Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by Furbs


Obviously you know that situation better than I do, so your opinion is all that matters, but all 16 year olds are confused. I can't imagine allowing such a severe, dangerous, and life-altering surgery for someone that age.

I have a 19 year old nephew that is engaged, doesn't have a driver's license, has never had a job, and has dated many beautiful girls, but has suddenly decided to marry quasimoto? He is much older than 16, he has a lot of potential, he had a chance to join the military, and had a chance for the local sheriff's department to pay for his police academy with a guaranteed job at the end, but he let his sick mother convince him all of that was too dangerous, and all he does is sit at home and play video games and wait for his monstrous girlfriend to come pick him up for their nightly sex.

16 year olds, and 19 year olds, and even parents are not well equipped to make extreme decisions during the teen years where everything is so skewed by hormones and control struggles, and finding one's own identity and letting go of one's baby, etc., etc.

Of course just my opinion. I tried to insert myself into that situation as a good uncle, but I was quickly run out of the picture, so to each their own.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

if you identify yourself as a man - but you were born in a woman's body - you're going to spend the rest of your life trying to be what people expect you to be even though every natural instinct you have is telling you you're something else. Can you even imagine?

If that is true, then the problem isn't sexual identity, the problem is self-worth. I have never spent a minute of my life trying to be what people expect me to be. If one is raised with a lot of unconditional love, and self-confidence, then why would they try to fit any particular expectation of strangers?

Of course, if it were a child of mine in this situation, I might have to be creative to find places they felt comfortable enough to be their self. I'm not saying it is easy, but it doesn't require surgery. Surgery is for injuries and illnesses.

For full disclosure, my wife has had plastic surgery, LOL! She has breast implants, and I was against it, but she did it anyway, after her sister did it first. Of course, I enjoy the new toys, she went from mosquito bites to model, but I liked her just fine the way she was, I married her the way she was, and I didn't approve of the risk of surgery just to have a bigger selection of bikinis to choose from. Still, I love her unconditionally, and I said my piece, made my case, and then supported her decision.

To each their own, as I have said all along, but I don't approve.

reply to post by Arles Morningside


thank you, and the same to you

:-)

you know - I avoided this thread at first because I had this idea about what I would find here - and there has been enough of that - definitely enough of that...

but, what surprised me is how many people were supportive of this woman - and open to really discussing this issue. Even some people who aren't sure they can support this have shown up with some very positive and encouraging posts

have to say - this thread has reaffirmed my faith in humanity - for today anyhow :-)

It seems obvious that the only people who have a problem with this are terrified of their own sexuality;
"Wow! That guy gave me a woody"...
Predetermined/programmed attitudes over sexuality that NATURALLY appears in ALL shades, stripes, and persuasions is a tool of social engineering. Those of you who can't see past it will remain trapped in your own ignorance.

The post, several pages back "It's called Miss Universe, that says it all" is a nice observation.

Now if you really want something else, you could have "Christian-Defined Vulnerable Barbie Doll Sexual Stereotype" pageant, or "Closet Homosexually Approved for Safe and Church-Sanctioned Arousal" contests.

I doubt anyone with interfere with your little events.

reply to post by getreadyalready

If that is true, then the problem isn't sexual identity, the problem is self-worth. I have never spent a minute of my life trying to be what people expect me to be. If one is raised with a lot of unconditional love, and self-confidence, then why would they try to fit any particular expectation of strangers?

Self-worth doesn't change reality, it only helps you live with it. It seems this sort of thing always ends up being a moral fiber issue for some - a pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and embrace who and what you are kind of thing

In fact - this is exactly what Ms. Talakova has done - embraced who and what she is. I believe she only reached this point because she had support and love and encouragement - and acceptance - from her friends family and community early on in her life

Of course, if it were a child of mine in this situation, I might have to be creative to find places they felt comfortable enough to be their self.

It would be insulting of me to guess what you might do in that situation - but I'm still willing to bet that you would think this through more thoroughly if it were your own child. Knowing your child - you would see first hand the authenticity of their claims - their needs - their worries and fears. It's all abstract now - but if you know someone who is dealing with this personally, the obviousness of it all is, well - obvious

I'm not saying it is easy, but it doesn't require surgery. Surgery is for injuries and illnesses.

You're very strict. Is a cleft palate an injury - or an illness? :-)

Is this a psychological problem then - and nothing more than that? There isn't a shred of evidence to back up any claims that one can be born into a situation where you are not exactly this - or that? Congenital abnormalities (though I hate to use that word - abnormality) don't apply here?

To each their own, as I have said all along, but I don't approve.

well - anything more from me is just going to seem like proselytizing, so - we'll all have to agree to disagree to some extent

but, I'm fairly certain that as time goes on science will reveal more about us than we can even begin to guess at now - and these ideas we cling to will fall by the wayside

Trump has - though reluctantly - allowed her to compete. Sometimes good enough is good enough for now

:-)

Originally posted by lostinau
reply to post by Partygirl

 

This is a complete non issue. Trannies who wish to be identified as women should be treated as such, and if they're attractive enough to appear in a beauty contest then they're entitled to do so. Anything less is plain old discrimination. People who can't get their head around this are probably ignorant and bigoted. Many red blooded males find attractive feminine trannies very hot, and know that they'll get a lot more bang for their buck in bed as well.

Your argument about gay people ramming their lifestyle down your throat is a blatant lie and exposes you as an ignorant bigot. You rarely see public depiction of gay couples or gay sex anywhere in any media, as opposed to straight couples and straight sex, which you're bombarded with every day. The reality is that straight culture is rammed down gay peoples throats every day, but they'd never complain about this because they don't care, and straight people shouldn't care about the occasional depiction of gay lifestyle, however this makes all the homophobes and bigots go apoplectic. Fortunately this is changing, and soon most of the bigots will have died out.

edit on 8-4-2012 by lostinau because: .

edit on Sun Apr 8 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: Mod Note: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

She is identified as female and treated as female heck she looks like a female, but Miss Universe is a pageant for women that were BORN female and she was not born female so why should the rules be changed because of her. And the fact that the rules are being changed is an example in itself of the gay and transexual world being crammed down peoples throats. We cant even have a pageant restricted to natural born women without it being a close minded and prejudiced organization. Plus it isnt really fair because now this transexual can participate in woman, transexual, and men pageants and neither naturally born women or men can participate in transexual pageants.

Originally posted by eyesontheskies
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

Im just saying that the miss universe pageant is for people who were BORN female and she was not, so the rules shouldnt be changed because her feelings get a little hurt.

As I understand from the Canadian media (it is after all, taking place here dare i say) the application did not ask if the person was BORN a woman, but rather, were they a woman, and legally, she is a woman, so she did not lie on the application. Not only that, but she had been in the media before, so it is not like nobody knew and it was some kind of big shocking revelation.

reply to post by RyanFromCan


It did ask if she was born a female. There wouldnt have been a problem if it just asked if she was a woman. I just want to make it clear that i do not have anything against transgendered people. I believe that jenna truly is a female inside and out but i just dont think it is right for a transexual to be in a pageant that was not meant for transexuals.

" the pageant that states all competitors must be "naturally born" females."
laist.com...

reply to post by getreadyalready

It's not close-mindedness. I believe the people feel the way they feel, I believe some kids have better attention spans than others, I believe some people are sad all the time, I believe some people identify more with the opposite sex than their own. I just don't think all of those things need a name and a pill to correct them. The current mental health trend is to identify any behavior that is outside "the norm" and then give it a name, and then work on a way to correct it.

I will use the analogy of alcoholism to help you understand. If your drinking does not harm others, does not affect your school, home, work or social life or you ability to socialize, you don't have a problem or serious problem. When your drinking starts to affect your personal, school, work or puts other people in harms way (not just physical) then you have a problem, add to that the inability to walk away from a drink, or the inability to control your drinking, then you are an alcoholic

I am well aware that children are naturally curious, fidgety, and full of energy, but if their levels are beyond that "normal" or the ability to focus it in a non-destructive manner, and it starts affecting not only their ability to learn and live, but those abilities of those around them, there is a problem. Now, I am the last to advise or condone the wholesale use of pills to "correct" these problems, but in these situations, a problem does exist that needs to be worked with, identified, and a suitable course of action taken. For me, it was the removal of outside distractions (toys, sounds, non-associated distractions) but not medication, but y case was not severe, plus, I am from the generation before it became "popular" to prescribe, often over-perscribe pills to handle these issues. I guess I am also a bit lucky in that my parents really cared, and not only that, but were both former school teachers, so they had skills that some don't.

Originally posted by eyesontheskies
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

It did ask if she was born a female. There wouldnt have been a problem if it just asked if she was a woman. I just want to make it clear that i do not have anything against transgendered people. I believe that jenna truly is a female inside and out but i just dont think it is right for a transexual to be in a pageant that was not meant for transexuals.

" the pageant that states all competitors must be "naturally born" females."
laist.com...

Miss Universe Canada - Become A Contestant

Nowhere on this form does it even ask the gender, now I realize it is not the main "application" and end all-be all, and I have tried searching for the "application" and rules to little or no avail.

I still have not seen any source that states categorically or unequivocally (from an absolutely reliable source, not just any source is reliable, if it were, this site would have no reason to exist) that she was removed because she Lied about not being a "natural born woman" but rather, just because she was transgendered.

CBC.ca Player - CBC "The National" news report

This is not only an "emotionally" based issue here as many seem to think, it is also a legal issue, and she is recognized by law as a woman, and as such, has the protection from discrimination as a woman afforded to her by the law. I happen to dislike these "meat markets" but if the organizers don't like the laws of this country because they do not like that they protect someones right to be considered a woman, then they should either consider lobbying TPTB to have them changed, change the competition rules, or consider not holding the competition.

Originally posted by eyesontheskies

" the pageant that states all competitors must be "naturally born" females."
laist.com...

Is there such a thing as being unnaturally born? As long as her mom didn't give birth via c-section I'd say she should be good to go.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Furbs

 

I have a 19 year old nephew that is engaged, doesn't have a driver's license, has never had a job, and has dated many beautiful girls, but has suddenly decided to marry quasimoto? He is much older than 16, he has a lot of potential, he had a chance to join the military, and had a chance for the local sheriff's department to pay for his police academy with a guaranteed job at the end, but he let his sick mother convince him all of that was too dangerous, and all he does is sit at home and play video games and wait for his monstrous girlfriend to come pick him up for their nightly sex.

16 year olds, and 19 year olds, and even parents are not well equipped to make extreme decisions during the teen years where everything is so skewed by hormones and control struggles, and finding one's own identity and letting go of one's baby, etc., etc.

Sounds to me like there are more issues at work here than meets the eye with you. I am sorry, but what you consider "quasimoto" [sic] can be the love of his life, seems to me to be rather shallow of someone to oppose the marriage choices of someone else just because you don't find them physically attractive, that is more than a little shallow.

I drove truck long haul for 8 years before my mother and father begged me to stop, I had 2 incidents that turned out well, but statistically should not have, they felt there was little chance of me walking away a third time (and I happen to agree)*, out of respect for my parents, and the stress on them, i left the long haul industry, I do still work in the trucking industry as a driver, but the conditions are different, I might go back once my father passes, but not sure, but while he is still here, I am not going to impose that stress on him, it would probably result in his end, something that is not all that far away as it is. Who are you to declare your nephews mother is sick, or that his girlfriend is "monstrous"?

I would never dream of countering my brother or his wife with how and what they taught their kids or the values they instilled unless they were in immediate danger, and then I would go to the authorities, I would not dream of meddling by trying to convince my niece or nephew to disregard or dismiss their parents, that is utterly disrespectful.

At the risk of getting mod-spanked, I can totally understand why you were run out of the picture as you put it, I would have done the same, and not in a very nice manner. If I had not read your other posts here, I would have just put you down as a troll trying to illicit an emotional response, but your other posts tell me that you are not, but rather a very sad person.

reply to post by RyanFromCan


When I say the girlfriend is "monstrous" and the mother is "sick," I mean both literally and figuratively. The girlfriend is ugly, but she is also not a nice person, she is a mean-spirited and manipulative person, she has bad habits he doesn't need to get into, and she older than him, and she is trying to get pregnant by him, even though he doesn't have a job, or a drivers license, and they aren't married yet. The other girls he dated were attractive, sweet, the same age as him, and with realistic expectations for their young lives. The situation is monstrous, and he is being manipulated by this woman and by his mother, and it is wrong, and his mother is sick for having put him in the situation.

His mother has 6 kids from 4 fathers, she has a wonderful husband that works hard and raises all the kids as his own, but she is out peddling herself as a submissive on the leather scene while the husband is taking care of the finances, raising the kids, working hard and trying to love her anyway. When she is at home, she is totally dominant over the whole family to the point that it is almost abusive. She constantly has fake illnesses of one kind or another, heart attacks, cancer, diabetes, stroke, whatever it takes to get pain meds and sympathy. She is quite literally and figuratively sick.

Now, they have every right to tell me to butt out, which they did and I respected. But, they also still come to my house to parties, and they still call me for advice from time to time when it comes to cars or houses or healthcare, so they don't get to have it both ways. If they want my advice, they get all of my advice, they don't get to cherry pick the stuff they agree with and tell me to shut up about the rest. So, its their choice whether or not they call, or whether or not they show up at my house. They spent the entire day there yesterday, mother, son, quasimoto, 4 other kids, and poor husband, (along with about 30 other guests) and it was a nice time, and everyone co-existed well, and 8 grown men tried to talk the boy out of the marriage. It is a mistake, it is easy for anyone to see, in fact, it is a mistake for him to still be living in his mother's house and doing his mother's bidding like a little robot, and they were both told as much, but of course they don't listen.

I've offered to let him live in my house, I've offered to take off work and take him to get his driver's license, and I set up a lunch between me, him, and a retired Navy recruiter to get him coached up before he goes back to his recruiter, but he stood me up for the driver's test, and the lunch. Momma's orders.

He will end up being an overly medicated, unemployed pill head, and a burden on society if he doesn't get out of that house soon, and I don't really care if my opinion is politically correct or not.

Let me comment on the OP. I believe that sex change operations are tampering with the natural balance. I could care less about what gender someone "feels" that they are. An organism deals with what it is and the real test of strength is to fulfill your ecological niche and not over-pollute or under-perform.

A man evolved to be a man and a woman evolved to be a woman.

I am referring to surgical operations or genetic tampering and not the issue of gay marriage which is one issue that I could care less about since marriage seems to have been made irrelevant by the selfishness of most homo sapiens in the world.

Originally posted by EarthEvolves
Let me comment on the OP. I believe that sex change operations are tampering with the natural balance. I could care less about what gender someone "feels" that they are. An organism deals with what it is and the real test of strength is to fulfill your ecological niche and not over-pollute or under-perform.

A man evolved to be a man and a woman evolved to be a woman.

I am referring to surgical operations or genetic tampering and not the issue of gay marriage which is one issue that I could care less about since marriage seems to have been made irrelevant by the selfishness of most homo sapiens in the world.

Are sex change operations tampering with natures balance? How do we determine what that balance consists of?

Evolution doesn't happen overnight, and people are born everyday that defy any black and white boxes that society prefers to put them in. My opinion remains that there is no universal way to deal with this issue, and the only way to treat everyone fairly is to respect their right to self determination.

Claims are made that we are all male or female... but what about:

- a person that is born with a penis but has XX chromosomes and believes that they are female. They are classified as male by virtue of genitalia, but that determination can be disputed based on the other factors.

- a XY person born without a penis.

- a true hermaphrodite with ambiguous genitalia and an abnormal chromosomal karotype.

These are all exceptions to the rule, and yet they happen every day. Despite lack of consensus of what determines a persons sex, should society make a non-changeable sex determination based on our limited scientific understanding of this subject? What if society gets it wrong? Do you allow corrections in such circumstances?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Furbs

 

Obviously you know that situation better than I do, so your opinion is all that matters, but all 16 year olds are confused. I can't imagine allowing such a severe, dangerous, and life-altering surgery for someone that age.

Hiya getready

I normally don't get involved in these types of threads so much ... but just to correct a few minor things ...

Seen a few quotes about life threatening surgery, and also quotes regarding '25k of surgery' etc ... but a lot of trans therapy at an age around or before puberty is primarily hormonal. If a person makes such a decision later in life it's a lot harder on the physical risks. There is of course the increased chance of suicide etc also ... but that's a whole other thing ...

In the early stages the hormonal changes can be reversed in the short term, and corrected in the long term in the event of a 'mistake'. Most people under going a journey like that are under constant psychiatrict supervision from more than one doctor. I've been out of research in this area for a while, but the rates of error are surprisingly low.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with it entirely, just providing information that might otherwise be lost in the clutter.

Originally posted by ~Vixen~
- a true hermaphrodite with ambiguous genitalia and an abnormal chromosomal karotype.

You bring up some really good points, though true hermaprhodites are rare ... intersex people are incredibly common, however ... and we still have quite a margin for error when we have intersexed persons 'corrected' at birth.

Ultimately though, I think you'll find this thread is falling into that trap that all these social issues do ... Very few people are well read enough, or researched enough to have an opinion on the wider issue. The more narrow issue, in my mind, is really up to those people running the pagent.

I can see a female boxer that used to be a man having a huge advantage transitioning late in life ... I can see that starting male and moving to female and entering a pagent is challenging ... I don't believe the person has any particular unfair advantage over the other contestants who are also surgically altered and using the technology of many beauty products ... that's me personally.

However, I also find the image these women project off putting, stereotype enforcing, and the entire concept of the competition confusing though I respect anyone that applies themselves to a goal / sport and achieves it I guess.

It's a bit like body building ... I don't quite get it, but okay!

reply to post by Pinke

Seen a few quotes about life threatening surgery

Thanks. I am being a little overly dramatic in my posts, but it is for a good reason. I see patient deaths through my job everyday. Things as simple as a first dental checkup for a child ending in death. There are dozens of plastic surgery deaths, botox disfigurements, liposuction deaths, lip injection deaths, and unthinkable abuses that people often suffer.

Gender reassignment is a fairly serious surgery, and I have seen some horrendously botched surgerires, but I'm sure the majority of them go well.

Since I don't agree with the surgery in the first place, then of course the risk seems far too serious compared to the payoff. I don't believe the surgery will cure all their anguish, and it is likely the constant monitoring and counseling that has the lasting effect, so why risk the surgery?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Pinke

 

Gender reassignment is a fairly serious surgery, and I have seen some horrendously botched surgerires, but I'm sure the majority of them go well.

Since I don't agree with the surgery in the first place, then of course the risk seems far too serious compared to the payoff. I don't believe the surgery will cure all their anguish, and it is likely the constant monitoring and counseling that has the lasting effect, so why risk the surgery?

Don't disagree the surgery can be serious, but is not a major part of the equation, and many more young trans persons will opt to go without it than a lot of people realise for precisely the reasons you indicate. Note, however, the most risky surgeries are the aesthetic ones. Genital aesthetic changes are often final surgeries if undertaken at all.

Regarding your general belief ... Keep in mind I'm out of the loop when it comes to trans research, but at least when I was last up to date in this topic, trans therapy, even the most minor therapy, has evidenced a positive effect on most patients in comparison to those trans people that take absolutely no action at all.

Like I indicated in my earlier post, 99.5% of people in this thread likely don't have enough information to comment on this topic at all. By asking these questions I suppose at least you're moving into that upper percentile perhaps.

reply to post by getreadyalready

quasimoto?

OMG, LOL

I still think we should let the women have their beauty contest.

reply to post by getreadyalready


The simple answer is.. sex.

The penis becomes pretty much useless after a year or two on hormones (if not just a few months.) as do the testicles (which can be removed as SRS or as a separate and obviously much simpler surgery). Top that on that most don't want to use or have their penis anyways.

Also, there is the whole aesthetic piece. I'm sure that most have read the regret cases, but this is few in number and most comment that they wish they had done it much sooner.