Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

reply to post by ~Vixen~


Hi vix,
Thank you for your well rounded reply. Willingness to find answer rather than condemn.
Not to be argumentative but to be more understanding. Could you handle me asking you this?
From what you said that makes two of us that haven't had the procedure.
If I told you at least three women in my life have terminated my children and the latest still cries in agony because when the doctor ripped the first of the twins out the pain was so intolerable that she swears that when the doctor went back for the other it knew and held on for dear life. That was until it came out in the doctors hand like a blob of chit lens. She will never recover. I tremble as I type.
How do you council some one in these matters. Vacumes don't always work.
humbly ljb
PS no matter how you cut it I am out four children.

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

Hi vix,
Thank you for your well rounded reply. Willingness to find answer rather than condemn.
Not to be argumentative but to be more understanding. Could you handle me asking you this?
From what you said that makes two of us that haven't had the procedure.
If I told you at least three women in my life have terminated my children and the latest still cries in agony because when the doctor ripped the first of the twins out the pain was so intolerable that she swears that when the doctor went back for the other it knew and held on for dear life. That was until it came out in the doctors hand like a blob of chit lens. She will never recover. I tremble as I type.
How do you council some one in these matters. Vacumes don't always work.
humbly ljb
PS no matter how you cut it I am out four children.

My heart truly goes out to you for the torment that you must face.

What you describe is certainly atypical, and runs counter to all that I know about the procedure. It sounds overly dramatic, but sometimes psychological trauma associated with such procedures can cause the patient to perceive things differently than what may have actually occurred. Provided all legal restrictions and medical ethics guidelines were adhered to, I give little credence to the accuracy of that account. I'm NOT saying that she's lying, but rather that the trauma may have altered her perception and reality of the incident. She believes that it happened, but there's little or no proof to substantiate the claim.

People like that require extensive counseling to overcome their guilt. Many women do. It just reinforces my statement that this isn't something that women take lightly and do on a whim, and that women need support in these times rather than condemnation and ridicule.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
thinkprogress.org...
Abortion in general is disgusting, I believe it should only be considered if a women was raped or her life was in danger. GO RON PAUL!

Ron Paul claims to have been an OB/GYN yet his claims regarding the necessity of abortion to save the life of the mother ignore and even disclaim known medical conditions in which abortion is in fact necessary to save the life of the mother as shown below:

As I trained to practice medicine, I became convinced without a doubt that life begins at the moment of conception. I never performed an abortion, and I never once found an abortion necessary to save the life of the mother.

Ron Paul Statement of Faith

As an OB/GYN who delivered over 4,000 babies, Ron Paul knows firsthand how precious, fragile, and in need of protection life is. ...... After being forced to witness an abortion being performed during his time in medical school, he knew from that moment on that his practice would focus on protecting life. And during his years in medicine, never once did he find an abortion necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman.

Ron Paul the Issues - Abortion

Abortion is frequently justified as a method for the mother to end or avoid various diseases. This argument is grossly exaggerated and was only a subterfuge used by the promoters of abortion to remove the legal restraints against performing abortions. In delivering nearly 4,000 babies, I personally never came across a need even to entertain the thought of therapeutic abortion for the health of the mother, nor can I imagine the story book case of the doctor being forced into a crisis and making a decision of whose life to spare—mother or baby. Such distorted medical views have come from poorly researched movies on the subject. The state of pregnancy is natural; it’s not a disease; and it is complimentary to both fetus and mother. Most of the time it’s a delightful period for the mother and she feels better than at any other time in her life.

Ron Paul Abortion and Liberty

There are 2 specific and well known pregnancy complications that would in fact result in a situation in which an abortion would be required to save the mother's life. The more common of the 2 is an Ectopic Pregnancy, in this situation the fertilized egg implants in the fallopian tube rather than the uterus, the fallopian tube does not have the elasticity of the uterus and although the fertilized egg while in the fallopian tube will never be able to progress to viability the fertilized egg can continue to grow and eventually rupture the fallopian tube resulting in maternal fatality. Note: Ectopic Pregnancy can also occur in the ovary, the cervix, or the abdomen. Statistically Ectopic Pregnancies occur in 2 out of every 1000 pregnancies. The lesser common of the 2 occurring statistically in 1 out of every 1000 pregnancies is a Molar Pregnancy. In this situation due to problems with the genetic information of either the egg or the sperm. Although the tissue will continue to grow it cannot develop into a fetus. Initial symptoms are similar to a normal pregnancy and unusual symptoms can develop but these also can be associated with a normal pregnancy, multiple pregnancy, or miscarriage. This can be diagnosed by pelvic exam, ultrasound or blood tests to measure pregnancy hormones. Once diagnosed the tissue needs to be removed quickly to prevent maternal fatality. Even after the tissue has been removed it can continue to grow leading to trophoblastic disease, in a small number of cases this can also lead to cancer.

I find it dangerous that he is claiming medical expertise as an OB/GYN while denouncing well known medically proven situations, in which it is necessary to abort a pregnancy to prevent maternal fatality.

These are two well known examples, there are in fact other lesser known, less common complications in which a normal seeming pregnancy can place the mother at an extreme risk of maternal fatality. One complication that I am personally acquainted with, as it effects my niece consistently, although the medical experts she has seen cannot determine why it occurs, upon becoming pregnant her body ceases to produce platelets, for her to carry a pregnancy full term would require her to receive ongoing platelet transfusions throughout the pregnancy, or risk bleeding to death.

Piers Morgan pressed Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) on the question of abortion in the case of rape Friday in an interview on CNN. Morgan asked the Republican presidential candidate whether he thought that, if one of his daughters were raped and impregnated, she should carry the baby to term. Paul responded, "No. If it's an honest rape, that individual should go immediately to the emergency room. I would give them a shot of estrogen or give them..." Morgan interjected, "You would allow them to abort the baby?"

Ron Paul Pressed On Abortion In The Case Of Rape

I was pleased that he would consider abortion acceptable in the case of rape, but he then goes on to show that he has no comprehension of how the trauma of being raped can effect people, especially younger victims of rape who often find it difficult to talk about what has happened to them and as a result are unable to go immediately to an emergency room.

Earlier in the thread I saw someone had asked what determined viability, Viability is determined by the point at which the fetus is able survive outside of the womb, this can be read to include life saving neo-natal intensive care depending on the condition of the fetus at the time of birth. The general rule if I recall correctly is at 24 weeks gestation, but with medical advances some premature births have survived even earlier. I believe the earliest surviving premature birth last I read occurred at 21.5 weeks gestation, the exact time frame was known as she was conceived via artificial insemination so they knew the exact date her mother became pregnant with her, rather than basing the time frame on the date of the mothers last menstrual period.

reply to post by yoyoyoyo

Showing no respect for human life when we are human ourselves shows where we are as a species.

In the gutter, confused and cold.

Other species self regulate their numbers, in much less "humane" ways, in herbivore populations, the old and the sick are left on the edges of the herd to be taken by predators, in carnivore pack species, undesirable individuals are kicked out of the pack. In many species the mothers will eat young that are to weak or sick to survive.

with nearly 7 billion people on this planet, again, we aren't an endangered species. Fact is, as an animal on this planet we are grossly overpopulated.

Abortion clinics only target the poor and minorities. It's pretty obvious.

No they don't, that's a gross misinterpretation.

TPTB will murder who they need to and continue the war on the unborn for their demon worshipping.

reply to post by longjohnbritches

So every time you are getting some, Your brain screams come ,come on PARASITES???
come again????

Just calling it as I see it. Till the fetus is able to live outside the womb on it's own, all it is, is a parasite. Sure, it has the potential to be human, but till it can live outside it's host, it's a parasite. Not all parasites are bad, understand, you have many parasites on you and in you right now that are actually very beneficial to your very survival.

reply to post by yoyoyoyo

Yes there's a choice to murder.

Humans do it everyday.

Yes we know your pro-murder. And to compare our unborn to microbes is sad...

Well, to be honest, yes, I am pro murder, but pro murder and pro choice are two different things. I don't really discriminate between a fetus and a fully formed adult human. See, it's not up to me whether or not a woman chooses to carry the parasite to term and let it develop into a human. It's up to her.

Way to justify the war on the unborn. We know where your mind is. In a different galaxy.
Stop the war on the unborn, save your brothers and sisters. Get the federal government out of the war on the unborn. We can bring change. All we have to do is educate each other and we will open each others eyes. Keep an open mind if you can and you will see the war on the unborn is not just or right.

Again, my family tree is not a pole. They aren't my brothers or sisters. I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in a persons right to choose for themselves.

There is no war on the unborn. There is choice. Forcing a person to carry to term a fetus they cannot take care of is not just or right either. Now, abortion isn't the only choice for such a woman, there is also adoption, which is in my opinion a better choice, but it still boils down to a choice, and it's not my place to force upon someone else a choice they don't want. and it shouldn't be the governments place either. Choice is freedom, freedom is why this country was founded. To eliminate all choice from a woman, is not right.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


Hi vix thanks again.
I do hope that advice gets administered on the front end more and less on the after.
We are all in this together. Kudos to all that want to make it better rather than bitter.
the best ljb
PS Ron Paul would make a fine POTUS, but....

Originally posted by Pixiefyre

Piers Morgan pressed Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) on the question of abortion in the case of rape Friday in an interview on CNN. Morgan asked the Republican presidential candidate whether he thought that, if one of his daughters were raped and impregnated, she should carry the baby to term. Paul responded, "No. If it's an honest rape, that individual should go immediately to the emergency room. I would give them a shot of estrogen or give them..." Morgan interjected, "You would allow them to abort the baby?"

Ron Paul Pressed On Abortion In The Case Of Rape

I was pleased that he would consider abortion acceptable in the case of rape, but he then goes on to show that he has no comprehension of how the trauma of being raped can effect people, especially younger victims of rape who often find it difficult to talk about what has happened to them and as a result are unable to go immediately to an emergency room.

Earlier in the thread I saw someone had asked what determined viability, Viability is determined by the point at which the fetus is able survive outside of the womb, this can be read to include life saving neo-natal intensive care depending on the condition of the fetus at the time of birth. The general rule if I recall correctly is at 24 weeks gestation, but with medical advances some premature births have survived even earlier. I believe the earliest surviving premature birth last I read occurred at 21.5 weeks gestation, the exact time frame was known as she was conceived via artificial insemination so they knew the exact date her mother became pregnant with her, rather than basing the time frame on the date of the mothers last menstrual period.

edit on 4/14/12 by Pixiefyre because: (no reason given)

Hi all,
Not sure who said what when.
I think what Ron Paul was saying to Piers is if you get raped get a doctor to inject spermicide to prevent conception. You need to do this quickly
He added HONEST RAPE I believe to make a distinction between a female that gets pregnant for other reasons.No way did he say abort.
cheers ljb

reply to post by HauntWok


Independent Voter
"Just calling it as I see it. Till the fetus is able to live outside the womb on it's own, all it is, is a parasite. Sure, it has the potential to be human, but till it can live outside it's host, it's a parasite. Not all parasites are bad, understand, you have many parasites on you and in you right now that are actually very beneficial to your very survival."


So you won't mind if I address you as "Liberated Parasite" on the boards??? Instead of independent voter?
btw we don't abort all those parasites do we.?

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

Well thats debatable. Is Killing a human right or wrong, or is it just a matter of opinion. Its what this is all about really. Generally speaking of course. Its wrong to kill based on the situation, was it self defense, was it premeditated. I dunno, ask yourself. Do you think murder being wrong is a matter of opinion, seriously?

of course it's an opinion...self defense, stand your ground, war, perscription drug fatalities, illegal drug overdoses, cops shooting unarmed people, death penalty...etc.
it all depends on who is expendable...remember this, afghanistan is where the taliban people are born, raised, and live, it's their home....hardly any of them have anything to do with terrorism

Your just changing the subject to war, punishment, and criminal behavior. Your suggesting murder being wrong is an opinion. Straight out murder, right or wrong, or an opinion?

War is murder.

reply to post by milominderbinder

War is murder.

War is placing people in harm's way to murder and maybe lose their life.

Abortion is just plain murder with radical feminists saying it's a "medical" advancement. Who is it a medical advancement for women or the demons that love taking the innocent from our planet and sucking in the greed and hate energy.

Watch green lantern for an interpretation of what I'm talking about. This is real... The war on the unborn is intentional and women are being deceived into thinking it's "pro-choice" and a "medical" advancement.

It's population control as well... Hey and thanks to the poster that brought Ron Paul's stance to the thread in a concise manner. It is well appreciated, Thank you my friend.

reply to post by longjohnbritches

Hi all,
Not sure who said what when.
I think what Ron Paul was saying to Piers is if you get raped get a doctor to inject spermicide to prevent conception. You need to do this quickly
He added HONEST RAPE I believe to make a distinction between a female that gets pregnant for other reasons.No way did he say abort.
cheers ljb

LOL. Not spermicide silly. It's too late for that. Dr Paul said he would give the victim a shot of estrogyn. Estrogyn will prevent the fertilized egg to implant in the uterus, therefore abort.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

Hi all,
Not sure who said what when.
I think what Ron Paul was saying to Piers is if you get raped get a doctor to inject spermicide to prevent conception. You need to do this quickly
He added HONEST RAPE I believe to make a distinction between a female that gets pregnant for other reasons.No way did he say abort.
cheers ljb

LOL. Not spermicide silly. It's too late for that. Dr Paul said he would give the victim a shot of estrogyn. Estrogyn will prevent the fertilized egg to implant in the uterus, therefore abort.

Thanks windword.

Doesn't this action of the estreogen shot act an an abortive to the " fertilised egg"....which to all the radical pro-lifers on this board, is a 'sacred life'....

Doesn't this fly in the face of the sanctity of life act, and is effectively an early stage abortion.....

For all those that believe that life begins at fertilisation, if this is true, then the prolife poster boy has clay feet.

reply to post by selfharmonise


It's a life at conception.

Ron Paul has no choice but, to concede to radical feminists otherwise he'd look like a radical himself with no middle ground especially on the issue of rape.

Rape accounts for less than 1% of abortions. 30% of rape claims are false...

The other 99% are women that think their "medical" procedure is not killing their unborn child , but just removing an unwanted pregnancy.

It's murder of the unborn... We are over 50 million now and we will be hitting that 100 million mark soon enough.

War on the unborn continues, and people are blinded to think it's a "medical" practice.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by selfharmonise

 

It's a life at conception.

Ron Paul has no choice but, to concede to radical feminists otherwise he'd look like a radical himself with no middle ground especially on the issue of rape.

Rape accounts for less than 1% of abortions. 30% of rape claims are false...

The other 99% are women that think their "medical" procedure is not killing their unborn child , but just removing an unwanted pregnancy.

It's murder of the unborn... We are over 50 million now and we will be hitting that 100 million mark soon enough.

War on the unborn continues, and people are blinded to think it's a "medical" practice.

So your point is....

What?

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by selfharmonise

 

"The hypocrisy of some moral standpoints is mindblowing. "
Your telling us this while you continue to advocate for the war on the unborn.

"Overpopulation is one of the greatest risks facing the world. "
Wrong, another attempt at trying to justify the war on the unborn.

"We're human, we make mistakes. If your friend was strong enough to have an abortion because she was too weak to stop drinking, then she knew she was not fit to care for a child. I admire her. "
You admire an alcoholic that had an abortion... Utter trash.

"I refuse to judge any woman for having an abortion. "
Yes we know you support the war on the unborn.

"My family foster children who come from abusive homes. Often the children are developmentally stunted by their mother's alcohol or drug abuse, or purely because of the lack of interaction their families give them in their very early years. "
So because of these circumstances we should continue the war on the unborn... Twisted mentality.

"I dont think any one person on this thread wants the abortion rate to increase. Across the thread the prolife and prochoice common ground has pointed to the fact that we would all like to see the number of abortions reduced. "
If your pro-abortion there is no common ground. Your pro war on the unborn and the numbers aren't going to be reduced. This is intentional what they are doing. Poor sexual education and acceptance of a "medical" advancement for women being abortion show's it's intentional population control and possibly some demon worshiping by TPTB with the practice of killing the first born or first conceived.

So how is the weather at westborough baptist church today?

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
reply to post by selfharmonise

Your pro war on the unborn and the numbers aren't going to be reduced. This is intentional what they are doing. Poor sexual education and acceptance of a "medical" advancement for women being abortion show's it's intentional population control and possibly some demon worshiping by TPTB with the practice of killing the first born.

Now this is the statement which proves how irrational and rabid your opinions are.

This is a moment which should be caught in amber. The crystallisation of the entire thread.

It's the core, what your beliefs boil down to. Their absolute essence.

They're founded on nothing but absolute irreality.

If I were to recommend that anyone read any of your posts then it would be this one.

This proves your ideas on abortion have nothing to do with abortion or the sanctity of life but that they are based on the idea that all abortion blood spilled is an illuminati sacrifice.

If I had starred any one of your posts...I'd be feeling very sheepish now.

G'nite ladies and gentlemen, my work here is done.

reply to post by selfharmonise


Your the sheep encouraging the killing of the unborn... Go eat some more grains and drink your fluoridated water.

Obviously your only intention is to promote the killing of the unborn. You've shown your true colors.

reply to post by windword


Well spermicide would work if the lady was quick enough.
Some times it takes days for those little tadpoles to score a direct hit. LOL
silly
LJB

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by windword

 

Well spermicide would work if the lady was quick enough.
Some times it takes days for those little tadpoles to score a direct hit. LOL
silly
LJB

That's true, but spermicide doesn't swim.

Originally posted by selfharmonise

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

Hi all,
Not sure who said what when.
I think what Ron Paul was saying to Piers is if you get raped get a doctor to inject spermicide to prevent conception. You need to do this quickly
He added HONEST RAPE I believe to make a distinction between a female that gets pregnant for other reasons.No way did he say abort.
cheers ljb

LOL. Not spermicide silly. It's too late for that. Dr Paul said he would give the victim a shot of estrogyn. Estrogyn will prevent the fertilized egg to implant in the uterus, therefore abort.

Thanks windword.

Doesn't this action of the estreogen shot act an an abortive to the " fertilised egg"....which to all the radical pro-lifers on this board, is a 'sacred life'....

Doesn't this fly in the face of the sanctity of life act, and is effectively an early stage abortion.....

For all those that believe that life begins at fertilisation, if this is true, then the prolife poster boy has clay feet.

Why, yes......it does. hmmmm.

(sorry, I missed your post earlier, just saw it now)