Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

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Originally posted by milominderbinder
[SNIP]

You're calling someone who is trying to convince you this is wrong a nutcase?

[SNIP]

He/she is my hero.

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Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady

Originally posted by milominderbinder
[SNIP]

You're calling someone who is trying to convince you this is wrong a nutcase?

[SNIP]

He/she is my hero.

Mod Note:15a) Offensive Content: You will not Post forum posts, private messages, PODcasts, blog entries, videos, images, and other supported content, links to images or use avatars and/or signatures that are unlawful, harassing, libelous, privacy invading, abusive, threatening, harmful, hateful, vulgar, obscene, and/or disruptive. You will not use text, images, avatars or link to images or domains that contain gore, mutilation, pornography or illegal content. Doing so will result in removal of your Post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

edit on 30-4-2012 by Gemwolf because: Removed quoted post.Removed graphic image.

No. The term "nutcase" only came into play AFTER a certain yoyo continuously asked for my opinion and then resorted to calling ME names for around 30+ pages worth of threads in ADDITION to insulting me by "praying" for me and pushing/peddling her "god" onto me with the presupposition that her opinions are the "right" ones.

I very nicely and clearly expressed stated four or five times that while I respected her opinions, invoking her "godly" wishes/prayers/hopes/dreams/etc onto me is as offensive me as she would find it if I wished that she "may walk with Satan".

Specifically, I cited that my reasoning for this is that while both are imaginary characters from storybooks...the devotees of Satan worship have undeniably performed far fewer acts of murder, torture, genocide, senseless religious warfare, and the burning of "witches" as have the devotees of the Judeo-Christian "god".

Thus, I find it offensive when people arbitrarily misuse pronouns such as "we" and "us" or express their desires that I "find jesus" so that I can become a devout "believer", much like Adolf Hitler was.

Likewise, I respect your opinion that pro-lifers are your hero's. Good for you. My hero's are the people who do not push their sense of "morality" on others against their will.

Thus, I proposed to yoyo quite a few posts ago that perhaps pro-choice is a fair compromise, given that I do not want to live in a world where legislative decree removes a woman's right to have an abortion anymore than she would enjoy living in a world in which she were FORCED to have abortions against HER will.

Interestingly enough, one side of the debate seems to be quite unwilling to compromise and appears to only value the "freedom of choice" only in as much as it is convenient for them. She wants the freedom to not be coerced INTO having an abortion...but refuses the same freedom when it comes to coercing women OUT of having an abortion. She wants the freedom to flaunt her christianity...but refuses me the freedom of not being constantly evangelized even after I politely requested such four or five times.

Let me guess..."that's different", right?

reply to post by milominderbinder

I proposed to yoyo quite a few posts ago that perhaps pro-choice is a fair compromise,

People should not make compromises on their values. I was chastised by an employer for not giving information to someone about how to access an abortion. It only mattered to her because she did not want to risk losing Title 10 funds for her maternity home. When she said to me: "We must put aside our religious beliefs for the good of the organization." I thought: "Yeah, that this is probably the same argument Adolph Hitler used."

The OP will never accept that Pro-Choice is okay because it makes abortion acceptable. To someone who views abortion as murder there can be no compromise.

You will never change the OP's mind. If you haven't figured that out yet then I guess your goal is to make her look like all the names you called her are accurate.

She speaks for the innocent ones who have no one to speak for them. I agree with her.

You may argue that it is my body, but nobody is talking about ending your life, are they?

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady

The OP will never accept that Pro-Choice is okay because it makes abortion acceptable. To someone who views abortion as murder there can be no compromise.

As a pro-choice, I agree completely with this point. If I viewed abortion as murder, I could not make any compromise as well (and I dont for late-term abortions).

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

Because to someone who views abortion as murder, saying that you should have the freedom to abort or stop pushing his opinions on others only makes you look like some kind of a psychopath advocating freedom to murder.

If this story doesn't make you feel good, I feel sorry for you.

Abortion Survivor Meets Nurse Who Saved Her Life

www.lifenews.com...


Do you think after what she experienced she would ever be Pro-Choice?

Not a chance. If fact she is dedicated to saving lives.
www.melissaohden.com...

I did not read this thread...I am just going to share my point of view. I like "most" of Dr. paul's message...however...he defies the Libertarian movement at this point....

I don't care....no...really....I don't. If a lady feels she is not in the right place in time...she should be fully capable of making that decision....she is ....theoretically speaking....the mother of us all.

How is it ok to dictate this? I totally disagree. I have 3 children...none of them were "planned" but a decision was made and they came into this world. I do not see freedom cloaked anywhere in these discussions....it is an attack on individual liberty. The "powers of the Universe" allowed us the knowledge to make these decisions....now respect it and allow those that want them to happen... happen....Those that want a re-boot...allow that as well.

This is madness...stupid people need to die off and let free thinking people rule the world....your cult minded, antiquated and outdated values have no use here.....

reply to post by Maslo

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

Dr. Ron Paul, former OB-GYN, said "Abortion is a violent crime." If you can convince someone it is not immoral, you are doing something immoral IMO.

"One decision, one single moment, can have such a detrimental impact on so many people, living and dead, born and yet to be conceived."

www.melissaohden.com...

I would much rather work to save lives that hold any responsibility for them being destroyed.

Maslo, the Pro-Lifers are gaining on you.
More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time
www.gallup.com...


www.guttmacher.org...

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I proposed to yoyo quite a few posts ago that perhaps pro-choice is a fair compromise,

People should not make compromises on their values. I was chastised by an employer for not giving information to someone about how to access an abortion. It only mattered to her because she did not want to risk losing Title 10 funds for her maternity home. When she said to me: "We must put aside our religious beliefs for the good of the organization." I thought: "Yeah, that this is probably the same argument Adolph Hitler used."

The OP will never accept that Pro-Choice is okay because it makes abortion acceptable. To someone who views abortion as murder there can be no compromise.

You will never change the OP's mind. If you haven't figured that out yet then I guess your goal is to make her look like all the names you called her are accurate.

She speaks for the innocent ones who have no one to speak for them. I agree with her.

You may argue that it is my body, but nobody is talking about ending your life, are they?

*SIGH*

Read the previous posts. I'm not going to get into the same exact discussion with you that I just had with yoyo. However, NOBODY IS ASKING YOU TO "COMPROMISE YOUR VALUES". Believe what you want. Say what you want. Do whatever it is that you want.

However...YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR "VALUES" ENDS WHERE MY RIGHT TO HAVE DIFFERENT VALUES BEGINS.

If you don't want people pushing Islam, Satanism, and Scientology on you...then I expect the same courtesy when I politely request to be excluded from yoyo's "prayers" and efforts to bring me to jesus or whatever. It's rude and insulting to my intelligence.

Secondly...you think abortion is "murder". Yippee. Good for you. Thus...much as I stated to yoyo...the most the federal government should ever be allowed to say about the matter is that it lies in the domain of states rights given that IT IS THE STATES WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL OTHER VIOLENT CRIMES INCLUDING "MURDER".

However...much as predicted such a common sense and rational approach just isn't good enough for a pro-lifer. Read the posts...yoyo STARTED calling me names 20 pages ago. The hypocrisy is ridiculous.

I'm not trying to change your or yoyo's mind about whatever you believe to be true. However...one only has to look at yoyo's last post to see that she is going to great lengths to change mine.

And yes...YOU SHOULD COMPROMISE YOUR BELIEFS. Especially when your beliefs are so reprehensible to others and they extend that courtesy to you. If you are not willing to compromise on your beliefs...why should I compromise on mine? I compromise on my belief's by not trying to eradicate the memory of any and all organized religions from planet earth.

I BELIEVE that this would be morally correct and in the best interest of humanity...but I agree to permit and tolerate your religion with the understanding that I get the same courtesy back in kind. I BELIEVE that killing an unwanted fetus is merciful euthanasia and that only a sadistic sociopath would bring an unwanted child into this world given the abysmal "life" they "look forward to". However...I am not now, nor will I ever, speak in favor of mandatory abortions being performed on women against their will. Likewise...I think Jack Kevorkian was a great guy...but I do not presume to have the authority to prevent you from suffering for years and years with a terminal illness in misery and agony for the betterment of a big pharma's quarterly stock reports if you feel that your "god" wants you to do so.

In fact, I'll even COMPROMISE MY BELIEFS and agree to use (*GASP*) MEDICARE DOLLARS OBTAINED VIA FEDERAL TAXATION for keeping the pain-riddled husk of your former self alive, should it be your wish. However...if you want to live in the United States and simultaneously think you "deserve" medicare or social security...it's a two-way street. You will just have to get used to the idea that other people with a different set values and beliefs might expect to use your federal tax dollars for medical procedures which you are not keen on.

In short... treat others as you wish to be treated. If you do not want to be required by law to adhere to my secular values, then don't require me by law to adhere to your religious values. Likewise, having been born an unwanted child myself, I can proudly support aborting any and all unwanted pregnancies as it is the way I myself wish I had been treated when I was in utero.

We send people who run puppy mills to prison for breeding too many unwanted and uncared for puppies...but there is no end to the cruelty we will force upon human children.

If you want to be permitted to have your beliefs, you must also permit others to have the same.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by Maslo

 

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

Dr. Ron Paul, former OB-GYN, said "Abortion is a violent crime." If you can convince someone it is not immoral, you are doing something immoral IMO.

"One decision, one single moment, can have such a detrimental impact on so many people, living and dead, born and yet to be conceived."

www.melissaohden.com...

I would much rather work to save lives that hold any responsibility for them being destroyed.

Maslo, the Pro-Lifers are gaining on you.
More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time
www.gallup.com...


www.guttmacher.org...

tis is where we part ways....freedom is freedom and he is a lieing f'er....he knows the Libertarian point of view...

you do with your body that which you feel is best for you....

He is tryng to play the Republican card till he can't...I guess he has a bitof Romney in there....I will say what i need to say"....

Romney is a monster of doom....

Ron Paul is a trickish little imp that is part libertarian, part conservative and a touch of Liberal in there....he IS the lesser of evils....but we need to pin the doctor down on a few key issues....

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
If this story doesn't make you feel good, I feel sorry for you.

Abortion Survivor Meets Nurse Who Saved Her Life

www.lifenews.com...


Do you think after what she experienced she would ever be Pro-Choice?

Not a chance. If fact she is dedicated to saving lives.
www.melissaohden.com...

I really don't care if she would be pro-choice, pro-life, or pro-abortion.

Do you think a kid was "saved" and then resented, abused, and neglected by his drug addict parents or bounced around to 20 different foster homes feels like they "had a chance at happiness" or whatever?

Don't get me wrong. It's a touching story and I'm glad it worked out for her...but to pretend we live in a make-believe world where this is more common than living a pretty miserable existence is just plain delusional.
The prisons are filled with adults who were born to parents who didn't want them. So are the methadone clinics, brothels, alleys, and street gangs. Same with the vast majority of all those pictures of missing and runaway kids up at the post office and walmart. For every kidnapped Elizabeth Smart you have about 20-30 kids running away from abuse...perhaps even a lot more than that.

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by Maslo

 

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

Dr. Ron Paul, former OB-GYN, said "Abortion is a violent crime." If you can convince someone it is not immoral, you are doing something immoral IMO.

"One decision, one single moment, can have such a detrimental impact on so many people, living and dead, born and yet to be conceived."

www.melissaohden.com...

I would much rather work to save lives that hold any responsibility for them being destroyed.

Maslo, the Pro-Lifers are gaining on you.
More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time
www.gallup.com...


www.guttmacher.org...

So let me ask you then... is IVF also "murder"?

reply to post by milominderbinder


Yep.

Not one of the prolifers really want to comment on the ivf lives being washed down the sinks of the ivf clinic,

They'd potentially have to openly admit the hypocrisy of their ideals.

If life begins at absolute conception, then ivf is murder.

However, if 'life' begins at a set point further into the gestational period, then ivf 'casualties' are acceptable and so is early term abortion.

That would rain on their parade.

Haven't seen yoyoyo for a while, perhaps he or she is picketing the local ivf clinic.

Originally posted by Damrod

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
reply to post by Maslo

 

Thats why I think the key to abortion debate is to convince the opponent that abortion is completely different from murder and is not an immoral act in itself.

Dr. Ron Paul, former OB-GYN, said "Abortion is a violent crime." If you can convince someone it is not immoral, you are doing something immoral IMO.

"One decision, one single moment, can have such a detrimental impact on so many people, living and dead, born and yet to be conceived."

www.melissaohden.com...

I would much rather work to save lives that hold any responsibility for them being destroyed.

Maslo, the Pro-Lifers are gaining on you.
More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time
www.gallup.com...


www.guttmacher.org...

tis is where we part ways....freedom is freedom and he is a lieing f'er....he knows the Libertarian point of view...

you do with your body that which you feel is best for you....

He is tryng to play the Republican card till he can't...I guess he has a bitof Romney in there....I will say what i need to say"....

Romney is a monster of doom....

Ron Paul is a trickish little imp that is part libertarian, part conservative and a touch of Liberal in there....he IS the lesser of evils....but we need to pin the doctor down on a few key issues....

I'm an ardent Ron Paul supporter.

Abortion is one of the VERY few issues I disagree with him on...however in my opinion anyone who picks a candidate based upon their views of reproductive issues is cognitively impaired.

From a PRAGMATIC standpoint, Ron Paul's assertion that it's a matter of states rights is not only both logically and lawfully correct as even "murder" is in the realm of the states...but it's also a pretty practical one.

Let's face it...nobody is ever going to convince Alabama or Mississippi that abortion is good for parent, fetus, and society alike, right? Great. Then we can just let every state do whatever we want and focus our national attention upon something that actually matters...like ending the Federal Reserve.

In my opinion long-term economic decline, the devaluation of the dollar, exponentially increasing costs of energy, and 40+ years of senseless warfare are much more responsible for an increase in abortions than Roe v. Wade anyways.

Perhaps if the country isn't such a rotting, festering, impoverished, crumbling, hellscape then more people might actually WANT to raise their fetus.

This seems like a much more sane, rational, and wise approach to me.

Originally posted by selfharmonise
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Yep.

Not one of the prolifers really want to comment on the ivf lives being washed down the sinks of the ivf clinic,

They'd potentially have to openly admit the hypocrisy of their ideals.

If life begins at absolute conception, then ivf is murder.

However, if 'life' begins at a set point further into the gestational period, then ivf 'casualties' are acceptable and so is early term abortion.

That would rain on their parade.

Haven't seen yoyoyo for a while, perhaps he or she is picketing the local ivf clinic.

hehehehe

Of course. The rules of the abortion debate are simply that the pro-life side has no rules. They can contradict themselves and be as hypocritical as they want because they think they have a magical telephone line to god or whatever.

Federal $ for abortions is blasphemy...but it's OK to use federal money to "murder" a couple hundred thousand innocent iraqi civillians. An aborted fetus is "disgusting" but the 1000%+ spike in mutated depleted uranium babies in the Middle East is just "collateral damage" or "god's will" or some such nonsense. It's OK to call you "evil" and "heartless" but you aren't supposed to call them clueless or foolish for believing in talking snakes. It's OK for them to hope and wish that you "find god"...but they take offense when you wish that they "lose god". Saying "Happy Holidays" is a War on Christmas...but where the hell Chomsky-Mas for all of us secular humanists?

As always..."that's different", right?

reply to post by milominderbinder


Oh...regarding yoyo.

Yeah...I'm thinking she's either protesting an IVF clinic or was raptured.

It figure both are equally probable and plausible.

reply to post by milominderbinder

We send people who run puppy mills to prison for breeding too many unwanted and uncared for puppies...but there is no end to the cruelty we will force upon human children.

Funny you should bring up puppies. I was just remembering when I was young my friend laughed because their dog had an abortion. That was prior to Roe v Wade. I didn't laugh, I thought it was horrible. Why shouldn't cute little puppies get a chance to live, just because their owner didn't want the hassle of taking care of them? Now we've gotten to that point with humans. If you are arguing that abortion is OK because there is child abuse. I really think two wrongs don't make a right. Abortion is the ultimate child abuse, it's taking a life.

If you want to be permitted to have your beliefs, you must also permit others to have the same.

You are on a thread someone started about their opinion and you come here to change her beliefs, yet you are offended that she is doing the same to you?


Nobody can change your beliefs. You have a mind to figure weigh wrong from right. You don't need a permission slip to believe something. Your conscious is your business. If you haven't spoken your peace by now, what are you doing here, trying to change somebody's mind?

Walk away if you are trying to change her mind, you will not. If you want to argue stick around.

Do you need to hear someone tell you they had an abortion and felt is was the worse mistake they ever made and they feel terrible about it? Would that make a difference?

I never met a any woman who wished she would have aborted her child, but as a counselor, it know scarred women who carry a tremendous burden of guilt that they snuffed out of life. Talk to ministers and counselors if you think I am making this up. They need to feel forgiven and there is only one who can do that, God.

If I dare bring God into this then you call us a cult? Well, so be it. "Thou shall not kill." You don't believe in God? I do. That's life. God, the author of life has spoken and its not me you are urinating on when you ignore His words.

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


Women go to counsellors when and if they need to. Therefore the population group on which you base your opinions is unfairly skewed.

The women you see are not wholly representative of every woman who as had an abortion.

Just because I have met one Frenchman who was rude to me, does not make all French people rude.

I know women who have felt their circumstances forced them to choose abortion. They would make the same decision if faced with those circumstances again.

It does not keep them awake at night.

Neither should it.

How do you feel about discarded, fertilised embryos in ivf clinics?

I would like to draw everyone's attention to an excellent, balanced and informative article.


www.religioustolerance.org...

Eye opening.