Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by Miraj


If you gave a DNA analyst a vial of "her" blood, without a picture, and asked which sex the sample belonged to the DNA would return male.

He is a he.

reply to post by Sphota





It is also a 'platform' or 'springboard' for an attractive girl to ensure a life of wealth and

luxury. Have you EVER seen a wealthy man with a less than attractive woman by his

side? Two wealthy celebraties who have married beauty pagent winners are Michael

Cain and i believe Donald Trump did too, I'm sure there will be many others.

I'd like to start off and say, that as a transgender myself, I respect all the diversity of views on here. I think to some degree, we do damage in helping people understand trans issues when we are quick to wrath when confronted with views which may not be so enthusiastic regarding trans issues. In truth, both sides need to learn to appreciate diversity of views.

Trans issues are not easy to understand because they are not always so simple and black and white, like many things in life are not so simple and black and white. And the surface of a thing is not always the whole truth of a thing. Many of the misunderstandings I see here on this thread are understandable because they are based from a perspective of 'from the outside looking in'. It's like learning a culture when one knows nothing to very little about it. We see what is on the surface, but we do not necessarily understand its depth and context. We will assume much, and often, incorrectly. Instruction is a life long vocation, no matter how much we come to know, there is always another level of understanding. I think some are concerned that in exploring these issues in depth means they have to throw the baby out with the bath water and compremise their values, not so.

The subject on this thread in my opinion touches into some important issues. As a transgender, it touches for me on issues of where I must ask myself where my place is in society as the Third Gender. We live in a society which says I must be either or, there is no alternative. No matter what I consider myself, the fact is, I will always be transgender, it is not who I am but it is part of who I am as a human being. This means I can never trully be either or in the sense of what this society considers it regardless of what I consider myself, if I wish to be honest with myself.

I ask myself, why not embrace our own beauty pageants? Why should embracing our transgenderness compremise the gender we identify and live? This line of thought dosn't mean I am expressing a yay or nay on the matter of this thread, only that I am open to alternative thought.

*chucks in my two cents*

reply to post by Noncents


You don't know that.

You give it to an analyst it looks like it could end up neither.
There is such a thing as intersex people.

Also, do we start determining people for their DNA?

What if someone is sure to get Alzheimer's. Do we then start to treat them as they have dementia already?
Bad example.

reply to post by Partygirl


Hmm i think this is just another "create a post which will attract polar opposite views" kind of like vegetarian versus meat eaters. Social issue? Not really it is more about rules in a competition our opinions are moot. Above top secret? Not in the slightest. *yawn*

I dont much like Christians, should you be allowed to continue to have a voice in society when your views could be considered bigoted, warped, narrow minded, scientifically raped of basic fact? See where i am going with this? Your brother is also a quandry. A soldier with religious beliefs fighting in countries where the basic religious views are a world apart.

Anyway.... pointless post, much like your OP

T

reply to post by Miraj


I do know that. I have two close, old friends that are biochemists.

Here's a quick link with proof that the female and male DNA is different. You can find many more if you look for facts.

sandwalk.blogspot.com...

reply to post by Noncents


It is, and it isn't.

But clearly the person we are speaking of, has some feminine DNA in them, jah?

Of course, it would be insane to attempt to map an entire genome for such a silly argument. I see it as pretty disrespectful for someone to call a transwoman, he.

It's like calling a gay person straight, and straight person gay. It doesn't make sense and it's just offensive.

Thats messed up. Its a guy posing as a girl in a female beauty pageant. Kick him out, and call him a lier for trying to be something hes not.

I dont care what people say, you choose your way to be male or female, he didnt grow female breasts by himself. And didnt have long hair and anything of the sort by himself. He had to change himself by choice, and force what he was into something he never was.

Messed up world, good decision by the judges to rebuke him. Its a guy faking to be a women, and its only on the outside. If you could see them on the inside, their soul, you would know its a man.

Once again, I'm thoroughly repulsed at how people around ATS react to transgender people. It's really saddening to see people otherwise so "enlightened" be so hateful and degrading in regards to this issue.

I don't feel like spending hours writing a post in defense of this woman, so I'll link one of my past ones.


There's something I want you all to realize - VERY RARELY is the media's stance pro-transgender. If it were, we certainly would not be hated and feared like we are. You know what the media's stance is? Sensationalism. They play up the weirdos that are genuine weirdos and ignore the majority (which, by the way, is estimated at 1 in 500 people..) that legitimately have nothing 'wrong with them'. Just like 'regular' people, transgender ones can have mental issues and be strange, too, and these are the ones the media likes to jump on and put the spotlight on.

When you say we have an "agenda" .. yes. Yes, we do. The agenda is to make ourselves more accepted so that we don't have to fear for our very lives, reputations, liberties and happiness. Is that evil?!

Most transgender people you run in to (and believe me, you've met more than you realize) do NOT want you to know, because they ARE the gender they have assumed. They don't identify as "transgender", they identify as male or female just like everyone else. Most of the time, they're straight and like the opposite sex just like the rest of you. Homosexuality and transgender people are unfairly lumped and it causes issues.

Were you aware that in the Islamic Republic of Iran (and other "evil, non-christian nations") where homosexuaity is prohibited, not only do the governments allow transgender people to transition, but in many cases they actually assist in this process, something western nations actually can't hold a candle to. It always makes me sort of sad when Christians don't stop and consider that transgender people were probably made that way for a reason.. isn't hardship against overwhelming odds a virtue that makes you a stronger, more godly person in the end? What do you want to bet I have a much closer relationship with God than most Christians' shallow fake-spirituality? On some days, it's all I have to turn to.

The last poster wrote one of.. maybe the most hurtful things I've ever read about transgender people. Because you know what?

My soul? It's female.

In liberty, love, and tolerance,
- zS

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by Noncents

 

You don't know that.

You give it to an analyst it looks like it could end up neither.
There is such a thing as intersex people.

Also, do we start determining people for their DNA?

What if someone is sure to get Alzheimer's. Do we then start to treat them as they have dementia already?
Bad example.

edit on 3-4-2012 by Miraj because: (no reason given)

You ever seen a natural hermaphrodite? they qualify as intersex do they not? Doctors have a habit of deciding the sex of alot of children that are born with both organs. They routinely play God and instead of letting the child grow up with both sets will "fix them" Its why hermaphrodites are very rare because parents all want a perfect baby. I almost bet you a good percentage of all the ones getting sex changes are "fixed" at birth. I am gender dysphoric myself. I have always said I am a lesbian in a mans body. I find men disgusting. Hell even if i went and became mostly female id would still only go after women. Not all transgender people want to be with their own gender. I wonder why its so strange really since we all start out as female in the womb.

reply to post by Arles Morningside


Thanks for your intelligent insight
I agree one's sex is only a part of who we are.
I think sex differences are over emphasized - boys and girls both face different social indoctrinations.
As a boy I loved some girls toys - no not those kind of toys.
Also I have always thought the women have the best fashions compared to mens
I have a transgender friend gay friends male and female and heterosexual friends - They are all friends to me.
I believe it is what is inside a person that is most important. People need to loosen up it is no big deal live and let live and celebrate all differences.

reply to post by yuppa


I haven't. But one could never tell usually.

I think it's no longer considered acceptable to perform operations like genital removal before the patient is only enough to decide themselves. Which is great.

I'm pretty repulsed at ATS right now myself. The intelligence has surely dropped to primitive amongst the majority of members, as almost everyone's comments here in this thread appear to have come from drunken frat boys. Which the sad thing is, I've known drunken frat boys more accepting of transgendered people than ATS.

Deny ignorance, everyone. Does denying that you have it count too?

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by InsideYourMind

 

Genetics and nature would definitely like to disagree with your "gender is a mindset not an organ" comment. Gender is wholly an organ, its how life works. Men have Penises and a scrotum, women have a vagina, and a uterus. Also they have different dominant hormones due to their genetics. So no gender is an organ and not a mindset, if someone doesn't like their gender well then they can lead the genetic field of research for gene therapy to replace sex chromosomes.

Can you then explain why almost every species inhibits what we call "homosexuality" throughout nature? There are even many cases of same-sex animals caring for their newborn with the absence of the mother, as in a male fox caring for another male fox's newborn with the role of a mother.

Gender isn't a genetic thing, everyone throughout life for one moment or another takes on the role of the opposite sex, without even realising it most of the time.

Physical appearance does not define ones gender.

Originally posted by viperdave
reply to post by paradox

 

My girlfriend recalls memory's when she was younger than 5 and so do I!!

She has ALLWAYS felt she was a girl no question about it, she was first born of 7 and had a very masculin father who tryed to curb the femanin person inside her most of her childhood and made her life hell!!

Saying that it was the parents fault she is like this is stupid!! she came from a small town in central Mexico where people like her were ridiculed and harrassed for.being who theyN were!!

Her own mother told her "if you ever have a child that is gay it's better that the child is dead!"


So there wasNOTHING femanin on how she was raised!!

Sorry, to hear that your girlfriend had to suffer such treatment, especially from her own family and peers, unfortunately; and I shouldn't answer for him, but I don't think Paradox will care and will call it anecdotal evidence. Much easier for him to throw out your claim that way, even though it blatantly contradicts his stance. After all he has his "degree" which he has confused with being a certificate meaning he is always right. Though I will take the time now to say Paradox should definitely have a degree in after post editing, with the amount of changes they made after the fact.

And, I am not going to knock psychology, because it has done much for many people, but truthfully it is not really a "hard" science and actually changes it's mind about things frequently. After all, it wasn't all that long ago men with degrees thought frontal lobotomies were a brilliant treatment for postpartum depression and many other mental illness, luckily these days they aren't running around severing peoples connection to their frontal lobes, as much.

Anyway, I wish you and your girlfriend well, and hopefully science will reach a point to where it won't be a societal issue anymore, because no one but the individuals, their families and their doctor will ever have to know.

Originally posted by Noncents
reply to post by Miraj

 

If you gave a DNA analyst a vial of "her" blood, without a picture, and asked which sex the sample belonged to the DNA would return male.

He is a he.

That is nonsense. XX/XY Chromosomes only define what physical appearance DNA will give. There are many many more factors involved with other genes in our DNA which can enforce opposite sex behaviours. It's common throughout all of nature.

By what we humans call "physical gender", yes it would show as male. There is alot more to it than you seem to think. there are in fact rare conditions in which male children are born with uteri, i would like to ask you, what gender would they be? Because their DNA would show up as XY for male, but they have portions of the female repoductive organs. Are you aware?

"She" is in fact a she. The girl looks like a woman, and more than likely thinks like a woman. If nobody told you she was born with a penis, you would most probably have never known.

I think the problem is jealousy with most of these posts about how "horrid" it is to transition to the opposite sex. Maybe these people all lack courage and know they could never do something as brave as this to feel "normal".

Honestly. You'd think we are still living in the dark ages with the majority of beliefs in this world. People seem to be frightened by things of unimportance. We are all humans, that's all that matters.

reply to post by Miraj


I would have to look into it myself to answer your question about if this person has feminine DNA or not. I don't know if the DNA is messed with in the switch to another sex. I doubt that it is though. That's beyond what my friends have talked about around me and I've never looked into that myself.

I agree that walking up to a guy whom looks like a guy and saying he’s a girl is rude. I was only mentioning the DNA side in reference to your comment of looking at a picture to decide.

I’m not against any community for how they were born. My best friend (female) has been with a guy for four years. He's in the process of becoming a woman. He is ok with being called he or she until the operation, then it’s “all she, all the time” as he says. He is the one that brought the DNA issue to my attention.

I will admit that it’s a bit weird sometimes talking to a guy with five-o-clock shadow and breasts bigger than my wife’s’ though. Does that make me dislike him? Not at all. He’s one of the few people I know in real life that is open minded enough to have ATS style conversations without him getting upset and stomping off.

I hope this clears up my stance. I'm all good with the tansgendered crowd. I'm against anyone that thinks they deserve 'special' rights though. This person filled out an application form, read the "born female" rule, and lied. That was a conscious decision that goes beyoned gender.

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
By what we humans call "physical gender", yes it would show as male.

I am not a specialist in that field. As I said, I was going by what my friends have said, in conversation with themselves, while I was around. They mostly talked over my head but I asked, "So that means, men and women are different on a DNA level, right?" The response was yes.

I'm sure there is a lot more about it that I don't know. I do not work in that field nor have I taken any classes that handled that directly.

I've looked online some, not in a ton of detail but enough to see that this appeared to be true so I believed it to be true. You, yourself, agreed to that point.

Ultimately your genetics determine whether you're male or female, or the color of your hair, eyes, etc. Now tell me, does this person still have a Y chromosome or two floating around in its body? The fact of the matter is that the person in question was born with an XY combination, and is therefor a man, and unless he can prove otherwise, he shouldn't be allowed to run around, legally recognized as not being so.

I honestly believe that any person who thinks they're actually a women but is physically a man, or vice versa, is mentally ill, as they believe in things that aren't real, just as my grandma always thought that the aliens were after her, and subsequently locked herself in her room 24/7, with towels pinned around the windows and stuffed in the spaces under the doors.

reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools


thank you for posting, paradox has his views, he knows what he has read, and its a good thing there are multiple web sites to get info from, and i agree with you , not all psyche people are bad, there are many many that help people get through life.
to have a sex change operation you have to go through a battery of tests and evaluations its not just "i want it now" type of thing


and thank you again for your kind words



be safe people

reply to post by Darkinin


Fortunately.. this isn't the 1950s, and you don't work in Psychology. Sure in the good ol' days of America, we would have taken this lovely lady, strapped her into some chair in a dark room and then shocked the hell out of her brain until she could no longer find a reason to live.. But unfortunately progressvism has introduced crazy ideas that help people live how they should by giving them therapy and actual recognized medical treatments rather than shutting them away and talking about the living in past tense.


Genetics are not straight and narrow. Genetics shift. They let us live, and they kill us. Hair color is not pre-determined. Ever notice how children can start of blonde and end up brunette by 18? And also, the genetics of this is not yet understood. It's very likely not just an issue of XY and XX that define gender. As we have 23 Sets of Chromosomes. Want to guess which set as the smallest amount of base pairs? Ding ding. It's the 23rd set of chromosomes which on paper define sex.

And what about an issue such as Klinefelter's syndrome? "boys" which have a third X chromosome. Are they boys or girls? It's no simple matter as XY/XX.. To think that is purely ignorant of basic genetics.