Ron Paul and Abortion " My thoughts" Please contribute

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

Well thats debatable. Is Killing a human right or wrong, or is it just a matter of opinion. Its what this is all about really. Generally speaking of course. Its wrong to kill based on the situation, was it self defense, was it premeditated. I dunno, ask yourself. Do you think murder being wrong is a matter of opinion, seriously?

of course it's an opinion...self defense, stand your ground, war, perscription drug fatalities, illegal drug overdoses, cops shooting unarmed people, death penalty...etc.
it all depends on who is expendable...remember this, afghanistan is where the taliban people are born, raised, and live, it's their home....hardly any of them have anything to do with terrorism

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

There are no brain waves before 20 weeks of fetal development. No brainwaves, no mind.

www.cirp.org...

Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and a neonatal electroencephalographic patterns, studies of cerebral metabolism, and the behavioral development of neonates. First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.

This report states that it offers suggestions and is not conclusive.

Also, thalamocortical connections, required for ANY outside signal to reach higher brain (and thus mind) do not appear before the week 25. There is no possibility of suffering before this time.

paul-baxter.blogspot.com...

edit on 13/4/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

this blog also states that receptors begin forming around the mouth at 7 weeks and conclude forming at 25 weeks. It is also not conclusive and only offers evidence afore mentioned.

Pain was not also the crux of the argument, in essence would a murder be acceptable if the victim was sleeping and died instantly?

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

Well thats debatable. Is Killing a human right or wrong, or is it just a matter of opinion. Its what this is all about really. Generally speaking of course. Its wrong to kill based on the situation, was it self defense, was it premeditated. I dunno, ask yourself. Do you think murder being wrong is a matter of opinion, seriously?

of course it's an opinion...self defense, stand your ground, war, perscription drug fatalities, illegal drug overdoses, cops shooting unarmed people, death penalty...etc.
it all depends on who is expendable...remember this, afghanistan is where the taliban people are born, raised, and live, it's their home....hardly any of them have anything to do with terrorism

Your just changing the subject to war, punishment, and criminal behavior. Your suggesting murder being wrong is an opinion. Straight out murder, right or wrong, or an opinion?

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This is the point though, the fact is abortion is the termination of a human life, thats a biological fact. That its not viable, or not yet feeling, or doesnt deserve rights, thats the opinion/belief.

That killing a human life alone is wrong, that is also your subjective opinion/belief. All morality is subjective.

Well thats debatable. Is Killing a human right or wrong, or is it just a matter of opinion. Its what this is all about really. Generally speaking of course. Its wrong to kill based on the situation, was it self defense, was it premeditated. I dunno, ask yourself. Do you think murder being wrong is a matter of opinion, seriously?

of course it's an opinion...self defense, stand your ground, war, perscription drug fatalities, illegal drug overdoses, cops shooting unarmed people, death penalty...etc.
it all depends on who is expendable...remember this, afghanistan is where the taliban people are born, raised, and live, it's their home....hardly any of them have anything to do with terrorism

Your just changing the subject to war, punishment, and criminal behavior. Your suggesting murder being wrong is an opinion. Straight out murder, right or wrong, or an opinion?

a refined, narrow, definition of murder is always wrong...and there lies the problem, who defines it, and for whom does it apply...if you went and killed the leader of a mexican drug cartel that just killed your entire family, would that be murder? or if you are a drug company where a customer of yours is the 1 out of 10 thousand that dies from a adverse reaction to you medication, or if you went to a mcdonalds and shot someone to death.

kill a mexican drug lord....2 to five years in prison, if that much
kill a drug customer...company is fined a monetary amount
kill a person in a mcdonalds...death penalty or life without parole
if you define "murder" as taking the life of another human being....then you need to be consistant for the consequences of that act, as you are for the definition of it.

reply to post by Achey

This report states that it offers suggestions and is not conclusive.

Where does it say its not conclusive?

It says exactly when brainwaves appear. And no brainwaves, no possibility of mind.

this blog also states that receptors begin forming around the mouth at 7 weeks and conclude forming at 25 weeks.

Receptors dont matter when signals they produce dont reach the higher brain.

Pain was not also the crux of the argument, in essence would a murder be acceptable if the victim was sleeping and died instantly?

You argued first that early fetuses have potential for pain and sufering. I simply refuted it.

No it would not be acceptable. But it would be acceptable if there was no mind, not just sleeping mind. There is no mind before 20th week. There can certainly be no mind in the first trimester. So killing fetuses before this time is acceptable.

thinkprogress.org...

This is what sparked the debate.

"75% percent of anti-abortion leaders are men. 100% of them will never be pregnant."

An radical feminist against Ron Paul...

Who cares if 100% of them will never get pregnant. We don't have a say for our brothers and sisters that are yet to be born because we can't get pregnant...

This is where the radical feminists come into play with the debate it's my body...

Well what about the body inside of you?? It's nothing , but a parasite to these radical feminists.

A parasite a human life... What is the world coming too that women believe this. A parasite is not created at conception, A human life is.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
A parasite is not created at conception, A human life is.

That one line sums up most of the debate.

The point when life begins will never be conclusively proven. It's all simply a matter of belief or opinion. Because of that, the debate will never end.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
A parasite is not created at conception, A human life is.

That one line sums up most of the debate.

The point when life begins will never be conclusively proven. It's all simply a matter of belief or opinion. Because of that, the debate will never end.

Belief or opinion...

Where do you get this stuff? How does life not start at conception? If it wasn't for a man and woman having sexual intercourse and the mans sperm penetrating that female egg. There would never be an human life again.

The only thing pro-abortion and radical feminists say are along the lines of:

it's not alive, It's not capable of feeling pain, It's my body, It's an parasite...

All mute arguments, As life begins at conception when the male sperm penetrates the female egg.

All these radicals and pro-abortion people do is play semantics. There is a clear cut time when a human life is started. And that's at conception.

Ron Paul would allow the states to decide. Why do we need the federal government funding these murder clinics?

Population Control.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo
A parasite is not created at conception, A human life is.

That one line sums up most of the debate.

The point when life begins will never be conclusively proven. It's all simply a matter of belief or opinion. Because of that, the debate will never end.

Belief or opinion...

Where do you get this stuff? How does life not start at conception? If it wasn't for a man and woman having sexual intercourse and the mans sperm penetrating that female egg. There would never be an human life again.

Wrong.

1. Artificial Insemination. No sex needed.
2. Female sperm cells have been created. Male sperm cells are no longer needed.

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo

What are you smoking? How does life not start at that point? If it wasn't for a man and woman having sexual intercourse and the mans sperm penetrating that female egg. There would never be no abortion debate.

You really don't know anything about the topic you started, and your "I know it all" attitude speaks volumes about your willingness to openly, honestly and civilly discuss the topic.

You're not going to convince people to change their minds by purposely pissing them off. If anything, you push them to the other side and compound the problem.

Until you've walked a mile in the shoes of a woman who has dealt with unplanned pregnancy, you have no right to dictate to her what is or isn't the "right" choice.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


People that say abortion is OK , already have their mind made up...

I'm just saying that it's a human life and not a parasite...

It deserves a right to life, just like that mom's mom gave her a right to life.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Achey

 

This report states that it offers suggestions and is not conclusive.

Where does it say its not conclusive?

It says exactly when brainwaves appear. And no brainwaves, no possibility of mind.

this blog also states that receptors begin forming around the mouth at 7 weeks and conclude forming at 25 weeks.

No it would not be acceptable. But it would be acceptable if there was no mind, not just sleeping mind. There is no mind before 20th week. There can certainly be no mind in the first trimester. So killing fetuses before this time is acceptable.

edit on 13/4/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

Hi
Dudes Dudettes,

Have any of you been inside a uterus? Well of course you have.
Most have also been through the vagina. Now try to get this.
One of your HALVES came down the tube, like a theme park ride.
Your other HALF swam up for an encounter like Johnny Wiesmuller.
And Wala a dude or dudette (or other) began.
Now can you tell me Mr sperm was not thinking, " I am going to get me some"
And Ms egg was there to learn knitting?
NOT they knew what they were doing, (in most cases)THEY KNEW
cheers ljb

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by yoyoyoyo

What are you smoking? How does life not start at that point? If it wasn't for a man and woman having sexual intercourse and the mans sperm penetrating that female egg. There would never be no abortion debate.

You really don't know anything about the topic you started, and your "I know it all" attitude speaks volumes about your willingness to openly, honestly and civilly discuss the topic.

You're not going to convince people to change their minds by purposely pissing them off. If anything, you push them to the other side and compound the problem.

Until you've walked a mile in the shoes of a woman who has dealt with unplanned pregnancy, you have no right to dictate to her what is or isn't the "right" choice.

edit on 4/13/2012 by ~Vixen~ because: (no reason given)

Hi vix
Please don't take offence.
read till end

Why on earth in the year 2012 or for the last 40 years (pill)should a lady
have an unwanted pregnancy? Lack of responsibility?, Rape? The 99% safe condom broke? I was drunk? toothache?
Should a man have the right to abort HIS child as well for any of these reasons?
Perhaps you could share your reason?
I am quite serious Because this is a national problem. We should all hold hands and try to solve, instead of trying to be correct in a devicive standoff.
OUR futures are at stake.
Peace ljb

reply to post by yoyoyoyo

People that say abortion is OK , already have their mind made up...

The only thing that people who are pro choice have their minds made up about is the fact that there is a choice.

I'm just saying that it's a human life and not a parasite...

It's a parasite till it can breathe and feed outside the womb.

It deserves a right to life, just like that mom's mom gave her a right to life.

And that's her right to give, hence PRO CHOICE. Sometimes it's an easy choice, the mother keeps the child, then, pro life advocates really have nothing to complain about, but sometimes, that choice is abortion, and the embryo, not being viable outside the womb, has as much right to life as the billions of microbes you destroy every single day when you take a shower.

Those microbes constitute a life form, yet no one bats an eye in obliterating them with anti bacterial soaps, and toothpastes, and Listerine.

reply to post by HauntWok


Showing no respect for human life when we are human ourselves shows where we are as a species.

In the gutter, confused and cold.

That's what we are since we allow the barbaric practice of abortion to continue.

Abortion clinics only target the poor and minorities. It's pretty obvious.

Population Control in full effect, You notice your not wanted as your a parasite to them... Your cattle to these parasites that that run this world. That's why they are actively poisoning everyone with cancer and throwing fluoride in our water to make us more dosile... Just like hitler did to the jews in the camps.

Cattle that's what you and I are to these "chosen" population control, greed freaks.

You think Obama is on any of our sides democrat or republican? Your wrong, He works for these control freaks.

And if he doesn't listen he will meet the same fate as JFK...

TPTB will murder who they need to and continue the war on the unborn for their demon worshipping.

reply to post by HauntWok

Hi haun,
So every time you are getting some, Your brain screams come ,come on PARASITES???
come again????
ljb
Ps Ron's ears must be burning.

reply to post by selfharmonise


"Abortion isnt convenient. It is not a kind process. "
It's obviously convenient for the woman getting the abortion and the unborn just gets his life stopped due to a negligent mother. Murder I say it is.

"But surely a very early stage abortion is kinder than making a woman go through pregnancy and giving away the child? "
Kinder for who the mother or the unborn? Obviously it wouldn't be kinder for that unborn child.

"If we are so caught up in the 'sanctity of life', then how can we eat meat and how can we support the death penalty and how can we support war? How can one person support bombing and murdering abortion doctors and in the next breath say that killing is wrong when it comes to a fertilised egg?"
Because we are tricked from birth. And way to use other examples to justify abortion and way to try to make abortion not a big deal by saying "fertilised egg". When we all know that's the beginning of life for a human.

"The hypocrisy of some moral standpoints is mindblowing. "
Your telling us this while you continue to advocate for the war on the unborn.

"Overpopulation is one of the greatest risks facing the world. "
Wrong, another attempt at trying to justify the war on the unborn.

"The focus shouldnt be on stopping abortions, the focus should be on controlling conception. "
I agree we should focus on controlling conception, but at the same time we need to focus on ending the war on the unborn. The war on the unborn is unnatural and murder.

"We're human, we make mistakes. If your friend was strong enough to have an abortion because she was too weak to stop drinking, then she knew she was not fit to care for a child. I admire her. "
You admire an alcoholic that had an abortion... Utter trash.

"I refuse to judge any woman for having an abortion. "
Yes we know you support the war on the unborn.

"My family foster children who come from abusive homes. Often the children are developmentally stunted by their mother's alcohol or drug abuse, or purely because of the lack of interaction their families give them in their very early years. "
So because of these circumstances we should continue the war on the unborn... Twisted mentality.


"Some of the children do not even know how to use a toilet, or how it feels to be clean and cared for.

These children rarely ever catch up with their peers developmentally, no matter how good the adoptive or foster care is. Their emotional reasoning and coping mechanisms tend to always remain less developed.

I watch these children suffer. A key reason they suffer is because of the perceived rejection of them by the biological parent.

There are too many children seeking foster care and adoption.

Often those children are developmentally unable to cope because of the poor parenting/antenatal behaviour of the mother/father.

I would rather that society allowed early term abortion < 8 weeks to women who felt they absolutely could not support a child. "

All of those reasons are why you support the war on the unborn.

"I would also rather we focused on stronger contraceptive support for young women and men, so that they are equipped and informed on sex. "
Hey that's not a bad idea. Good thoughts finally.

"I dont think any one person on this thread wants the abortion rate to increase. Across the thread the prolife and prochoice common ground has pointed to the fact that we would all like to see the number of abortions reduced. "
If your pro-abortion there is no common ground. Your pro war on the unborn and the numbers aren't going to be reduced. This is intentional what they are doing. Poor sexual education and acceptance of a "medical" advancement for women being abortion show's it's intentional population control and possibly some demon worshiping by TPTB with the practice of killing the first born or first conceived.

"it is my personal belief, that to do this, we need to educate and support our sexually active youth/adults in responsible sexual behaviour. Contraception is the biggest weapon in reducing the abortion rate. "
Yes have responsible sex and end the war on the unborn.

"A balanced, fair and supportive approach needs to be metered out on a sensitive subject. "
What ever that means. As the war on the unborn continues.

"Forcing a woman to give birth against her will, then hand the child over to someone else is simplistic, arbitrary and cruel in my view. "
Murder is cruel in my view.

"Alternatively, that woman should have had access to good contraception, a strong support network, and in the worst case, an early term abortion if it was felt appropriate. "
O what a "medical" advancement for these radical feminists. There masters are happy they are murdering their first borns or first conceived for their pagan gods.

End the war on the unborn, Stop federal support for these killing centers. Abortion numbers are out of control...

reply to post by HauntWok

The only thing that people who are pro choice have their minds made up about is the fact that there is a choice.

Yes there's a choice to murder.

"It's a parasite till it can breathe and feed outside the womb. "

Dumb logic. It's a human at conception. Parasites don't turn into humans.

And that's her right to give, hence PRO CHOICE. Sometimes it's an easy choice, the mother keeps the child, then, pro life advocates really have nothing to complain about, but sometimes, that choice is abortion, and the embryo, not being viable outside the womb, has as much right to life as the billions of microbes you destroy every single day when you take a shower.

Yes we know your pro-murder. And to compare our unborn to microbes is sad...

Those microbes constitute a life form, yet no one bats an eye in obliterating them with anti bacterial soaps, and toothpastes, and Listerine.

Way to justify the war on the unborn. We know where your mind is. In a different galaxy.
Stop the war on the unborn, save your brothers and sisters. Get the federal government out of the war on the unborn. We can bring change. All we have to do is educate each other and we will open each others eyes. Keep an open mind if you can and you will see the war on the unborn is not just or right.

Originally posted by Achey

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
reply to post by yoyoyoyo

 

Hi yo,

There is a place for control and that is before conception happens.
One of the major aspects of abortion and birth control in general is connected to overall population.
The government sell is, Americans should balance the population by limiting their birth rate.
Yet they then allow other countries to flood us with low cost illegal and legals
for gardeners, nannies, field workers, doctors, gas station and motel operators. etc.
American kids can't even find a house to paint or a lawn to trim on their summer breaks. Let alone their parents.
They leave the country wide open to outsiders that practice no control at all.
So in other words if you do not produce prodigy the outsiders will.
Your vote and resources will dwindle before your eyes by pure attrition.
If you do not fill the bio space, there are BILLIONS that will jump at the chance.
cheers ljb

Absolutely, with the falling population of the US, governments have had to allow immigration to fill the jobs once taken by the now aging population. The birthrate is so low, i think last i read for the US, was 1.3 per woman maybe? Im not sure Id have to look it up, but its been constantly falling since the 70's and even with the all of the abortions that have happened since the 70s the US would still be shrinking if they where born.

This is just a small part of the depopulation agenda thats been well sold, im certain that all of the pro choice groups are well funded by the Gates, Rockafella's, and Ted Turner.

Hi ach,
I am not sure if your way of looking at it is the same.
It started quite awhile ago. Before Roe vs Wade.
I guess that's why Ron Paul gets it.
In early America there was plenty land.
But no taxpayers so government gave the land away.
People from all nations came here for that free land. Mostly farmers.
They needed help on the farm so they had lots of kids.
Lots of taxpayers with lots of land.
Free loading parasites from abroad saw a good thing and started to weasel in. First they helped free the slaves. I have no problem with that, then they also emancipated women and I have no problem with that. Then they introduced drugs on an epic scale (problem with that) also the pill (estrogen) problem with that. Now the big one is they have done every thing in their power to pit one against the other. Easy to do now .Blacks hate whites, whites hate blacks. Latinos hate both etc. Women hate men . Men hate women. Schools teach kids that their parents are dumb, parents don't know their kids. Single moms, single dads.
Any way Ron Paul is aware of this. The Country Club establishment (POTUS) on down promote it.
Simple , they want for free what you and your ancestors have worked hard to get an protect.
The already have most. Well what I wanted to say the population was falling for a reason. MANIPULATED
optimistically ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
Hi vix
Please don't take offence.
read till end

Why on earth in the year 2012 or for the last 40 years (pill)should a lady
have an unwanted pregnancy? Lack of responsibility?, Rape? The 99% safe condom broke? I was drunk? toothache?
Should a man have the right to abort HIS child as well for any of these reasons?
Perhaps you could share your reason?
I am quite serious Because this is a national problem. We should all hold hands and try to solve, instead of trying to be correct in a devicive standoff.
OUR futures are at stake.
Peace ljb

Lack of responsibility: YES
Rape: ABSOLUTELY
Condom: Happens every day
Drunk: People do stupid thinks when they drink alcohol... including having sex
Toothache: I haven't figured out a way to answer that question affirmatively, but given time I may.. it's on my list of # to do
Should a man have the right to abort: He's not the host, but I feel VERY strongly that if has legitimate concerns, he should discuss them with his pregnant partner and let her know how he feels.

I absolutely agree that this is a problem in modern society. I've seen the despair many women go through when making this decision. It's heart wrenching and in many cases life altering, however it's a decision that people make largely because the circumstances in their life are not conducive to providing a proper environment in which to raise a child. Some reasons are selfish and/or vain, but ultimately that woman should still have the right to decide on how to proceed.

As stated in my original reply to this thread, as a mother, grandmother and medical doctor I could never have an abortion because said procedure runs counter to my personal beliefs. I do, however, believe that my experience as a parent has a HUGE influence on my standing on the issue, and effectively skews my opinion. We as a society should not dictate to a woman what she can or can't do, especially in regards to her own body. Abortion is an emotional issue that needs to be dealt with with dignity and respect. Calling a woman a murderer is wrong. It traumatizes women in a time when they're most in need of support, and reinforces the belief that society doesn't care about her personal welfare.

I recognize that not all women are blessed with the opportunity I have to properly care for a child, and I strongly feel that all children brought into the world should be brought in because they are wanted and loved. Anything less creates a negative environment in which to raise that child, it hinders the parents ability to properly provide for that child, and in some cases breeds animosity that may sometimes evolve into abuse. Children deserve better than that, and if we as parents, and society as a whole, cannot provide for their proper care, then we must adjust our social policies and practices to ensure that all children born are properly cared for and loved.

Rants, accusations and outright hostility towards those with a differing opinion have run rampant in this thread. I'm just trying to return the discussion to something more civil where people can openly express their views without being attacked.