the buildings other than they were "the enemy" and they wanted to break our will. They miscalculated but hey, they did follow the "art of war".

I in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY think they were RIGHT to do so. I do not think the killing of innocents is ever right and I take exception to the fact that you would insinuate such a thing. To accuse me of such a thing is either small minded or the intent of an angry and feeble person who feels they need to lash out and do harm to others. I have seen the evils of war and I do not advocate for any of them. I am sure that you were comfortable in your chair while I was enduring my time learning what death means and I am sure you have a great many opinions about it. Good for you. When it is your time to experience these things, I wish I could be there to hear your opinions then.

It WAS a mildly interesting conversation, your prior insults aside, but I am done with this now. You are a tool and your intent is to insult. Good-bye.

Its too bad that you cannot seem to follow a simple train of thought. You repeatedly denounce one side for tactics that you consistently approve of when "your side" did it. That is what I am trying to point out to you, and maybe expand your mind to think outside of your USA-centric box. But unfortunately, all you can do is get indignant and blustery.

So, as long as we arent raping and killing "by the millions", its OK? I dont understand your point. Are war crimes OK when one side does them , but not another? Or should all war crimes be punished equally?

You cant use Japanese war crimes as justification for the atom bomb. Unless you believe that we deserve to get nuked by al-queda for our crimes. Thats my point. Just a couple weeks ago, our forces shot dead a bunch of Afghanis. 2 were raped before being killed. warisacrime.org...

I guess we deserve to get nuked right?

The atomic bombing of Hiroshima was decided upon to force a Japanese surrender rather than a prolongation of the war which would entail an Allied invasion of Japan with predictably fierce house-to-house fighting.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were picked as targets primarily because they had not been heavily bombed in previous raids, so that it would be relatively easy to demonstrate that all the devastation was the result of a single atomic bomb and not from any conventional bombs. Hiroshima was bombed first, and it was hoped that this would be enough to compel Japanese capitulation, but when the Japanese persisted in warfare then Nagasaki was bombed as a demonstration that the devastation was no fluke and could be repeated. If the Japanese had still not surrendered then the US would have been in an awkward situation because it did not have a third bomb ready and there would have been a delay before a third bomb could be dropped.

Originally posted by Bakatono
I have dated girls whose fathers were there when the bombs dropped; we had interesting conversations......She has extensive stories, she is almost 100. However, I am speaking from a position of a little more authority than you in this case. I lived it, you read it. Sorry.

Originally posted by Bakatono
Oooooh, you heard stories, good for you.

Are you being serious? You are going to insult me, after claiming that you "lived it" because you talked with your Japanese girlfriends dad??

Originally posted by Shoonra
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were picked as targets primarily because they had not been heavily bombed in previous raids,

CAN ANYONE READ???

I posted the link to the declassified document. You are spreading false information. Nagasaki was never an intended target, at least not chose by the Target Committee. Why are multiple people repeating this after I have debunked it at least 3 times on this thread, that is only three pages long??

Deny ignorance.

A question:

There's 4 targets listed, but the US had pilots picked up to dropping a 5th atomic weapon.
What was the 5th target then?

1st Lt. Norman Ray was the pilot chosen to drop the 5th bomb, had they used that many.
(sidenote: Ray trained George McGovern to fly B-24s)

Tokyo was dropped from the list due to the Emperors' Palace, and all the historical artifacts there.

EDIT: sorry if I missed another target list, but once I saw 9/11 stuff, I just scrolled past down.....

Originally posted by Yahm16
A question:

There's 4 targets listed, but the US had pilots picked up to dropping a 5th atomic weapon.
What was the 5th target then?

1st Lt. Norman Ray was the pilot chosen to drop the 5th bomb, had they used that many.
(sidenote: Ray trained George McGovern to fly B-24s)

Tokyo was dropped from the list due to the Emperors' Palace, and all the historical artifacts there.

Again from the link www.dannen.com...

the 5th target was Niigata. As you mentioned, the Emperors Palace was discussed as well.

Since no one can be bothered to go to the link, ill just put it here.

6. Status of Targets

A. Dr. Stearns described the work he had done on target selection. He has surveyed possible targets possessing the following qualification: (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter, (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August. Dr. Stearns had a list of five targets which the Air Force would be willing to reserve for our use unless unforeseen circumstances arise. These targets are:

(1) Kyoto - This target is an urban industrial area with a population of 1,000,000. It is the former capital of Japan and many people and industries are now being moved there as other areas are being destroyed. From the psychological point of view there is the advantage that Kyoto is an intellectual center for Japan and the people there are more apt to appreciate the significance of such a weapon as the gadget. (Classified as an AA Target)
(2) Hiroshima - This is an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target. (Classified as an AA Target)
(3) Yokohama - This target is an important urban industrial area which has so far been untouched. Industrial activities include aircraft manufacture, machine tools, docks, electrical equipment and oil refineries. As the damage to Tokyo has increased additional industries have moved to Yokohama. It has the disadvantage of the most important target areas being separated by a large body of water and of being in the heaviest anti-aircraft concentration in Japan. For us it has the advantage as an alternate target for use in case of bad weather of being rather far removed from the other targets considered. (Classified as an A Target)
(4) Kokura Arsenal - This is one of the largest arsenals in Japan and is surrounded by urban industrial structures. The arsenal is important for light ordnance, anti-aircraft and beach head defense materials. The dimensions of the arsenal are 4100' x 2000'. The dimensions are such that if the bomb were properly placed full advantage could be taken of the higher pressures immediately underneath the bomb for destroying the more solid structures and at the same time considerable blast damage could be done to more feeble structures further away. (Classified as an A Target)
(5) Niigata - This is a port of embarkation on the N.W. coast of Honshu. Its importance is increasing as other ports are damaged. Machine tool industries are located there and it is a potential center for industrial despersion. It has oil refineries and storage. (Classified as a B Target)
(6) The possibility of bombing the Emperor's palace was discussed. It was agreed that we should not recommend it but that any action for this bombing should come from authorities on military policy. It was agreed that we should obtain information from which we could determine the effectiveness of our weapon against this target.

I am kind of on the fence about the necessity of the Tokyo fire bombings and Hiroshima, I would say that Nagasaki was unnecessary, and was more about terror and vengeance, than trying to prevent ultimately higher casualties.

Looking at "modern" warfare, yes, I think the west has become preoccupied with fighting proxy wars with no fear of loss of life or retaliation, it makes war more palatable, especially to those ignorant or the horrors of war. War is horrific, yes, but that is not an excuse for the abuses and more horrific acts perpetrated in war. The west uses technology to indiscriminately take life, without fear of reprisals, they use it as a tool to instill fear of the west, by patrolling the skies of nations that are not declared enemies, and instilling the constant fear of retaliation by the west for perceived wrongs or insubordination.

Unfortunately, many of the horrors get swept under the rug, the victors after all, get to write the history.

reply to post by aching_knuckles


You need to verify that the website you are linking to actually contains what you believe it contains before you expect that everyone will believe you.

The document that website refers to may or may not actually exist. How are we to know that the website is credible?

Also, in response to your question about the US getting nuked... Yes. In a way we do deserve to be nuked. And yes, in a way, we did deserve what happened on 9/11. It is no moral fault on the part of the terrorists that their vision of the world conflicts with ours. We are at war with them. We can't expect them to hold anything back, and they should accept that we will hold nothing back.

I have followed the entire conversation here on the topic of the Bomb. Much of it was good and rather intelligently presented - BUT - and its a big #####-ing BUT -- 2 of them actually.

Most here actually believe the government version of 9/11 - for this there is absolutely NO excuse. Just plain blind ignorance and stupidity. Be ashamed for that you assholes.

Not one person here metioned the name of the Grand Worshipful Master who was the primary perpetrator of the entire Atomic Bombing event(s) from start to finish. Now - here's the point of the post. If you guys are stupid enough to believe the scumbags in government regarding 9/11 then you surely do not know the name of the most important 33rd Degree Mason who was personally responsible for the slaughter of the innocents at Hiroshima/Nagasaki. He had the final say, and all other meetings and agendas that discussed the best way to go about it were just so much BS - play acting for the public at large and for the historical record.

As far as the Talmudic Zionist's were concerned the guys who worked te Manhattan Project were merely dumb grunts - Goyim - aka "cattle."

The major decisions had already been made by those in the positions of most power - Masonic power that is !!! The manhattan Project was operating under the cloak of the Zionism disguised as the Masonic Order - scum every one of them.

Have you all figured out the name of the son-of-a-bitch evil monster yet??? Probably NOT - you dumb ####'s

Enola gay you should have stayed at home yesterday.

Once the nuclear bomb had been developed it was inevitable that it would be used at some point.

Yes Japan was on the back foot, but the war would have dragged on for years.
Anyone who knows anything about the Japanese psyche etc knows that they would have defended their country to the death and every yard gained would have cost more allied lives.
It wasn't just military expediant to put an end to the war as soon as possible but also politically, economically and dare I say it morally.

And it was a massive lesson to mankind as a whole.

Not that the US could 'nuke' anyone but of the implications of any future use.
Ever since then we have been faced with the MAD scenario, and guess what - it's worked.

Sure as night follows day someone would have used a nuclear bomb at some point.
If it had been later it would have been a more powerful weapon and there would have far likelier been a reciprocal response.

We all spend far too much time looking for someone to blame instead of learning the valuable lessons that history can teach us.
And the most important lesson to be learnt here is that we can not and must not let this happen again.

I have followed the entire conversation here on the topic of the Bomb. Much of it was good and rather intelligently presented - BUT - and its a big #####-ing BUT -- 2 of them actually.

Most here actually believe the government version of 9/11 - for this there is absolutely NO excuse. Just plain blind ignorance and stupidity. Be ashamed for that you assholes.

Not one person here metioned the name of the Grand Worshipful Master who was the primary perpetrator of the entire Atomic Bombing event(s) from start to finish. Now - here's the point of the post. If you guys are stupid enough to believe the scumbags in government regarding 9/11 then you surely do not know the name of the most important 33rd Degree Mason who was personally responsible for the slaughter of the innocents at Hiroshima/Nagasaki. He had the final say, and all other meetings and agendas that discussed the best way to go about it were just so much BS - play acting for the public at large and for the historical record.

As far as the Talmudic Zionist's were concerned the guys who worked te Manhattan Project were merely dumb grunts - Goyim - aka "cattle."

The major decisions had already been made by those in the positions of most power - Masonic power that is !!! The manhattan Project was operating under the cloak of the Zionism disguised as the Masonic Order - scum every one of them.

Have you all figured out the name of the son-of-a-bitch evil monster yet??? Probably NOT - you dumb ####'s

No one figured out who "really" dropped the bomb(s) and why?
I'm not surprised !

edit on 15-4-2012 by Vitruvian because: EDIT

Like the others said, it's most likely to be a big test. I mean what's the point of the bomb anyway? It was called a BOMB for a reason simply to eradicate the enemy and to strike fear to the nation. It's no secret that this bombing run is just to see it's effect and devastation to the enemy. So the next time they use one (ex. in the Future) They will now what payload is enough to use.

@Offtopic: I recall that according to some history books, during those desperate times, when they did the trinity test at Nevada. Some scientists were afraid that they might Lit up the atmosphere into flames and burn the whole Layers, well there was one way to find out...

Originally posted by Infrasilent
You need to verify that the website you are linking to actually contains what you believe it contains before you expect that everyone will believe you.

Seriously? How about actually going ot the link, where that information is presented?

Source: U.S. National Archives, Record Group 77, Records of the Office of the Chief of Engineers, Manhattan Engineer District, TS Manhattan Project File '42-'46, folder 5D Selection of Targets, 2 Notes on Target Committee Meetings.

TOP SECRET TOP SECRET
Auth: C.O., Site Y, N.M.
Initials:
Date: 12 May 1945

This document consists of 7 Page(s)
No. 1 of 4 Copies, Series A
U-13-XIX-1A


DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 11653, Sec. 3(E) and 5(D) or (6)
NND 730039
By ERC NARS, Date 6-4-74

Do you believe it now?

reply to post by aching_knuckles


Nagasaki wasn't initially a target. But in July '45, after your document, it was decided to replace Kyoto with Nagasaki, allegedly because a US government minister admired Kyoto, it's people & architecture. How true that is I don't know.

On the morning of the Nagasaki attack, the bomber airplane headed not to that city but to it's primary target, Kokura. But that city was covered in clouds. So the aircrew then proceeded to the secondary target, Nagasaki, where visibility was better.

That is my understanding of the targeting of Nagasaki.

I dont think so. The US was a major player during World War I but I do not think they were willing to sacrifice millions in an invasion of Japan. For Russia to take Germany they lost between 10 and 20 million soldiers and the Germans about 3 Million soldiers. Can you imagine even 1 or 2 million dead GIs in under a decade?

reply to post by aching_knuckles


It is genrally agreed that an invasion of Japan would have cost the Allied Forces 1 million lives. What is ignored is that the number of Japanese could have been 10 million +

Ordinary people were being trained as suicide bombers, children being trained to run into a crowd of soldiers with a grenade, etc.

Even if the deathtoll was only half a million, it would still be more than the 350,000 killed by the bomb or who later died of radiation poisoning. Japan would have never given up, and to look back and judge is misguided. Today, no one would agree to dropping the bomb. But do some research, do the math, and it actually adds up, for once. The sad truth is, the 2 A-Bombs SAVED LIVES.

Go ahead, crucify me, but bring facts.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
Japan would have never given up,

If this is true, if the Japanese were so radical that they would fight to the death, to the last man, and kill their own women before we advanced.....then why did they surrender to the A-bombs? Why didnt they just scream "BANZAI" and start suicide attacking anyway? Because the "fanatical Japanese" myth is a propaganda lie to make Americans feel better about being the only country to ever nuke someone else.

Because they were beaten.

We could have killed more people without the A-bombs, using firebombs and conventional bombing (see firebombing of tokyo). This alone proves it wasnt about numbers, it was an experiment to gauge the effectiveness on structures and humans, and to allow the US to take Japan by itself for its own economic interests. Which shows a great deal of inhumanity basically so we could make more money and kill better.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but facts are facts and what you have is opinions and conjecture.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
Japan would have never given up,

If this is true, if the Japanese were so radical that they would fight to the death, to the last man, and kill their own women before we advanced.....then why did they surrender to the A-bombs? Why didnt they just scream "BANZAI" and start suicide attacking anyway? Because the "fanatical Japanese" myth is a propaganda lie to make Americans feel better about being the only country to ever nuke someone else.

Because they were beaten.

We could have killed more people without the A-bombs, using firebombs and conventional bombing (see firebombing of tokyo). This alone proves it wasnt about numbers, it was an experiment to gauge the effectiveness on structures and humans, and to allow the US to take Japan by itself for its own economic interests. Which shows a great deal of inhumanity basically so we could make more money and kill better.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but facts are facts and what you have is opinions and conjecture.

Then why not surrender after the first bomb was dropped? That alone disproves your claim.
As for the fanatical Japanese being a myth, how do you explain Kamikaze and the plans for deploying many more sacrificial weapons?
Where exactly are these facts you allude to?

Also, was a mostly intact Japan a benefit to the US? YES, obviously. An invasion could have led to a North/South Japan, and because we did it without the Russians, Japan is what it is today.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86

Then why not surrender after the first bomb was dropped? That alone disproves your claim.

There were serious meetings occurring, discussing just that fact. In fact, the Japanese had been sending peace offerings since early 45. We Gave them three days. In three days, they had barely been able to assess the damage efficiently.

By the end of January 1945, the Japanese were suggesting peace terms.[23] These proposals, sent through both British and American channels, were assembled by General Douglas MacArthur into a 40-page dossier and given to President Franklin D. Roosevelt on February 2, two days before the Yalta Conference. Reportedly, the dossier was dismissed by Roosevelt out of hand—the proposals all included the condition that the emperor's position would be assured, if possibly as a puppet ruler; whereas at this time the Allied policy was to accept only an unconditional surrender.[24] Additionally, these proposals were strongly opposed by the powerful military members of the Japanese government.[25]

I am not denying there are lots of military leaders that wanted to continue the fight....but there were also those who realized not surrendering would bring more pain to Japan.

Listen, I am no Japanese apologist.

But the fact remains, we did what we did to 1) test the A-bomb (and scare Russia) 2)secure our financial future in Japan.