Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by ~Vixen~


I hate social issues. I really do. They are a distraction from what the 1% is doing to exploit society and cr*p up the planet.

Let me say very broadly that when a group desires inclusion in to society they generally agree to accept its strictures and limitations, albeit a bit broadened. Sometimes this has bad effects, like when the Irish accepted the racism of America but exempted themselves by adopting the label of "white." At the same time, the idea that a group would uphold some of the limits of society by asking for inclusion seems rational. African-Americans accepted the system that we might call "American values," their good and bad aspects. Even the high crime rates in the inner city are a kind of adoption of American values. Very little of "Africa" can be detected in the rampant individualism of rappers.

It stands to reason that asking for equal rights is also a request for equal responsibilities. Or, more to the point, they are a request for equal inclusion in to the attributes of a given society. Generally people who start out by demanding their rights have the good sense to say that they deserve it by virtue of their similarities to other upstanding members of society. That is why I would expect the gay and lesbian community to also want to uphold the boundaries of society while pressing to expand them in order to include themselves. I would think that they would actually want to be gender conservatives in many respects, especially considering how they often adopt gender specific norms themselves (with their own interpretations). It only stands to reason that "acceptance" means broadening the limits without abolishing them.

Intellectuals and artists can flaunt limits, but they have social standing to do so. Us'guys the ordinary peeps do not. In order to be accepted, we have to uphold a bunch of social norms and believe me I personally hate it. I find them oppressive. However, I understand the reasoning for it. I think that changing your gender by surgical means is a form of self-mutilation that I oppose along with designer babies, chimera's and other weird creepy things. If I have to adopt all sorts of norms that I find oppressive then I think that I have the right and standing to press claims myself. Gays and lesbians should be the first to oppose the high-jacking of their movement by those who press boundaries too far, just as immigrant groups were the first to proclaim their patriotism in times past (and as Mexicans today are strongly active in the military).

I need invoke no philosophical rationale for it other than the fact that I don't like it. Any beauty contest that upholds it I simply don't watch. I don't watch those things anyway because Donald Trump is probably the ugliest I have seen of any gender and can't stand his arrogance.

The idea that some abstraction called tolerance supercedes evolutionary biology may be true. I certainly oppose eugenics. However, I think that even there those being sterilized would assert commonality with other Americans in their struggles, not continual harping on differences to shock social norms. I may be intolerant, but since all I have seen from this society is intolerance toward broad groups of people I cannot understand how it is that America folds so easily on this one.

Let him compete as a woman if he wants but he is still a man in my book. But, that's me. I really could care less. Religion and "family values" issues are always used on both sides to distract from who is picking the pocket.

PS. Who actually watches these contests anyway?

reply to post by EarthEvolves


Most definitely NOT the extreme right wing "Christians" that hold their traditional gender roles, humbleness, modesty, and biblical quotes so close and dear I am sure. /sarcasm

I wonder if the reason some are so upset about her getting to compete is based on the fear they, or someone they hold dear, might actually not know she once had a male body, and become attracted to her during the meat parade.

reply to post by RyanFromCan


All I care about is truth in advertising (lol!). I just care about human biology and not having corporations ruling our bodies through technology, even in the name of "personal choice" which is really a set of urges they plant in us through advertisement.

Other than that, social issues are uninteresting to me. We have always had gays in our dear country to the south of you, and always will. I have always wondered about tackle football...

Originally posted by EarthEvolves
PS. Who actually watches these contests anyway?

Their relatives, I haven't watched one in years, but I remember when the beauty contest was a big deal, but back then we only had three networks,


What do you want to bet having transsexuals makes the ratings go up?

reply to post by RyanFromCan

someone they hold dear, might actually not know she once had a male body, and become attracted to her

Doubt it.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by EarthEvolves
PS. Who actually watches these contests anyway?

Their relatives, I haven't watched one in years, but I remember when the beauty contest was a big deal, but back then we only had three networks,

What do you want to bet having transsexuals makes the ratings go up?

Donald Trump in drag? No thanks.

I can't stand most of what Americans, and now most other countries, call "entertainment." Even NOVA has gone down hill now.

I think that we are all probably heading toward the same sexuality that the elites have always practiced, namely exploitative omni-sexuality. That is more frightening than anything.

Allow me to bow out of this thread if you don't mind. Some subject attract me. This one is too much information.

I don't get why its a tricky issue. ITS A MAN! Sorry but the PC BS has got to stop. How long before we have to allow anything someone claims to be true, so they don't have their feeling hurt.

Originally posted by scepter
I don't get why its a tricky issue. ITS A MAN! Sorry but the PC BS has got to stop. How long before we have to allow anything someone claims to be true, so they don't have their feeling hurt.

The LAW supercedes your opinion. They have recognized her as female. So it is tough cookies. Its not up to us to tell another person how to live if they are not harming anyone and hell she will not win anyway so whats the problem other than a hangup some people have.

As a dragon I see this as a huge victory for equal rights. Maybe I will live to see the day where they finally see them let dragons enter the contest. We have come so far and still so much farther to go.

Originally posted by scepter
I don't get why its a tricky issue. ITS A MAN! Sorry but the PC BS has got to stop. How long before we have to allow anything someone claims to be true, so they don't have their feeling hurt.

What's it to you? I'm serious - what do you care?

PC BS...you're talking about real human beings and real lives. You act as though accepting people the way they are is going to cost you something? What does it cost you?

PC BS is only intolerable if you are intolerant

Are you intolerant?

It's just as easy to be tolerant as it is intolerant - so, what about all the anti-PC BS?

I think it has got to stop

:-)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

PC BS...you're talking about real human beings and real lives. You act as though accepting people the way they are is going to cost you something? What does it cost you?

What does it cost hundreds, or thousands of little Canadian girls that cannot afford extensive surgery to compete on a pageant stage with a man? Do you suppose they have feelings? How would you like to be beat in a beauty pageant by a man?

Are we sending the message to our youth that they don't need to love themselves, and see their inner beauty, and be happy with who they are, and instead they need to do extensive surgery and lifelong medication to become something else? Should all the potential pageant contestants start saving up their allowance for nose jobs, breast enhancements, laser surgery, liposuction and more?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Wouldn't accepting people as they are mean no sex-change operations? No such thing as a post-op transgender newborn baby.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

Are we sending the message to our youth that they don't need to love themselves, and see their inner beauty, and be happy with who they are, and instead they need to do extensive surgery and lifelong medication to become something else? Should all the potential pageant contestants start saving up their allowance for nose jobs, breast enhancements, laser surgery, liposuction and more?

Um, that message sailed a long time ago.

Lot's of surgery on the female contestants already.

As I stated at the beginning. If they don't like it, they can change the rules. As the rules currently stand, Ms. Talackova is completely compliant.

reply to post by peck420

As I stated at the beginning. If they don't like it, they can change the rules. As the rules currently stand, Ms. Talackova is completely compliant.

Agreed. That was exactly my point way early on in this thread. If this person won then so be it. The contest should make rules against all surgical enhancements, otherwise it is really a best surgeon pageant, not a beauty pageant.

I still don't see surgery as a viable option for a psychological problem. Maybe lobotomies would help some people perform better as well, but it seems like overkill. What if we determine losing one kidney gives a nice yellow glow to the skin, do we start removing kidneys for cosmetic purposes?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by peck420

 

I still don't see surgery as a viable option for a psychological problem. Maybe lobotomies would help some people perform better as well, but it seems like overkill. What if we determine losing one kidney gives a nice yellow glow to the skin, do we start removing kidneys for cosmetic purposes?

I sure hope not. You just gave me the heebee jeebees just thinking about it.

reply to post by getreadyalready


so - you think all this is about beauty?

and a pageant?

really?

:-)

c'mon

Originally posted by DavidWillts
Wouldn't accepting people as they are mean no sex-change operations? No such thing as a post-op transgender newborn baby.

That's not entirely true. Surgery on newborns to "correct" sex related anomalies occur everyday. In essence making them post-op transsexual newborn babies.

The problem is that these surgeries are conducted without the consent of the child. The parents rushed attempt to "normalize" the child sex fails to take into consideration that gender is pre-determined, and that surgical construction of a neo-vagina to "normalize" the child suffering from micropenis is simply going to cause severe gender identity issues further down the line. When, not if, that child faces their gender issues, shouldn't they have the right to reclaim their true identity? Why or why not?

Stories about this sort of thing aren't widely circulated because of the stigma that society, including many here on ATS, places on them. Parents make hasty, and often erroneous, decisions to cover up the fact that their perfect child was born into a category that people like you would classify as "freakish and unnatural," and the children are left to suffer a lifetime of mental torment that no amount of therapy or counseling is going to fix.

If you were injured in an accident, suffered catastrophic damage to your sex organs, and awoke to find out that sex change surgery was performed without your consent to allow you a "normal" life as a member of the opposite sex, how many visits would it take before you accepted it? Would you fight for the right to reclaim your life as a member of the sex you knew in your heart you truly were? What many here advocate is saying "sorry, you are what you are now, so deal with it," and I believe that that is absolutely wrong.

Transsexuals don't all fall into the scenario listed above, but regardless, their sex and gender are incongruent, and surgery is simply the final solution to sync their gender and sex identity so that they can enjoy life as you and I do.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

so - you think all this is about beauty?

and a pageant?

really?

:-)

c'mon

edit on 4/10/2012 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)

Well, the pageant is a beauty pageant, and I'm pretty sure the idea that it might be won by a man was not considered at its inception.

Of course this controversy is not about beauty, but about politics. That is why I hate it so much. They should just make the event an all natural event, and anyone with cosmetic surgery should be disqualified in my opinion. It is these types of things ruining our youth and blurring all lines of humanity.

A person can get prosthetic biceps, pectorals, calves, liposuction, nose job, chin job, dermabrasion, hair implants, and look like prince charming if they want, but what is the purpose of that? What message does it send?

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Of course this controversy is not about beauty, but about politics. That is why I hate it so much. They should just make the event an all natural event, and anyone with cosmetic surgery should be disqualified in my opinion. It is these types of things ruining our youth and blurring all lines of humanity.

A person can get prosthetic biceps, pectorals, calves, liposuction, nose job, chin job, dermabrasion, hair implants, and look like prince charming if they want, but what is the purpose of that? What message does it send?

While I've been vocal in my support for Jenna Talackova's right to be treated fairly, I'm reluctant to agree that her pursuit of this contest was a prudent choice, and I dare say that I believe that her continued participation is damaging to the transsexual community.

"Miss Universe" is a BS title that was created to capitalize on and justify the continued exploitation of women. It celebrates and encourages vanity over qualities that personify what a real woman really is. By pursuing the Miss Universe title, I feel that Jenna in indirectly saying that vanity is her most important goal, and I feel that that message is being negatively construed by those less knowledgeable that transsexualism is nothing more than extreme transvestism. The message that transsexuality is about being true to ones nature is being lost to the erroneous belief that its all about playing dress up and strutting around in a bikini.