Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Originally posted by viperdave
There is a lot of good constructive conversation on this topic and I can agree with some people who feel that this woman( who was born a man) shouldn't be allowed to compete, I agree with one poster about not allowing any cosmetic sergery, why should one girl win after she has had 25k worth of cosmetic sergery?

That means only the rich girls will win cuz they have the money to look good!!

If that's the case then they should ban all cosmetic sergery for the contestants

Maybe they will change the rules after this but for now I'm glad she is back in the contest




Be safe people

If you dont allow plastic surgery most of south america would be out. I saw a show once, maybe a dateline or something, that did a story on a few of these countries. The government actually will pay for the surgeries of their contestants.

Throw in a panel of gay judges
and you have yourself the new miss
univer MR. JONES truly a disgrace
to the pagent but i did not know people
stil watched that superficial BS

Originally posted by viperdave
reply to post by paradox

 

Ok , try reading earlier posts, your statement just proves your ignorance

How mommy and daddy raise there kids have nothing to do with transgenderiism!! Most will try to stop it!!

But it won't work

LOL yeah right!
Transgender is the result of flawed childhood development where parents fail to reinforce the role of their child's gender identity and what should be socially acceptable for their sex. They may "try to stop it" as they grow of age and are able to interpret what should be acceptable norms, but the damage is already done by that time which is why they feel they are "trapped in the wrong body."

But what do I know? I only have a degree in cognitive psychology.

Originally posted by paradox
Transgender is the result of flawed childhood development where parents fail to reinforce the role of their child's gender identity and what should be socially acceptable for their sex. They may "try to stop it" as they grow of age and are able to interpret what should be acceptable norms, but the damage is already done by that time.
But what do I know? I only have a degree in cognitive psychology.

And is that universally accepted as fact? Cuz seems to me that the whole gay issue (which, I know, this is not) was recently de-pathologised (if that's a word) by the AMA.

Which is to say that its little (non-MD as a rule) brother psychology is not above being a little fuzzy around the margins, too. I'm not sure your assertion is above challenge, even within the field itself.

reply to post by coop039

I heard something about that also

It's also sad that people can't judge a contest on somebody's inner beauty

Ive been involved with many MANY genetic women over the years and as I've grown older I had seen the inner beauty in a lot of them Ive met women who looked like a "10" but when I got to know them they turned into a "6" or less

As I said in an earlier post on page 3, my girlfriend of 6 years is transgendered

I fell in love with her inner beauty

I tell people ,," I fell in love with what's. Between her EARS not what's between her legs!!"

Some people just don't get it

This TG girl in the contest looks awsome but what's her inner beauty like?? I don't know maybe that will be the deciding factor if she wins or not


Be safe people

reply to post by viperdave


...well...more power to you. Respect. I wouldn't have the balls to be quite honest.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by GonzoSinister

if a woman can have surgery and enter a competitions based on beauty when her beauty is there for fake.. plastic.. molded by a doctor etc..i see no difference than if a man has molded himself to also look like a hot women.. the judging is on hotness not breast feeding and baby carrying!

Exactly, and that is why being bigoted and using two restrooms, one for males and one for females, is actually a form of segregation.

Forcing women and men to separate like that is an archaic practice of the past.

/end sarcasm

Im sure there is a difference between being sarcastic and being stupid.. i mean obviously there is issues between using restrooms and stuff, and im pretty certain that could be addressed in a different thread...

incase you have missed this thread point, a person who looked like a women entered a beauty contest to be judged on physical appearance, no other attributes were taken into account... now i think beauty contests are stupid in the first place, but i really dont understand how anyone can object to a guy who has had surgery to look like a woman, and a woman who has had surgery to look more like a woman being judged on equal ground, when you are judging both as essentially an ornament, somthing to look at nothing more nothing less...


people have spouted garbage about it being degrading to women..or suggested its in someway bad taste for a man to be judged on the same grounds... i dont understand how anything can be worse than the fact these women feel the need to allow people to judge them purley on looks alone...

if they are willing to do that, what are they affraid of, a man makes a better looking woman than them?

all the guys going a little strange about the issue.. did you find your pride a little hurt when you realised that is a decent looking man?

Cool, maybe eventually there will be no women in the miss whatever contest,

This is big news here. Guess we don't have to focus on that F-35 fiasco that is going to cost us BILLIONS. I've heard this woman speak. Man(no pun), dumber that a bag of bricks. That said, the only pageant I follow is 32 teams from preseason to the Superbowl. So I really don't care.

Btw, transgender and gay are 2 different things.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by paradox
Transgender is the result of flawed childhood development where parents fail to reinforce the role of their child's gender identity and what should be socially acceptable for their sex. They may "try to stop it" as they grow of age and are able to interpret what should be acceptable norms, but the damage is already done by that time.
But what do I know? I only have a degree in cognitive psychology.

And is that universally accepted as fact? Cuz seems to me that the whole gay issue (which, I know, this is not) was recently de-pathologised (if that's a word) by the AMA.

Which is to say that its little (non-MD as a rule) brother psychology is not above being a little fuzzy around the margins, too. I'm not sure your assertion is above challenge, even within the field itself.

You are right. It's been debatable. Some say that it's possible transsexuals have longer versions of the androgen receptor gene which would be inefficient at communicating testosterone to the brain during fetal development (for males.)

However, there is much more evidence in developmental and cognitive psychology alike, showing that a child is a product of its environment and each stage of development must be addressed properly in order to assure the child develops normally. There is a lack of sufficient evidence supporting the former, but yes, you are right.

I'm not even going to get into the gay debate, though.

reply to post by dude69


Well it takes a lot of "balls" well let's use the term "guts" to admit I love what's inside her brain

Yes, she is technically a man but she looks hot!! Lives 24/7 as a woman and she gets a lot of attention when we go out!

She is the most. Beautifull person I have ever been involved with. Inside and out!!



Be safe people

Originally posted by paradox

Originally posted by viperdave
reply to post by paradox

 

Ok , try reading earlier posts, your statement just proves your ignorance

How mommy and daddy raise there kids have nothing to do with transgenderiism!! Most will try to stop it!!

But it won't work

LOL yeah right!
Transgender is the result of flawed childhood development where parents fail to reinforce the role of their child's gender identity and what should be socially acceptable for their sex. They may "try to stop it" as they grow of age and are able to interpret what should be acceptable norms, but the damage is already done by that time which is why they feel they are "trapped in the wrong body."

But what do I know? I only have a degree in cognitive psychology.

edit on 4-3-12 by paradox because: (no reason given)

A persons sex identity is enforced by the parents in early childhood seriously? What about the cases of boys who were born with "underdeveloped" genitalia, that were surgically turned into girls in infancy and raised as girls their entire childhood and yet they never identified as a girl, and when they got old enough went back to being a man. I guess your saying that the parent's just didn't reenforce it enough.

The fact is sex identification is far more complex then simply being about upbringing. And I would say if you really do have a degree in psychology and I doubt you do, you should burn it and also have any licenses you have pulled, your ignorance in this situation, shows that your degree is not worth the paper it's printed on and you may be a danger to your profession and your patients.

Now as far as the other bigoted comments all I can say is, it will be nice when science finally progresses to the point where they can begin switching chromosomes and actually make a seamless change for people who want to be the opposite sex and then those people can finally be free of the bigotry and hatred of the human race, and it will only be between them, their doctor and god. And really the only reason it's an issue in today's society is because, science hasn't yet progressed to that level yet, after all once it does and you can take a man, switch their chromosomes to xx, give them ovaries a uterus, allowing them to get pregnant and reproduce it won't be a n issue anymore because no one would know.

Not only that, but really people are so ignorant of nature, the fact is there are people born everyday with all kinds of variations of chromosomes and genders; people born with xxy, xyy, xxyy, and then you have androgen insensitivity disorder where you have people born xy and yet they look completely female even from birth, because the are immune to androgen, testosterone and other primarily male hormones. That condition always gives me a laugh when I hear bigoted homophobes going off, because they could have slept with a man and never known it.

Anyway, I for one will be glad when science will develop to the point to allow people to switch sexes completely, because then at least transgendered people will no longer suffer bigotry and ridicule and also another form of human bigotry will finally be irradiated and the world will always be better with less hate.

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools

A persons sex identity is enforced by the parents in early childhood seriously?

Doing a little bit of research might help you before you go blabbering about others (very obviously much more learned on the subject than yourself) being ignorant.

Gender socialization, or the process whereby a child learns the norms and roles that society has created for his or her gender, plays a significant role in the establishment of her or his sense of femaleness or maleness. If a child learns she is a female and is raised as a female, the child believes she is a female; if a child is told he is a male and is raised as a male, the child believes he is male.

Beginning at birth, most parents treat their children according to the appearance of their genitals. Parents even handle their baby girls less aggressively than their baby boys. Children quickly develop a clear understanding that they are either female or male, as well as a strong desire to adopt gender-appropriate mannerisms and behaviors. This understanding normally occurs within 2 years of age, according to many authorities. In short, biology sets the stage, but children's interactions with social environments actually determine the nature of gender identity.
Gender roles

Gender roles are both cultural and personal. These roles determine how males and females think, speak, dress, and interact within the context of society. Learning plays a role in this process of shaping gender roles. These gender schemas are deeply embedded cognitive frameworks regarding what defines masculine and feminine. While various socializing agents—educators, peers, movies, television, music, books, and religion—teach and reinforce gender roles throughout a child's life span, parents probably exert the greatest influence, especially when their children are very young.
www.cliffsnotes.com...

What about the cases of boys who were born with "underdeveloped" genitalia, that were surgically turned into girls in infancy and raised as girls their entire childhood and yet they never identified as a girl, and when they got old enough went back to being a man. I guess your saying that the parent's just didn't reenforce it enough.

I never said childhood development was the ONLY factor in gender identity. I was saying it is the most prominent. The cases you speak of must be extremely rare. Far too rare to use them as an example on the entire transgender community.

Could you link me to one?

The fact is sex identification is far more complex then simply being about upbringing. And I would say if you really do have a degree in psychology and I doubt you do, you should burn it and also have any licenses you have pulled, your ignorance in this situation, shows that your degree is not worth the paper it's printed on and you may be a danger to your profession and your patients.

I am not a clinical psychologist so don't worry little buddy. I simply have a degree and have done much more studying through my years in school in this field than you have. I really do not care what you doubt, you are no one to me but an anonymous big mouth on the internet. Boo hoo.

Sex identification really isn't all that complex at all. You're just trying to make it that way. Upbringing is the biggest factor.

Now as far as the other bigoted comments

Can you point out a bigoted comment? (I assume you're referring to me and not everyone else)
I have provided facts. It's not my fault you're butt hurt over it.

all I can say is, it will be nice when science finally progresses to the point where they can begin switching chromosomes and actually make a seamless change for people who want to be the opposite sex and then those people can finally be free of the bigotry and hatred of the human race, and it will only be between them, their doctor and god. And really the only reason it's an issue in today's society is because, science hasn't yet progressed to that level yet, after all once it does and you can take a man, switch their chromosomes to xx, give them ovaries a uterus, allowing them to get pregnant and reproduce it won't be a n issue anymore because no one would know.

Yes, then they would be the opposite sex.
Until then, they are not. They are just playing make believe.

Not only that, but really people are so ignorant of nature, the fact is there are people born everyday with all kinds of variations of chromosomes and genders; people born with xxy, xyy, xxyy, and then you have androgen insensitivity disorder where you have people born xy and yet they look completely female even from birth, because the are immune to androgen, testosterone and other primarily male hormones. That condition always gives me a laugh when I hear bigoted homophobes going off, because they could have slept with a man and never known it.

Most of your post is irrelevant. Maybe you would be better off in the rant forum.

Anyway, I for one will be glad when science will develop to the point to allow people to switch sexes completely, because then at least transgendered people will no longer suffer bigotry and ridicule and also another form of human bigotry will finally be irradiated and the world will always be better with less hate.

edit on 3-4-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

Agree!

reply to post by prisoneronashipoffools


Star for you!! Thanks you for the post!!!!

reply to post by paradox


I'll take my 25 pluss years of being involved in the transgendered community, seen first hand what bigotry and hate these people go through on a daily basis and all the papers and studying I have done through the years on this subject over your degree any day of the week

You can quote any book you want, and you will probably find some study's that say your right but try going out in person and talking to TG people and actualy hear first hand what they go through day to day and how the were raised by there parents and you will eat your own words!!!


I've seen it and heard it first hand

So should she be allowed to run in the olympics as a woman as well if [s]he were able?

This is simple, not complicated.

This is what happens when we disrespect language. We bowed to their demands to call them "women" because they said they just wanted to feel socially accepted, they didn't have an agenda.

They don't seem to get that we are merely calling them "women" to be polite, now it's gone to their heads that they truly are women: they aren't women, they are MEN.

Men cannot compete in beauty pageants designed for Women. That's the point. Females. XX chromosomes.

If we allow men to compete in beauty pageants, then there is no longer any point in calling it a "woman's beauty pageant". It's a human beauty pageant. And that my friends is a completely different pageant.

You give someone an inch, they take a mile. I say we reverse all these archaic laws allowing them to force this false use of language on us. They obviously do have an agenda: change our sexuality by making the meaning of "men" and "women" meaningless.

Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

There shouldn't be anything tricky about it. If it's a MISS Universe contest, then you have to have female DNA to be entered. If it's a MR Universe contest, then you have to have male DNA to be entered. Transgendered male who was female ... that's a 'miss' according to DNA. Transgendered female who was male ... that's a 'mr' according to DNA.

Sorry but I think it's pretty simple.

reply to post by viperdave


Sorry, emotions and empirical data don't really mix.

Seeing as gender identity is most often solidified between 2 and 4 years of age, I will take studies over personal accounts which they would not even be able to recall.

I am not a clinical psychologist so don't worry little buddy. I simply have a degree and have done much more studying through my years in school in this field than you have. I really do not care what you doubt, you are no one to me but an anonymous big mouth on the internet. Boo hoo.

reply to post by paradox


Good, I am glad you're not, at least you won't be dealing with patients.And really it goes both ways, your just an anonymous poster on the internet as well, the magical world where people can claim degrees and claim to be anything they want, much like I suspect you may be.

Sex identification really isn't all that complex at all. You're just trying to make it that way. Upbringing is the biggest factor.

Actually it is pretty complex, sorry you are ignorant to that. The fact is there are many factors to gender identification and upbringing actually doesn't seem to be that big a deal, after all there are tons of girls who grow up hating dresses, who dress like boys, they hate dolls and like to play with trucks etc and yet they don't grow up wanting to men, but I guess if upbringing and reenforcing gender stero-types, so important then they all should have or at least a large portion of them. Not only that looking back at another post you contradict yourself and agree there may be other factors to it besides upbringing.

You are right. It's been debatable. Some say that it's possible transsexuals have longer versions of the androgen receptor gene which would be inefficient at communicating testosterone to the brain during fetal development (for males.)

Add to that, other chromosomal disorders and even environmental factors like the prevalence of estrogen mimicing compounds in our food, water and plastic; which can cause behavioral changes as well as physical, yeah I would say it is a lot more complex then just simple upbringing.

Can you point out a bigoted comment? (I assume you're referring to me and not everyone else) I have provided facts. It's not my fault you're butt hurt over it.

Well, that was my fault I should have broken up the post the rest wasn't for you but, for the other people of the thread making very bigoted comments.

Most of your post is irrelevant. Maybe you would be better off in the rant forum.

As, for the rest of the post it isn't irrelevant because first it wasn't directly for you, though would say all of those disorders do factor into gender identity as well, so actually, I was wrong it would still be relevant for you as well; just more physical abnormalities that make gender identification even more complex then you claim. As, far as being in the rant forum it would have to be a thread not a post to go there of course in your arrogant brilliance I guess you should know the difference.