Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Furbs

 

I will do as I please sir, this debate transcends lines that include my faith. I respect your opinions just like I expect you to respect my opinions. If you don't like hearing about the word that's fine don't read my post then, I am a christian and such I will take the Lord's side in arguments. If you really want to debate God so bad, then read the bible and compare your views against his word. But starting an argument on here about my faith is not my intended goal for this thread. From now on I will ignore your posts because you seem to have nothing to add and just want to tear down my beliefs. Have a good day sir and hopefully you let God into your life one day.

I respect your right to have an opinion, even if I think your opinion is flawed. I was in seminary at St. John's for 3 semesters. I know plenty about the "good book". I read what "God" wanted to say and I found it lacking. If you are going to bring the Bible into this, at least make it appropriate.

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God." Deuteronomy 22:5

God doesn't want us to dress in women's clothes.. kind of weird.. but okay.

"He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1

Don't get your testicles wounded or have your penis cut off. Noted!

So, certainly Deuteronomy is to be respected at all times!

So.. women that dress like men are immediately going to hell. Noted.
Testicular cancer? Hell.

Pretty rough stuff.

reply to post by Furbs


I wonder what defines men and womens clothes..

as clearly perceptions of male and female clothing are entirely identified by society. What's god's standard of clothing then? Surely someone has gotten that wrong between the many different styles of clothes from culture to culture.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by Furbs

 

I would wonder who god is more concerned about.

The Transsexual Woman, or Man that is just trying to live a relatively peaceful and normal life, in the process not really hurting or bothering anyone.

Or the people sit around and turn devolve when confronted with such issues, and scream and yell about the fags, and do everything in their power to insult that person's existence.

God is only in the heart of the person that believes he exists, so God truly is a representation of the individual espousing his word. I have seen great things done and said in the name of God. I have also seen some real stupidity. However, I truly feel that an idiot is going to be an idiot regardless of his belief in a deity. It is easy to blame the deity. We do this a lot as a people. There are some of us that blame Allah and the Muslims for some of the idiots in their fold. We blame Yahweh and the Christians for their idiots. The Atheists are blamed for theirs. It's all equal amounts of stupid, really.

To answer your question, to the religious transexual, God is not pleased with the intolerance.
To the religious fag-basher, God is not pleased with the homosexual.

Both are wrong and both are right, why? Because God is personal to each of them, as God is a construct each has created to attempt to make their way through the world.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by Furbs

 

I wonder what defines men and womens clothes..

as clearly perceptions of male and female clothing are entirely identified by society. What's god's standard of clothing then? Surely someone has gotten that wrong between the many different styles of clothes from culture to culture.

God actually turned that over to JCPenney in the late 19th century. Just keep to the racks at JCPenney and you really can't go wrong.

Originally posted by denynothing

If you acknowledge the ability to change your sex with surgery than you are challenging God's choice of our genders. Even though you are right to call out the judgement you must acknowledge that by him changing his gender he in affect made a statement that says, "God you were wrong, but the surgery can fix that." God is never wrong.

We are God's workmanship, his masterpiece, he knew each of us before we were born. Do you really think the ever knowing and ever powerful God would make a mistake about someones gender? If you believe him to be perfect then no he couldn't have.

What a bunch of brainwashed religious horse#. Take off the blinders and realize that not everyone is perfect. We all have our imperfections, and one of the biggest challenges that we face as human beings is how we deal with with life under adverse conditions.

Who are you to decide what your gods plan is for transsexuals? Do you have conclusive evidence that the challenges they face are not intended by your god to be a test of their patience and willingness to live a honorable life despite the tumultuous challenges they face? If your god never intended for sex reassignment to take place, why did he allow man to develop the practice? If he intended for all people to be perfect, then why is there so much turmoil throughout the world? If we were all perfect then there would be no war or disease.

Your wonderful and unerring god allowed my daughter to be born with a congenital heart defect that took her life when she was only 3 months old. To make things worse, he made me a pediatric surgeon who cures children with that affliction, but denied me the opportunity to save the one patient that meant the most in the world to me. Is that the perfect plan you speak of? What about my husband, who didn't have a negative thing to say about anyone, who held no prejudices, and truly led a life by example that your Jesus would be proud of... He was taken from me at age 41, in excellent health, yet suffered a massive heart attack. Was that an example of your gods perfect plan? Your all loving god put me through hell dealing with these horrible challenges, yet I continued to work tirelessly to help others until he decided to play yet another cruel joke and afflict me with career ending, incurable Parkinsons disease. Is that an example of you perfect world where all things work as intended? If so, you can have it and the god you hold in such high regard. I want nothing to do with it.

While on earth we all face challenges, and I believe that it's our responsibility to follow our heart and find happiness wherever possible. If surgery and a new life is what would make you happy, then you I think its a sign from god indicating the right path to follow.

reply to post by Furbs


Deuteronomy is from the Old Testament, meaning that Jesus took all punishment even the ones found in the Old Testament. So no, a man without a Penis or Testicles will not go to Hell as long as they believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. So that argument is invalid.

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Furbs

 

Deuteronomy is from the Old Testament, meaning that Jesus took all punishment even the ones found in the Old Testament. So no, a man without a Penis or Testicles will not go to Hell as long as they believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. So that argument is invalid.

Great, so if Jesus made the sins of Deuteronomy invalid (which I knew.. I just wanted you to play along, because that is the fun of online forums).. God doesn't have anything against men dressing up in women's clothes, or vice versa, as long as they believe Jesus is their lord and savior.

So, I really don't see what you are thinking that God is having a problem with.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


I'm sorry for your loss, I can't begin to imagine how it feels to lose the two most important in your life. So I won't try to patronize you there. I only hope your husband accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior at some point in his life.

The best answer I can give you is that God doesn't cause bad things to happen, Jesus took the punishment for all sin forever. So he isn't punishing you, bad things happen to good people because sin runs rampant on this Earth. Meaning sadness and death run rampant because of Adam and Eve.

The Lord still loves you regardless of how you feel about him, God has a plan for you and your loved ones. When you pass he will divulge that plan to you and show you where he intervened and turned your life. Honestly now is not the time to turn from the Lord, it is the time to turn to the Lord. Give the Lord all of your pain and baggage he can deal with better than you can.

Now to get this thread back on track, I am only using the bible in the manner it was written

reply to post by Furbs


No the rules are still in place, Jesus did not come to abolish the rules but to complete them. Meaning he took the punishment for the rules. However the rule is still in place, its just you are not condemned to the old rule that "the wages of sin are death." Jesus freed us from that rule, but he did not free us from not sinning, only an avenue to get to heaven.

Originally posted by denynothing
reply to post by Furbs

 

No the rules are still in place, Jesus did not come to abolish the rules but to complete them. Meaning he took the punishment for the rules. However the rule is still in place, its just you are not condemned to the old rule that "the wages of sin are death." Jesus freed us from that rule, but he did not free us from not sinning, only an avenue to get to heaven.

So, now you are backtracking on your statement, I see. This is typical bait and switch.

1. Jesus died for all sins so you can get into heaven.
2. You can't get into heaven unless you believe in Jesus.
3. Not believing in Jesus is a sin.
4. Goto 1.

Either Jesus died for my sin to dress like a woman, or he didn't. That's all of it or none of it.

The end. That is all. Nothing more to be said about it. Jesus did this or he didn't. If he didn't there is no reason to talk about him, because he is ineffectual, and 'God' punishes people for dressing like women and getting their penises cut off.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


Sorry I forgot some of things you posted so I had to reread it. You are right however I do not know his intimate plan for anyone person. I don't know why he created you the way he did or made you into the person you are. All I know is that to him you are a masterpiece. Meaning to him you don't need to change your looks as you were crafted by him. So that is where I pull in the argument against sex reassignment, it seems to against God because God created you the way he wanted you.

Why did God allow for the surgery to come to fruition? Well now I can't say exactly why because I am not him and it'd be a sin to pretend as if I am. However, if he stopped one sin he would have to stop all sins, because to him all sins are equal. I know its tricky to understand, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care. He is a loving father that will allow us to reap what we sow.

reply to post by Furbs


He did die for your sins, he took the punishment for your sins. He took the punishment so that every time you sin you can be forgiven from by him and still can get into heaven. Its the gift God gave us, but it doesn't mean you can just go out and kill people because its still a sin. By accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we have basically taken an oath to follow his rules from both the new and old Testament. Look up to him as a way to live life the correct way.

So yes in a sense he did die and took the punishment for you to wear girl's clothing, but that doesn't mean its not still a sin. Think of it like this, you have a get out of jail free card so you kill someone and use the card to avoid jail. Its still wrong and you must deal with the reprecussions of that action, you just won't go to jail because of that action.

This is a hard topic, because yes I do understand your argument and yes I have wondered exactly what you are questioning me about right now. It is hazy a bit, but I hope the get out of jail free card made a little bit of sense.

reply to post by denynothing


If I could propose..

How do we know that it isn't god's plan for someone to receive a sexual reassignment surgery?

Also, a bottom surgery is less common.. Most just have hormones, and usually breast augmentation. Sometimes older people will have facial surgery as well (and maybe younger? Seems that most look pretty good when they start young.)

I don't know if anyone has made this point as I haven't read the entire thread.

Look at the myriad of ways the human body can go wrong. People are born blind, people are born without limbs, some with extra limbs. Some people have multiple personalities, some people have bad hearts. This is barely scratching the surface. Medical dictionaries are not small pamphlets, they are huge books. So is it really inconceivable that someone could be born idetifying to one gender in the opposite genders body? If it can go wrong, it has gone wrong in someone, somewhere. Thats the unfortunate nature of life.

Its pure ignorance to claim this is a perversion, a choice. A blind person does not choose it. A down's syndrome sufferer does not choose it. A person with 6 fingers on one hand does not choose it. Why the hell can't people just accept we are all different, and let others just live their lives?

reply to post by Miraj


All I know is that God knew you before you were born, and created you the way he wanted you to look like to achieve the goals and plan he had set out for you. I can't really answer your question because I am not God so I can't sit here and tell you something that isn't mentioned in the bible because that is his word and I can use that for my evidence. I can't really say what his plan would be for the person in your proposition. You win the argument against me because I can't answer you. But if you want the real answer, pray to the lord and he will respond with the answer.

Originally posted by denynothing
But if you want the real answer, pray to the lord and he will respond with the answer.

How about you pray and get back to us. I have tried, and he doesn't seem to have my number.

reply to post by Furbs


He responds to all prayers, maybe you just haven't realized. If you don't mind me asking, why is it that left seminary?

reply to post by denynothing


It was simply a theoretical situation. I am suggesting that perhaps transgendered people by your logic could still be following gods plan for them. It's impossible to know where the line is drawn when medical intervention is involved.. As the argument could just as easily be made that taking blood pressure medication is not following god's plan, and that god wanted the person taking it to have high blood pressure.

reply to post by denynothing


God has given Man free will. Right or wrong,who are you to JUDGE someone elses life?
I find it Ironic that those who put their beliefs,and Faith in God,and his teachings,try to Judge EVERYONE based on their own interpretation of his Laws.The finial verdict will be Gods,not yours. That is the ONLY fact ,you need to recognize,when trying to Judge someone elses.

reply to post by denynothing


Because God isn't real.
God doesn't exist.
God doesn't answer prayers.

I was devout for 24 years. DId it all. I believe but never heard God once. I thought it would happen, believed it would happen, and it never did. If you can truly say God answers your prayers, that's great. I won't believe you, of course, but to each his own. Only you know the truth of what you say.

However, if God hasn't spoken to you.. why are you still trying?