Disclosure project: To The Disbelievers....

Originally posted by doctorduh
But, that does not make what they are saying true or irrefutable fact. To me, that's what makes physical evidence such a necessity. These are big claims by trusted people.

Yes, I agree that does not make their claims irrefuable fact. However, it certainly commands serious attention and investigation, and that is what the disclosure project desires; a congressional hearing.

But, testimony and a stack of data printouts with anomalies on them is not proof or fact. Radar systems are not infallable. As a computer tech, let me say that anything on a computer can be changed and manipulated or just be plain wrong.

Yes, Radar systems are not infallable, and I am sure Radar experts, who present this evidence, are more aware of this than us(Well, I am not a radar expert, are you?) and it would be reasonable to assume they have tested their data for all possible eventualities before they announce it as UFO. I will also like to point out, the evidence for UFO's is not just radar anomalies. There is so much, that I could fill pages here, I've done that before for some hardline skeptics in the past, it was a waste of time, it was like reasoning with terrorists(lol)

What do you make of the radar-visual-pilot-EM cases? UFO's that have been tracked on multiple radars, seen by eye witnesses, and intercepted by jets, causing EM failiure onboard?

I do not discount aliens. In fact, I believe that without a doubt there is life out there. But still no proof.

It's not that there is no proof. It's that your definition of proof has not been met, which is at best, evidence analysis, and at worst, a full government disclosure. I am an ex-skeptic myself, and for me it was the former. That being said, knowing about the existence of UFO/ET has not helped me at all, but what it has done, it has expanded my mind.


[edit on 25-9-2004 by Indigo_Child]

I hadn't checked on this thread for a few days. Indigo, you make sense. For the record no I'm not a Radar expert and I see your point on the professionals ruling out other possibilities and drawing the ufo conclusion. I guess I am a fence rider and need something more proof wise. I do infact support the full disclosure by the gov't of all ufo related information. The pessimist in me doesn't think that will happen though.

doctorduh

It is difficult to acquire evidence when u have the following happen:

US Air Force Lieutenant / Professor Robert Jacobs
"So this thing [UFO] fires a beam of light at the warhead, hits it and then it moves to the other side and fires another beam of light. And the warhead tumbles out of space. What message would I interpret from that? [The UFOs were telling us] don't mess with nuclear warheads. Major Mannsman said, "You are never to speak of this again." After an article [about the incident years later], people would call and start screaming at me. One night somebody blew up my mailbox."
From Disclosure, Steven M. Greer

Lieutenant Frederick Fox
"There is a [military] publication called JANAP 146E that has a section that says you will not reveal any information regarding the UFO phenomenon under penalty of $10,000 fine and ten years in jail. So the secret has been kept."
From Disclosure, Steven M. Greer. Lieutenant was a US Navy Pilot.

KyateLaBoca says:

�I am operating on the assumption that we have some way of verifying that these people have indeed worked for the government. On top of all that, they've said that they were willing to swear and testify to congress.�

Kyate, they can swear all they want to, and it�s not evidence; it�s just stories. And since the government can�t very prove a negative, they�re not going to get in trouble for perjury.

Huria86 says:

�I guess words are not enough these days to get people on there sides�

Well I�m sure it was not. Actually I don�t think it ever was.

KyateLaBoca says:

�Either way the background check would have to be the best way. If "so and so" claims he worked here, and a background check is run on him and it shows that "so and so" worked here, thats a strong indicator.�

But what would that prove? Are you implying that, just because they used to work for the government, they are honest? I thought you didn�t trust the government LOL!! Hey, I can claim to be a military veteran who is working for an aerospace company, used to fly small plains, and am the second coming of Jesus Christ. You can get all the evidence you want to show my military past, my employment, and even my flying a Cessna 152; therefore, the chances are pretty good that I really AM the second coming of Jesus Christ, because I check out.

Not.

Paul Richard says:

�There are many people outside of Dr. Steven Greer and the Disclosure Project who are credible witnesses and/or former government employees who claim to have insider information.�

Translation: They have no evidence; just talk.

�Those with physical evidence of extraterrestrials (and who refuse to give it up) are arrested and/or murdered by the government and also targeted by the aliens themselves.�

Translation: They have no evidence; just talk.

�They were coerced by the US army to either shut up and hand over their physical evidence of extraterrestrials or face incarceration and/or a bullet in their head.�

Translation: They have no evidence; just talk.

The bottom line is that you can come up with a bazillion excuses why you have no evidence, but � you have no evidence.

Sturod84 says:

"maintain your skeptisism, but dont disregard something that you cannot disprove."

And yet you want me to accept something that you can't prove? I don't think so. If you come up with an assertion, it's up to you to provide the evidence for it.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
But what would that prove? Are you implying that, just because they used to work for the government, they are honest? I thought you didn�t trust the government LOL!! Hey, I can claim to be a military veteran who is working for an aerospace company, used to fly small plains, and am the second coming of Jesus Christ. You can get all the evidence you want to show my military past, my employment, and even my flying a Cessna 152; therefore, the chances are pretty good that I really AM the second coming of Jesus Christ, because I check out.
Not.

Well when I said I didnt trust the government, I said I didnt trust the people in charge, NOT the people working for the government. Although I will admit there are disinformation specialists out there, some of which work for the government, and some of which dont.

And also you WOULD NOT be the second coming of Christ becuase your story doesnt check out. I cant really find a correlation between your military service and you being the next christ. Those are 2 different things. That was a real bad example. Now when I said if there story can check out exactly as they say, for example, PERSON A was here at this time and did such and such but is classified or whatever, then you have a chance for a case. If congress did call these people, the first thing they will ask is..."Who are you? And what did you do for the military." And if the person tells them what they did and there are no records of that person working for the military, then is there a case?

If they can find that they did work for the military and are swearing under oath(a former top veteran swearing under oath), then there would be a chance for congress to prompt an investigation into the matter. And lets not forget the whole witness list they had willing to swear off, now if you can prove all their work credentials, then you have a chance for a strong case.

Then when I made a remark about their credentials being a strong indicator, that would prove a lot. That would obviously prove their telling 50% of the truth about being their and doing so and so. Now you would have to verify the other 50%. Now when you talk about proof, why dont you attempt to disprove these people's work credentials. Then you can shut this whole project down easily.

[edit on 2-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

There are 200-400+ government witnesses, ranging from fields and organizations as diverse and professional as; CIA, NSA, USAF, UN, NASA. These are accomplished scientists, engineers, pilots, generals, university lecturers, psychologists, lawyers, law enforcers, astronauts, that have a lot of experience and credentials and have had first-hand experiences with UFO/ET's.

and how many from the 200-400 can totally swear as fact that they know it to be alien in origin ?

could be that they witnessed something but assumed it was alien - until they see lil green men they just seen either weird radar ,secret craft or swamp gas reflected off venus

"And also you WOULD NOT be the second coming of Christ becuase your story doesnt check out. I cant really find a correlation between your military service and you being the next christ. Those are 2 different things."

Exactly. And there isn't a correlation between the fact that these guys were ex-military or ex-civilian government employees and the fact that they saw outer space guys. They are two different things.

"Now you would have to verify the other 50%. Now when you talk about proof, why dont you attempt to disprove these people's work credentials."

Because their "credentials" are not the issue; the credibility of their stories (without any evidence) is the issue.

[edit on 2-10-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Exactly. And there isn't a correlation between the fact that these guys were ex-military or ex-civilian government employees and the fact that they saw outer space guys. They are two different things.

"Now you would have to verify the other 50%. Now when you talk about proof, why dont you attempt to disprove these people's work credentials."

Because their "credentials" are not the issue; the credibility of their stories (without any evidence) is the issue.
[edit on 2-10-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Not necessarily. Look at the guys claiming to be in the air force. Flying U.S. planes and seeing strange objects moving a 1000 times faster then their inferior equipment. That has a lot to do with people in the army seeing outer space crafts who are possibly manned by aliens. So lets say if they were russian made and not from outer space, would the government let all these russians fly around for the hell of it on U.S. territory or any other country for that matter?

There is also the claim from that other guy clifford stone about how the military is associated with collecting crashed saucers and bodies. That would also be a correlation with military and aliens.

Now why wouldnt you want to check up on their credibilities? I think credibility is an issue. The credibility of their stories is based on the credibility of the job they performed. Just like with that clifford stone guy. If you have proof and no credibility, no one will believe you. You will be considered a phony(with fake evidence) like the rest of the people like Al bleilik and Lazar. But if you have credibility and lack of physical evidence you can atleast know that part of the tale they tell is true. Lets not forget that you have no way of getting away with hard evidence that would expose the government. The government is too smart for that.

Now Its just a matter of getting congress to run a formal investigation based on the fact that these people swore under oath, and becuase they can verify(100%) that they were with the military conducting classified projects. If they cant then there is no investigation. See if you say credibility isnt an issue AT ALL then thats like saying that you 100% believe they were in the military doing what they said they were doing.

So its like I was saying before...why not try to disprove their credentials? Then we'll know for sure. Thats how they shut Lazar down.

[edit on 2-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

[edit on 2-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

Originally posted by acidhead
and how many from the 200-400 can totally swear as fact that they know it to be alien in origin ?

could be that they witnessed something but assumed it was alien - until they see lil green men they just seen either weird radar ,secret craft or swamp gas reflected off venus

That's BULLSH*T acidhead...
And you know that...

I can't believe ppl R still takin you seriously...

[edit on 2-10-2004 by Italiano]

Originally posted by Italiano

Originally posted by acidhead
and how many from the 200-400 can totally swear as fact that they know it to be alien in origin ?

could be that they witnessed something but assumed it was alien - until they see lil green men they just seen either weird radar ,secret craft or swamp gas reflected off venus

That's BULLSH*T acidhead...

And you know that...

I can't believe ppl R still takin you seriously...

[edit on 2-10-2004 by Italiano]

I'm not takeing him seriously. Acid head, when you say until they see lil green men, well there were more then 2 people on that press conference that did say they saw green men or heard astronauts claiming they saw something in outer space that wasnt man made.

i wasnt going at u personally ^^^

i just cheked sum other threads and...

acid...when u have sumthin interesting to say?

italiano - its quite obvious that you do not like me for some strange reason

every post i make you seem to think is funny , even to the point of U2U'ing me and telling me you are going to "leave me in a pool of blood"

you have a strange infactuation with me and its getting scary - are you gay ?

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by Ghaele

Those with physical evidence of extraterrestrials (and who refuse to give it up) are arrested and/or murdered by the government and also targeted by the aliens themselves. There are people in federal prisons that were exposed to aliens, talked about them publicly, and are now serving time for it. Many government and former government employees are terrified to open their mouths and for good reason.
-----------cut -----------------

I must insist of proof for the above. Of course you can't because it's a load of wash!

Au contraire...

For example, there is the story about the security guard who worked at a secret underground government facility and who came out publicly to tell of his eyewitness experience in seeing Zetan-Greys. He is now in prison for it. John Lear mentioned this case in his recent interview in the ATS forum. Read it. The government doesn't murder employees who talk but they have been known to incarcerate and interrogate them. They only murder those who they consider to be a threat of some kind.

WHERE DO THESE PEOPLE COME FROM!???

Dude, you've seriously gotta return to reality. I am not trying to insult you but I think you need a good hard slap to come to your senses. If you were able to step back and look at yourself, I think you would realize that you're completely out of touch with reality. I began reading the website in your sig and it's completely and utterly ridiculous. It's trash.

If you sincerely believe what you're writing, then that's fine, to each his own. I'm just sayin', maybe you should relax a little and take this whole thing with a grain of salt.

Zip

At the very heart of any conspiracy discussion, there's another issue, preventing those who are for and those who are against the discussed theory, from ever reaching a constructive exchange of information. The issue is belief system.

People have so called "belief-systems". They make up how we view and understand our world, and If people were indeed ready to openly discuss any issue, allowing for information to be looked at which disrupts their beliefsystem, issues like the ones discussed here on this board quickly take us all to higher grounds of insights.
Instead, if any evidence should point to that belief-system being false or not real, it should not be underestimated how hard this can be to realize. The very structure with wich we build our fait in our surroundings are threathened.

In the issues like 911 it's certainly not evidence that lack, it's the people's willingness to point their eyes and look.

In 1543 a man with the name Nicolas Copernicus died at the age of 70. He was the founder of modern astronomy. In 1530, Copernicus completed and gave to the world his great work "De Revolutionibus", which asserted that the earth rotated on its axis once daily and traveled around the sun once yearly: a fantastic concept for the times. Everyone believed that the earth was the center of the universe. At some point Copernicus invited fellow scientists up to his turret on the walls of the cathedral. He could prove his assessments if they would only look to the stars and hear his explanaition.

Here comes a wonderfull excampel of human belief system, all his fellow scientists had to do was to look up. Here's the kicker: they would not look to see... they would not look to see... they would not look to see...

In much the same manner, for people who view our authorities as the foundation of their belief system, it causes great pain and anger to see evidence supporting the theory that we have been lied to.

There is good news for those who are affraid that our officials are not to be trusted. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil a whole bunch, and the good news is that a lot of officials are not lying but telling the truth. They say what they believe is the truth, they would never lie to us. I'm sure everyone will agree that in any system there are but a few untrustworthy people.

The dangerous thing is that if those people have much power, and we are not prepared to take into account that we have to watch over our leaders, and always be prepared to protect our world from our governments. In this case we are giving them an easy ride, and make it very easy for them to mislead us and abuse our common world for their personal agenda.

Take a look at what this guy warned us about:
"All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph, of reason and justice, must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good, will exert upon events in the political field."
-- Albert Einstein

He also acknowledged that because people like to think alike, very few look for the real truth, but rather are content with what the majority believes:
"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts."
-- Albert Einstein

Another guy who tried to inform us of the belief system mind lock:
"Most people will dismiss a theory, simply because of the tone in which it was said"
-- nietzsche

Everybody please remember all the officials through the times that have been caught lying, and consider 3 things:
1) When they were exposed, and hopefully removed, did it also remove the possibility of new "bad apples" to achieve power?

2) When some are exposed, are all exposed? or are many left unexposed?

3) Even if many lie, does it mean that our very system is wrong or that all officials lie?

Many of you will see that not all can be lying, and at the same time not all can be telling the truth. This is why we all must be prepared to share our part of the responsibility in our common world, which is to always beprepared to acknowledge that any given elected leader could potentially be lying, and we cannot afford to look the other way.

Wouldn't it really be much better if that person, or that group of persons were exposed and removed, to be replaced by trustworthy and decent people?

This way the world some of us desperately needs, but all of us wants, would become...reality.


Sincerly

Cade

I would also like to list the witnesses that came forward with new information and warning to us all, in the plea for a congressional hearing, where to present evidence for their claim.

As you all read through this list, please consider, for our common society's future, if the time has not come to go and look for the truth together, and find that truth whatever it may turn out to be.

� Project leader, Dr. Steven Greer, Lifetime member of Alpha Omega Alpha(the nation's most prestigious medical honor society) former chairman of emergency medicine at Caldwell Memorial Hospital.

� Division Chief, Mr. John callahan, Accidents and Investigations Branch of the FAA (www.faa.gov...)

� Lieutenant general Charles Brown, US Airforce.

� Air Traffic Controller, Sergent Michael Smith, US Airforce.

� Senior air traffic controller, Hr. Enrique Kolbeck, Mexico City International Airport.

� Commander Graham Bethune, US Navy. Pilot.

� USAF- Lockheed Skunkworks employee, Mr. Don Phillips, Contractor to the US Airforce.

� Captain Robert Salas, US Airforce nuclear missile launch Officer.

� Lieutenant general Dwynne Arnesson, US Airforce.

� Mr. Harland Bentley, US Army.

� Military Intelligence Analyst, Mr. John Maynard, DIA(Defence Intelligence Agency).

� Sergent Karl Wolfe, US Ariforce. Precision electronics photografic repairman. Top-secret "Krypto" clearance. (38 levels above "Top-secret")

� Fhilco Ford Employee, Donna Hare, NASA contractor.

� Security Officer, Mr. Larry Warren, RAF Bentwaters, Woodbridge and Nato Airforce base facilities. Security clearence. Guarding nuclear backline nuclear weapons.

� Major George A. Filer III, US Airforce Intelligence Officer.

� Platoon Sergent Clifford Stone , US Army, nuclear secret clearance. Projekt Bluefly, Moondust.

� Aerospace Illustrator, Hr. Mark McCandlish, US Airforce.

� Attorney Daniel Sheehan.
� Counsel for the Disclosure Project
� Graduate at Harvard Colledge in 1967 in Social, american governments and constitutional law.
� Graduate at Harvard Law School.
� Masters and PHD at Harvard Divinity School i Social ethics and Social Policies.

Career:
� The "Pentagon Papers" case before the supreme court.
� The "Watergate burglaries" case before congress.
� Counsel for the judicial headquarters for the National Social Ministry in Washington DC.


� Dr. Carol Rosin, Aerospace Executive. The first woman executive in an aerospace defense industry. Founder and President of the Institute for Cooperation in Space. Award winning educator. An Honorary Marine. Repeatedly called to witness before the congress on the space-based weaponssystem.

How many witnesses will it take before we deem it necessary to ask for a full disclosure, what ever it may bring?

Please be reminded that an additional 500 witnesses stand ready to provide testimony. Some of them dare not do so without imunity from congress.

Must they continue to wait for us to debate back and forth the evidence, before they have even provided their testimony? Does this discussion not belong after the hearing instead of before?

We can all get through this together if we support each other in being prepared for what ever truth comes out of such a hearing.

How many of us can sleep, knowing that this group of men ask for an opportunity to prove the existence of technology that could end the global energy cricis, world hunger etc.

Is this subject not at least equally important as the Clinton and Monica incidence?

Sometimes the politicians who aim for the truth to reach the world community needs our support to gain leverage within the halls of government. Sometimes the leaders need the followers support.

Please consider if a hearing to obtain the truth in any matter is not a worthy case. Especially when it deals with the biggest question of mankind, and the possible solution to our worlds greates challenges.

What kind of world are we all creating if we do not support this?
www.disclosureproject.org...



Sincerly

Cade

[edit on 3-10-2004 by Cade]

[edit on 3-10-2004 by Cade]

Good Point Cade

The people that dont believe should try to keep an open mind of the issues. You dont even necessarily have to believe, but keeping an open mind can prepare you for the truth, whereas to other people that downright reject the idea will have a rude awakening.

I got the book "Disclosure" By Dr. Steve Greer in the mail the other day. I'm going to read it as soon as I'm done reading "America (the book)" By Jon Stewart & Co.

I'll get my highlighter out and be sure to hang all the juicy copyrighted material here for all of you to enjoy...

Alot of folks seem to think if there were credible folks disclosing an ET reality that they would be killed. Who says Dr Greer isnt being sponsored by secret committees within the government? Same with Dr Friedman. Testing the waters out there with the public before a legitimate disclosure is made. Even Dr Mack was funded by Lawrence Rockerfeller on some of his projects. I think the shift is very close at hand and I think media/entertainment and the UFO researchers are the PR folks for it, knowingly and unknowingly. They realize they cannot keep hiding this and maybe the ETs are tired of hiding as well.

Just recently
rense.com...
www.wisinfo.com...

Originally posted by project_pisces
Alot of folks seem to think if there were credible folks disclosing an ET reality that they would be killed. Who says Dr Greer isnt being sponsored by secret committees within the government?

That's what I've been thinking...

If all the stories of UFOs and ETs are real, then so must be the stories of people who were whacked for knowing and telling. The truth is, someone is apparently lying about something here.

If all the stories of UFOs and ETs are real, then so must be the stories of people who were whacked for knowing and telling. The truth is, someone is apparently lying about something here.

Perhaps one secret committee wants it to be known(the ones that allow it in documentaries,media/entertainment and the surviving researchers) Then there is another committee thats trying to block it(the ones whacking people)

I call it object oriented compartments within the intelligence agencies(foreign and domestic. Each one can think and act independently of itself. And not all compartments agree(like the Windows platform) Yet the intelligence agencies are seen by the world and even officials in the gov as a whole but they are not. Good example is the 2 shadow agencies in the show Star Gate SG1,,,you have SG1(the explorers. easy going and light hearted) then you have the others NID(they want to hide. control, and kill everything)

[edit on 3-10-2004 by project_pisces]