American Mass Graves

Originally posted by stumason
I never said anything chap, just posting some info i came across. So calm down, and stop with the personal attacks.

I�m not quite sure what you took as a personal attack, and I did look at the pictures and found the suggestion of them being unreported casualties kind of silly. As to the return of fallen heroes it is more than a penchant, it is a very important aspect of the USMC. As for your example of WW2 I would think that had more to do with communications abilities at the time not some kind of policy��as for making sense, unreported casualties would make for a story that would undermine support so it would make sense that they are accurately reported.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by stumason
Dont like uncomfortable questions do you? Seem to get rather touchy at the possibility your beloved Gov is lying!

where is this anti-american vitriol of which you speak? The only vitriol i see is the garbage you're posting...

Your colors are beginning to show, stumason. You make my case.

stumason, take my advice, don't let Grady get to you. He has a habit of attacking and saying nasty things,.......... I know this all to well.

Oh and Bush blows ,


But seriously, I would hope that they are not just burying some of our "troops" to hide the body-count,........... but of course we're talking about George Bush & Co., .............. sssssssooooooooooo , I would not put it pass Bush to order the commanders to keep the body count at a low count,..... at least until after the "election" in Nov., but I as a "good" American, will let it be known as I will write a letter to the editor .

Oh yea,.............. and Bush really does blow

I still think it's probably mercs...



April 13, 2004

By Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn

Baghdad - At least 80 foreign mercenaries - security guards recruited from the United States, Europe and South Africa and working for American companies - have been killed in the past eight days in Iraq.

Lieutenant-General Mark Kimmitt admitted yesterday that "about 70" American and other Western troops had died during the Iraqi insurgency since April 1 but he made no mention of the mercenaries, apparently fearful that the full total of Western dead would have serious political fallout.

He did not give a figure for Iraqi dead, which, across the country may be as high as 900.

At least 18 000 mercenaries, many of them tasked to protect US troops and personnel, are now believed to be in Iraq, some of them earning $1 000 (about R6 300) a day. But their companies rarely acknowledge their losses unless - like the four American murdered and mutilated in Fallujah three weeks ago - their deaths are already public knowledge.

The presence of such large numbers of mercenaries, first publicised in The Independent two weeks ago, was bound to lead to further casualties.


But although many of the heavily armed Western security men are working for the US Department of Defence - and most of them are former Special Forces soldiers - they are not listed as serving military personnel. Their losses can therefore be hidden from public view.

The US authorities in Iraq, however, are aware that more Western mercenaries lost their lives in the past week than occupation soldiers over the past 14 days.

The coalition has sought to rely on foreign contract workers to reduce the number of soldiers it uses as drivers, guards and in other jobs normally carried out by uniformed soldiers.

Often the foreign contract workers are highly paid former soldiers who are armed with automatic weapons, leading to Iraqis viewing all foreign workers as possible mercenaries or spies

elaine, I am inclined to agree with you, after reading your last post. I must say though, that I do not agree with the "not counting" of the dead Merc's and not reporting it. People need to know that it is worse than what President G W Bush is telling the United States, he keeps playing it off as " not as bad as some would like the public to beleive", when it IS . I just hope people will use their brains to see that Bush is not the right man, come Nov.3, and vote his hinny to the curb.

I think you're right Nanna. They should report ALL the casualties but they don't. It would look too bad to the American public.

Originally posted by elaine
I think you're right Nanna. They should report ALL the casualties but they don't. It would look too bad to the American public.

If these individuals are actually mercenaries then, the companies for which they work are responsible for reporting. The US military probably knows little about them at the unit level and I doubt that they are monitored by the military, except as a formality as they enter the country.

It is just an egregious lie that the US would bury US military personnel in umarked graves just to hide the body count. This would be unacceptable to every serviceman from the lowest Private to the highest General in the military. Leaving the dead is unacceptable.

Not even the President could pull this off and there is no reason why he would. Just take a look at the efforts made to find, identify and return all Americans remains to the US from Indochina.

I have to tell you. When your hatred of a politician becomes so intense that you are no longer in touch with reality, you need to do some serious self-reflection.

These allegations, especially by Americans, are disgusting and intolerable and completely unsubstantiated and those who engage in this practice are beyond reprehensible.

As far as the identity or the nationality of these bodies, it is impossible to tell. The tattoo on the one is so common among youth today that it does lead one to believe that they could be American, but it is simply speculation on the part of anyone on this board.

Whatever happened to standing up for one's country? Land of the free, home of the brave, indeed. What a travesty.



[edit on 04/9/27 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott


Whatever happened to standing up for one's country? Land of the free, home of the brave, indeed. What a travesty.


[edit on 04/9/27 by GradyPhilpott]

Grady, that went out the window the day George W Bush told his first lie to us/senate and congress.

We still are the land of the brave,.........................

and your right, it is a travesty that George w Bush and Co., choose to lie and keeps on lying to the citizens of the United States and to our Troops , the United States will never be the same again

Originally posted by nanna_of_6
We still are the land of the brave,.........................

There is little proof of it here.

I think some people here have lost the plot, they are unable to think clearly they're just too biased. Nana for one is farsical any excuse to attack Bush facts or not.
Who's to say these supposedly white bodies aren't Iranians ? It has been reported that Pasdaran has been operating in Iraq and Fallujah.

If these are American bodies ( highly unlikely ) why would they be buried in such a place so as to be easily discovered ?
Nothing makes sense here, except to these whacky conspircist theorists and Bush haters.

If a Chinses body was unearthed would that mean that Chinses Sf are involved in Iraq ?

Originally posted by mad scientist
If these are American bodies ( highly unlikely ) why would they be buried in such a place so as to be easily discovered ?

Special ops dress in native garb and blend with the public. It is dangerous work and if my memory is correct if they are captured in civilian attire, they are pretty much at the mercy of their captors, not that our enemies in Iraq give a hoot about the rules of war or the Geneva Convention. Whoever buried them would not really care if they were eventually found or not.

But the fact remains that we don't know who they are and the site these pictures came from is unreliable to say the least.

All you have to do to get a bunch of responses and thereby points is to post the most ridiculous anti-American conspiracy theory you can imagine. Find some fruitcake websites to fuel the fire and sit back and wait. We have a dozen or so individuals here who do nothing more than jump on every anti-American thread they can find and ignore anything that might substantively incriminate Saint Hanoi John.

That some display the emblems of our most hallowed institutions makes it even more egregious,

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by mad scientist
If these are American bodies ( highly unlikely ) why would they be buried in such a place so as to be easily discovered ?

Special ops dress in native garb and blend with the public. It is dangerous work and if my memory is correct if they are captured in civilian attire, they are pretty much at the mercy of their captors, not that our enemies in Iraq give a hoot about the rules of war or the Geneva Convention. Whoever buried them would not really care if they were eventually found or not.

10-4, I was referring to the people who claim that these bodies were of US servicemen and by buried there by their fellow soldiers.

Originally posted by mad scientist
10-4, I was referring to the people who claim that these bodies were of US servicemen and by buried there by their fellow soldiers.

I agree. If the government is so adept at conspiracies that they could pull off hijacking four aircraft and remotely flying them into major landmarks and centers of business and government, or what have you, and fool everybody but a few "geniuses," surely they could find a way of disposing of these bodies so that no one would ever find them. Remember, Saddam's infamous acid vats are still there waiting to be put to good use.

[edit on 04/9/27 by GradyPhilpott]

No one is saying: we know for sure these photographs show dead Americans.

However, to assume the current administration would NEVER downplay
fatality/casualty numbers is daft.

The war in Iraq was based on a lie. (No WMD have been found, remember?)
That in itself is reason to question the current administration's intentions.

Notice, too, how Bush devotees never address the involuntary recall of 5600 servicemembers which occurred this summer.

If our military is "whoopin" extremists butts (as the Fake Cowboy articulately professes) - why are retired soldiers being shipped off to Iraq?

(And how come we never hear about any missing in action cases?)



























[edit on 27-9-2004 by bushblows]

If the pictures in the link at the beginning of the post are true unaccounted death and they had being exposed to the media sooner or later we will find out who they are, be Americans, foreign fighters, civilian worker.

We just need to keep and eye on the news. I like very much to find what they were doing in a mass grave to begin with.

Originally posted by bushblows


Notice, too, how Bush devotees never address the involuntary recall of 5600 servicemembers which occurred this summer.

If our military is "whoopin" extremists butts (as the Fake Cowboy articulately professes) - why are retired soldiers being shipped off to Iraq?

The military operations are fairly successful it's just a case of not having enough 'boots on the ground' to control the areas. It just isn't possible for the US to control the ground with so few troops. You would need a force of 500 000 or more to be effective in this type of COIN warfare.

Grossly understating the total number of casualties (not including those injured or those who suffer mental problems after the war has finish) is a common tactic which has been used not only by the US but other countries, empires, groups etc for tens if not hundreds of years... part of being at war with someone involves keeping the local populace (in this case US residents) on your side.. otherwise you end up with civil war....and people are going to start complaining if thousands upon thousands of people are killed (on either side really), so yes while I can't really draw any conclusions from those pics, I think the REAL total number of casualties is alot higher than being stated. If the real number of iraqii civilians is ever found out I think alot of people are going to be absolutely disgusted because surely it would easily be far in excess of 10,000.

Also, as alot of people have stated... why recommission retired military combatants unless you are starting to run out of soldiers? I've compared iraq to vietnam numerous times, and this is yet another uncanny similarity between the two. Vietnam = conscription due to dwindling forces. Iraq = recomissioned military personnel, the only logical reason due to dwinling forces...

al-basrah
These bodies[one of which is above] have been buried for a few months only

A few months eh? And already that decayed? What makes these bodies american? People seem to be saying its because of the black body bags.

Here's another image

The tatoo, face and haircut do indeed seem to indicate that this is a non native. The sites claim they are american soldiers, some people are saying they are special ops are actual mercenaries. I'll add that they could be security personnel for some of the companies in iraq. Or why even think that they have anything to do with any military? Why couldnt they merely be civilians? I also notice that none of these sites mentioned what has happened with the bodies, and that they are proclaiming to be insurgency sites. Doesn't seem any reason to beleive these at all. Also, families will notice when someone they know in the military has been killed. They'd notice their not being reported in the kia lists and whatnot. The idea of the US governement secretly disposing of dead soldiers in this way is simply ludicrous, and apparently based on nothing at all, other than what, a tatoo?

People are also citing this as evidence of westerners

Some have noticed that the beer is german and that some US troops were deployed from germany. Problem is, they aren't going to be bringing cases of beer with them. Beer is available in arab countries. Iran, a fundamentalist dictatorship, has large wine growing regions. I can't read the writing on the label very clearly, but it looks like the arabic script. Also note the cigarette butt under it. So were are to beleive that these deceadent americans masquerading as iraqis for god knows what in some sort of black ops style took a break, chugged some brewskis, smoked some ciggies and then were bounced upon by valiant and moral iraqi resistance fighters, or that the US government stripped their bodies of military id, but left their iraqi cover clothes on them, and buried them with bulldozers near the town they were operating, but effed up by leaving cigs and beer bottles around and by burying the bodies so shallow that some residents just stumbled upon them?

This is absurd. Lets take at look at these sites presenting this info, which is what some of the people in the original forum have done.

www.albasrah.net

whois
Registration Service Provided By: 357Hosting
Contact: [email protected]
Visit: www.357hosting.com...

Domain name: albasrah.net

Registrant Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 679
Nieuwegein, Utrecht 3430 AR
NL

Administrative Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 679
Nieuwegein, Utrecht 3430 AR
NL

Technical Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 679
Nieuwegein, Utrecht 3430 AR
NL

Billing Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 679
Nieuwegein, Utrecht 3430 AR
NL

Status: Locked

Name Servers:
NS1.FASTSOLUTIONS.NL
NS2.FASTSOLUTIONS.NL

Creation date: 14 Oct 2002 05:35:03
Expiration date: 14 Oct 2010 05:35:03

An iraqi resistance group based in netherlands eh? I also noticed that the photos are from a different site, abolkhaseb.net

Registration Service Provided By: 357Hosting
Contact: [email protected]
Visit: www.357hosting.com...

Domain name: abolkhaseb.net

Administrative Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 69169
AlQuds, 97917
PS

Billing Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 69169
AlQuds, 97917
PS

Technical Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 69169
AlQuds, 97917
PS

Registrant Contact:
357Hosting
A. R. ([email protected])
+31.848344697
Fax: +31.848344697
P.O. Box 69169
AlQuds, 97917
PS

Status: Locked

Name Servers:
dns1.name-services.com
dns2.name-services.com
dns3.name-services.com
dns4.name-services.com
dns5.name-services.com

Creation date: 17 May 2004 18:01:08
Expiration date: 17 May 2005 18:01:08

I have no idea what 'alquds' is supposed to be, so i looked some of it up.
this site monitors insurgency websites, and notes that 357hosting is infamous for hosting what they are calling 'jihadi' sites. They have another site which has the same whois information as the one above, they state

the creature who runs 357hosting now claims to be in Jerusalem

Now, i also searched on the address and whatnot, and ended up with this

This is actualy quite disconcerting. The addressee wants to collect money, and even has a paypal link to do this. They are using the ct same address, but instead of refering to jerusalem as 'alquds' or whatever they are using the 'acceptable' western name. #e. And this is on msn, in a discussion forum. They are jihadi sites, some (as the monitoring site notes) associated with hizbollah, collecting money, right there, on the internet. They also state that they are a yahoo group, but the link provided states that there is no such group (they claim to be made up of jews who converted to islam, and are trying to convert more. for somereason they call it 'revert'). Meanwhile they are also running these other sites. Simply too fishy. I decided to run some more queries on associated sites.

I googled the poster 'Yousef al Khattab', got as a result "www.jews-for-allah.com/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam/Yousef-al-Khatab.htm" queired the domain, and got

www.jews-for-allah.com/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam/Yousef-al-Contact: [email protected]
Visit:

Domain name: jews-for-allah.com

Administrative Contact:
MNMC
Mohamed Ghounem ([email protected])
+1.8885551212
Fax: +1.8885551212
PO Box 3491
Newtown, CT 06470
US

Nothing or something? A base in the US for this front? Intruiginly, kattib is "Joseph Cohen [who] moved from om the United States to Israel as a devout Jew in 1998, but within three years he had converted to Islam and become Yosef Mohammed Khatib, a supporter of the militant Hamas, according to a report broadcast Thursday on Israel TV." Kattib seems relatively active on webforums also.

on
the conact, Mo Ghounem

source
Ghounem, of Danbury, is the founder of Jews for Allah, whose Web site - jewsforallah.com - "invites" Jews to Islam

It also notes the Ghounem was 'lax' in his religion when younger, but reaffirmed it later, was honourably discharged from the US army, and is a laid off telecom worker.
He's also written some books on the subject. So now one has these guys, operating a site out of the same office as these jihadi sites, also maintaining offices in the US, collecting donations from all over the internet and from books they are selling.

Originally posted by mad scientist
The military operations are fairly successful it's just a case of not having enough 'boots on the ground' to control the areas. It just isn't possible for the US to control the ground with so few troops. You would need a force of 500 000 or more to be effective in this type of COIN warfare.

Is it not dangerous to have only 140,000 soldiers in Iraq, while 500000 is needed? Is it not possible for the small forces overwhelmed by Iraqi Resistance someday, as US troops are crippling everyday, and Iraqi Resistance learning skills and glowing every day?

Is it not wise to bring them HOME to their family, before the defeat? Within 140,000 soldiers there maybe only 30000 are fighting forces, while the rest are assistance forces.

Originally posted by bushblows
No one is saying: we know for sure these photographs show dead Americans.

However, to assume the current administration would NEVER downplay
fatality/casualty numbers is daft.

The problem with your ludicrous statement is that these servicemen have families. Do you think they are not in touch with their loved ones back in the states? While the mail is painfully slow, they do get a chance to email every week or so, and to use telephones on occasion. If families don't hear from their soldiers, they start asking questions.

America is NOT fudging its casualty numbers. To say so is asinine.

These are most likely mercenaries that were whacked by the Iraqi loyalists who are causing problems there now. Remember, mercenaries are scum and they are treated as such, here on earth and when they go to hell.