Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

Abortion is not synonymous with murder, no matter how many times people say it is. It is a medical term. It may involve a medical procedure in which a pregnancy is terminated. It may involve a natural termination. If you have had a miscarriage, and your doctor is aware of it, your medical record states that you have had an abortion.

(Full disclosure; I haven't dealt with medical records in 15 years. Terminology may have changed. But I very sincerely doubt it.)

It would challenging and broadening to discuss human embriological development, and at what stage we can reasonably say "Okay, this is a human now". But we can't. Fundie McBiblethumper will leap on every conversation and very effectively derail it with his/her pseudocertainty of Right and Wrong.

Thank Ba'al we had the conversation at the highest legal levels back when we could.

I think when this topic is being discussed on the news or by politicians they need to be a bit more precise about what they're talking about.

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Too many times when I turn on the T.V. and hear people talking about this I hear them throw words around that they don't seem to understand. And above all else people need to stop interjecting their personal opinions about what the word means if they're trying to get technical about it to resolve an issue.

Abortion being a "medical" procedure makes us look like we're in the stone age...

Who kills the unborn intentionally , Only people that our disillusioned and completely lost...

To say abortion is "medical" is a lie. Only thing "medical" about it is it's done by a doctor.

Doctor's jobs are to save lives not end them...

reply to post by yoyoyoyo


uh, where's the RON PAUL part????

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I'm talking about the God that gave you life, And you my friend are filled with hate...

No "god" gave me life. Rather, there was a series of biochemical reactions in which certain enzymes "unzipped" two double-helix strands of DNA so that they might recombine in a somewhat different arrangement. This is the same process we can witness in tepid pools of standing water...there's nothing "magical" about it.

Why am I "filled with hate"? Because I don't believe precisely what you believe? Because I am equally offended at you including me into your "god" nonsense as you would be if a Satanist arbitrarily included you in their faith?

God smiles upon us, He's the one that we serve. This life isn't about us, but about everyone...

. Again...speak for yourself and leave me out of it. I do not serve any god. In fact, I reject "god". Not only because it's an incoherent belief system steeped in superstition...but ALSO because on the outside chance there really IS such an all-powerful, all-knowing deity who on multiple occasions purportedly wiped out entire populations in a genocidal rampage and willfully permits this sort of suffering to continue on earth...I quite frankly plan telling him to go to hell as soon as I see him in this "afterlife" you believe in. In fact...I wonder if incorporeal being is capable of hiding a shank in the sleeves of my angel's outfit or whatever...if so..."god" better watch his ass when I get there.

When you hurt someone your only hurting yourself. So when you kill someone your only killing yourself.

. Yet...you have no problem forcing any amount of suffering onto a child who's very existence is considered an accident, mistake, inconvenience, and burden.

I'm bringing multi verse into it... I guess...

Ahhh yes...the lady who does not understand the 80yr+ old notion that time is non-linear is going to invoke the most cutting edge and incredibly complex ideas about cosmology, which even the world's most brilliant minds such Stephen Hawking and the scientists at CERN can barely wrap their heads around.

Stick to the Green Lantern movie...somehow it's actually less ridiculous than listening to you misspell the word "multiverse" in an argument.

I know I have good intentions. What about you?

Your "intentions" are anything but "good". Thus far, all you have "intended" to do was callously dismiss anybody who has a differing viewpoint than your own, minimize the suffering of others in order to propagate your misunderstandings of the religious text your purport to "believe" in but have clearly never read, and then resort to petty name-calling and labeling people who disagree with you as "evil".

You make me ashamed to be human.

Originally posted by doryinaz
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

uh, where's the RON PAUL part????

hehehehe...that ship left long ago.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
Abortion being a "medical" procedure makes us look like we're in the stone age...

Who kills the unborn intentionally , Only people that our disillusioned and completely lost...

To say abortion is "medical" is a lie. Only thing "medical" about it is it's done by a doctor.

Doctor's jobs are to save lives not end them...

Actually...allowing decisions about the law, science, and public life to be guided by superstition makes us look like we are in the stone age.

Furthermore...it wasn't Doctor Jack Kevorkian's job to "save" lives...was it? All I'm asking is that we apply at least the same level of humane treatment which a veterinarian gives dogs and horses. I just think it's morally reprehensible to force people to endure conditions that we consider cruel for household pets or cattle.

reply to post by doryinaz


The Ron Paul part is he opposes row vs wade and want's it left up to the states...

That's a + first step. IMO

Get the federal government out of killing our unborn brothers and sisters.

reply to post by milominderbinder


Ashamed to be human you say...

And I make you feel that way...

I believe you already felt that way before I came into the picture...

No matter what you say you think it's ok to end human life, and I don't ...

That's the bottom line. Which is right and which is wrong.... Taking a human life, because you don't think the standard for human living is met, Is a moot argument. IMO

I'd take life over abortion. At least I can feel and see and a whole host of other things for myself.

And to think there is no Good and Evil in this world , is being naive... IMO

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by doryinaz

 

The Ron Paul part is he opposes row vs wade and want's it left up to the states...

That's a + first step. IMO

Get the federal government out of killing our unborn brothers and sisters.

Oddly enough...I do agree with you that it is an issue of states rights. Not because there is anything wrong with abortion...but simply because so long as it's a federal issue we are doomed to keep reliving such an insignificant issue.

The bottom line is that you are living proof that pro-lifers who are drunk with delusional righteousness which they feel has been imparted to them via osmosis by supernatural forces simply CANNOT be reasoned with.

But just to clarify...you are in favor of "states rights" right now because it supports your ideology, correct? As soon as each state could decide for itself on the abortion issue you would be all in favor of outlawing in all 50 states as well as US Protectorates...correct? Likewise, I am surmising that you would have serious problems with a state legalizing any and all drugs, right?

Something tells me that REALLY the only thing you "believe" is that you feel that you should be able to push your #ty "god" and bass ackwards sense of "morality" on others.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Ashamed to be human you say...

And I make you feel that way...

I believe you already felt that way before I came into the picture...

Well...you also "believe" that a long time ago a magical jewish zombie who was his own father and had a penchant for cabinet-making used to run around in the desert healing lepers and multiplying fish with his mind. Thus...I suppose we shouldn't really put much credence in your "beliefs", should we?

No matter what you say you think it's ok to end human life, and I don't ...

Cool...that's what makes the world go around. No big deal. See how that works? I didn't even have to tell you that you are "evil" or advocate legislation which REQUIRES you to have at least one abortion in your lifetime. I just ask the same courtesy that you do the same and not legislate your morality upon me. That's called "Pro-choice"...and it seems perfectly fair to me.

That's the bottom line. Which is right and which is wrong.... Taking a human life, because you don't think the standard for human living is met, Is a moot argument. IMO

.
Again...it's not about a standard for human living...it's about making sure that at a minimum we do not treat our fellow humans worse than animals. If running a puppy mill is a felony because it's cruel to produce so many unwanted dogs who simply do not have homes where they are wanted and cared for...then I think we ought to at least be as humane with actual people and allow the mother to decide for herself if she is willing or capable of raising said child.

I'd take life over abortion. At least I can feel and see and a whole host of other things for myself.

Hmmmm...spoken just like someone who has never "at least" felt what it's like to grow up missing more meals than you eat, had the pleasure of "having a chance" of being rejected by five or six foster families who ultimately decide to adopt a retriever instead of a human, or were "lucky enough" to learn self-reliance at the age of fifteen when living on the streets was preferable to dealing with another set hypocritical suburbanite wanna-be do-gooders are just convinced that an adopted child is this season's must-have fashion accessory.

And to think there is no Good and Evil in this world , is being naive... IMO

There is a lot of good and evil in this world. Note the lower-case letters.

reply to post by milominderbinder


Why do you argue with me and put words in my mouth???

To promote the killing of the unborn?

I'm just trying to get at what keep's you coming back with such gibber jabber.

You believe this is women's rights, is that what it is?

Originally posted by milominderbinder
Actually...allowing decisions about the law, science, and public life to be guided by superstition makes us look like we are in the stone age.

Yep, simply saying you believe a zygote embryo or fetus has the same ontic and moral value as a newborn has consistently failed to overturn Roe V Wade. No one actually believes a zygote is really a baby, not even pro-lifers.

Despite claiming that, they ignore those same "little babies" in IVF clinics. They don't really believe what they say, they just want to criminalize abortion.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Why do you argue with me and put words in my mouth???

To promote the killing of the unborn?

I'm just trying to get at what keep's you coming back with such gibber jabber.

You believe this is women's rights, is that what it is?

I'm sorry, but if I was guilty of putting words in your mouth...your posts would be much more coherent.

Originally posted by igor_ats

Originally posted by milominderbinder
Actually...allowing decisions about the law, science, and public life to be guided by superstition makes us look like we are in the stone age.

Yep, simply saying you believe a zygote embryo or fetus has the same ontic and moral value as a newborn has consistently failed to overturn Roe V Wade. No one actually believes a zygote is really a baby, not even pro-lifers.

Despite claiming that, they ignore those same "little babies" in IVF clinics. They don't really believe what they say, they just want to criminalize abortion.

Precisely. They just regurgitate whatever the TV evangelist tells them to think.

1% of births per year in America (approx. 50,000) are IVF with a national of average of 5 prior failed IVF attempts before a successful birth. That means that IVF "murders" 250,000 "babies" per year.

So...where's the outrage?

reply to post by milominderbinder


No one is advocating IVF in this thread...

Just to let you know...

Lastly I still think your lying to yourself, I mean why would you even argue this?

Have you had an abortion and your happy about it?? Is that what this is about?

Ivor and Milo,

The point you make on reproductive methods where eggs are fertilised through direct intervention - and many are discarded - is absolutely right.

If life begins ABSOLUTELY at fertilisation - as the prolifers believe - then this is just as much a "murder" as an abortion.

I never thought of that aspect at all - thanks for a rational parallel.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

No one is advocating IVF in this thread...

Just to let you know...

Lastly I still think your lying to yourself, I mean why would you even argue this?

Have you had an abortion and your happy about it?? Is that what this is about?

Given that I am a male, no...I have not had an abortion.

...and yes I realize that no one is advocating IVF in this thread. Much like the other 10 or 20 times I pointed out your hypocrisy I am not at all surprised that simply evade reconciling the inconsistencies of your beliefs and excuse them away with more accusatory and unsubstantiated opinions about others.

Originally posted by selfharmonise
Ivor and Milo,

The point you make on reproductive methods where eggs are fertilised through direct intervention - and many are discarded - is absolutely right.

If life begins ABSOLUTELY at fertilisation - as the prolifers believe - then this is just as much a "murder" as an abortion.

I never thought of that aspect at all - thanks for a rational parallel.

you bet. Although I gotta give props to Ivor for bringing it up first in this thread.

I think the big reason the pro-lifers don't have a problem with IVF is mostly because wealthy frigid, barren, middle-aged women and impotent, balding, bible-thumping men can benefit from it whilst simultaneously criticizing and belittling others for doing the same.

reply to post by milominderbinder


Well you support baby killing...

Point is clear as the sky on a bright and sunny day.

May you realize your errors in your ways, and may you change for the better...

That being pro-life.