'Honour' violence is acceptable, say one in five young British Asians

Originally posted by Gorman91
I smack kids when they get out of line.

Suck it up.

But do you slap your wife?

I hope not.

'Honour' crimes are domestic abuse, plain and simple

There is a very real issue of violence towards women in British Asian society, but let's not dress it up as something cultural

This week's Panorama, Britain's Crimes of Honour, made for harrowing viewing. In the space of 30 minutes, the programme recounted horrific murders of women in the UK.

The Guardian

Did anyone spot the code word again? British 'Asian' society.

That is somewhat insulting to Chinese and Japanese people. They don't honour kill their women folk. It's the Muslims who do that. Well 91% of honour killings worldwide.

My view on ending ALL immigration from anywhere should be coupled with total amnesty for people already here, and an honoring of America's indigenous and hispanic heritage.

My belief is about the carrying capacity of the land, not any kind of cultural issue. If anything, the Native Americans are the "real Americans."

Enough said.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by ollncasino

 

You are seriously defending violence carried out by Muslims in pursuit of their family honour, as defined by their medieval view of the world while living in the West? Well, I admire your honesty but I feel you are somewhat an apologist for Islamic violence against their women folk.

I smack kids when they get out of line.

Suck it up.

He was asking directly about the violence carried out against Muslim women and children mainly. There is a link on this thread showing some terrible cases. Hitting isn't OK either.

And you answer with a misdirection?

What are you hiding in your post?

Because that is not a suitable answer!

reply to post by joewalker


But why did you mention them?

I'm talking about "British Asians"

reply to post by ollncasino

But do you slap your wife? I hope not.

That depends on the context. I wouldn't. Some people, both members of a relationship, consent to it for their own pleasures. You don't have the right to do anything until something is done against their will. Just as it is in Asiatic culture. Someone dishonors you, you restore your honor by defending yourself.


See you mix straws with what is wrong to try and justify making a whole thing wrong. This is called bad reasoning, and in fact a failure of logic on your part.

reply to post by Unity_99


Except he uses one instance to o against all instances. A flawed logic.

As for hitting, it's not ok, but I do it when people provoke me without reason. I care little for who they are. Only that they stop doing provocations.

And upon the rare time, it has become necessary to intervene in others lives with fists in order to prevent harm.

For such cases, I feel no err in keeping both my own honor and the victim's by promptly putting the face of an aggressor to the ground.

reply to post by ollncasino


HONOUR
If you're American HONOR
If you're stupid - WOMAN ABUSE

Honour is a thing of such hatred that you would wonder why it has such a high place in society. For instance, in the good old days, men would duel to defend their honour. Stupid things... really stupid things could lead a man to thinking his life was less worthy than the disrespect shown to him. Honour is the thing that makes men kill other men for honour of country. Honour is what men feel make them more important. Today it the TAG on the wrist in Western Standards, you will respect a man more because of his possessions. Such honour must be shown. Honour is definately linked to testostorone, as it's always about how a man's legacy is perceived and not about how they protect those around them. Men have an ancient way of behaving that I pray to God will one day stop. I have seen men leer at women in a most dishonourable way, but it is not a woman's right to have honour in this world, it is a man's world. Honour is the ego of men.

reply to post by ollncasino

Did anyone spot the code word again? British 'Asian' society.

Once again Olln, the Survey was comprised of people of Asian heritage(Bangladeshi, Indian, Pakistani). Would you have been happier if the headline had read: 92% of British Asians who happen to be muslim believe it is never right to physically assault a female family member due to 'so called' honour'?

You posted the Comres survey and obviously believe the results to be valid...The survey shows that, in the UK, attitudes are being changed as the authourties understand this stupid honour concept isnt limited to muslims:

Taken from from your Guardian link:

There is a tendency in the west to see so-called honour killings as exclusively related to specific cultural traditions. They are often depicted as culturally specific to Muslim communities although they are not, in fact, restricted to any particular religion, culture, type of society or social stratum. In its report on harmful practices, for instance, the charity Imkaan reported a case of a Traveller woman forced to leave her community due to "honour-based violence"

If this discussion is now moving into domestic violence against women, what do you make of the UN statement that in America, home of the brave, a women is assaulted by her partner every 15 seconds?
or this posted earlier by Glad to be here:

On average, two women in England and Wales are killed every week by a current or former male partner.
One incident of domestic violence is reported to the police every minute.

Mclaneinc may be surprised to find that one in five women in Northern Ireland has experienced domestic violence...what was your headline again?

I've posted before that, worryingly, you and I agree on far more than we disagree...we both agree that so called 'honour' and domestic violence is unacceptable...

Your survey says that 92% of muslims polled do NOT agree it is right to to physically punish a female member of the family if she brings dishonour to her family or community...FACT

I think there's a bit of confusion about domestic violence and honour killings.

Quite a few years ago I used to run a door in a club in a town just north of where I live.
After getting to know some of the female bar staff etc I was quite alarmed to realise that domestic violence was practically the accepted norm.

However, I'm not aware of a single instance where anyone killed a member of their own family for a perceived insult to the family's honour due to unwillingness to enter into a pre-arranged marriage, entering into a relationship with someone from a different religion or culture, pre-marital sex etc.

I certainly don't intend to trivialise domestic violence, it is totally unacceptable, but to compare it to honour killings is a bit like comparing apples and pears.

Originally posted by davesmart

Originally posted by torqpoc

Originally posted by ollncasino
The newspaper report uses the word 'Asian'. While in the USA this has a wider meaning, in the UK it is now a code word for 'Muslim', particularily Pakistani Muslims.

Hi OP,
Ok I don't agree with honour violence, but you're spreading disinformation.

In the UK Asian is NOT used as a code word for Muslim. Muslim is used as a word for Muslims. Never read or heard such rubbish, and yes I live in the UK and yes I live in areas with a lot of Muslims and a lot of Asian Muslims and a lot of non Muslim Asians.

Asians is used to group peoples from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc..

*shakes head*

T

your wrong
speaking from first hand experience
half of you have not a clue what your talking about
do you live in britain?
do you live in condenced areas where you feel out of place (midlands and london, birmingham is so feked up)
are you a white british person whom has sufferd racial abuse at numerous times by young Muslims
i can answer YES

Firstly it is you're wrong (shortened version of you are, not possessive pronoun your). You show you're not that well educated straight off the bat mate. I have lived and worked in Slough and Birmingham, got anything else you'd like to say now?

You are a racist and you're talking claptrap. Asian is not synonymous for Muslim anywhere other than in your little mind. Stop being an arse and start to think rationally before you cause more harm.

You are also unable to read since you ask if I live in Britain, when I saw I do, and ask if i've lived in Asian and Muslim rich areas when I say I have. Dumb dumb dumb.

T

reply to post by ollncasino


I may be no friend to radicalism or religion and be French, but one thing I am not is a racist or an idiot.

In every single post and link you've made the term Asian is used to describe the country of origin. Not the religious orientation.

Maybe you should read yourself because you and the OP are spreading hate.

T

I don't trust "stats" one bit if any of you remember the video nasty outrage in the 80's you will remember stats which said 8 out of 10 kids have seen a video nasty, but when another team asked the kids questions like have you seen this film (They then made up a films name) the kids said "yeah we have seen it" even though no film existed.
The kids just wanted to look cool infront of their mates.
Could the same be said for the young men asked in this survey?

Originally posted by torqpoc
I may be no friend to radicalism or religion and be French, but one thing I am not is a racist or an idiot.

In every single post and link you've made the term Asian is used to describe the country of origin. Not the religious orientation.

I think you mean the region of origin. Almost all of these people were Pakistani in origin.

Here is a map of asia.



Why does the media insist in collectively associating Chinese and Japanese people with honour killings?

Originally posted by torqpoc
Maybe you should read yourself because you and the OP are spreading hate.

By the same token, the BBC documentary about honour killings must be sreading hate as well?

By the way, 91% of Honour killings worldwide are carried out by Muslims.

In Europe, Muslims carried out 96% of honour killings. Not Chinese. Not Japanese. Not Indonesian. Muslims.

files.abovetopsecret.com...

Apparently to state that fact is 'spreading hate'. The truth that dare not speak it's name.

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by Mclaneinc

Originally posted by Jameela

Keep your version of truth. You wont here me engage in anything that resembles an effort to peace and understanding again.

And there you have it, spoken like a true radical, if its not my way then you can forget peace and understanding...

Well at least you were honest in the end..Shame it took so long...

I don't think this is entirely fair. I think she genuinely did have positive intentions; and truthfully, all of us are driven by the form of imperialism with which we have been raised. Americans are no less guilty of that, than Muslims themselves.

It may have seemed hard but to be honest i was getting tired of the line she was taking, here in the UK I see no end of wannabe Radicals whose only conversation is you listen I'm talking, if you dare say "you are wrong" its all how very dare you and instant end of chat bar the threats.

She just sounded like one of those, its also hard to take someone sensibly when you are having to tell them facts about their own religion that they should know better than me, a non Muslim. You also know you are on a loser when you are saying that Radical Islam DOES treat women like filth and the reply is that you are putting down Islam.

If someone is THAT blinkered then any chat is a waste of time..

I wish her all the best but entering into a site like ATS with the proviso that no one must speak wrongly about Islam was a poor choice. If I see bad from whatever side I say it, if you can't tell the truth the whole thing is pointless.

Originally posted by torqpoc

Originally posted by ollncasino
The newspaper report uses the word 'Asian'. While in the USA this has a wider meaning, in the UK it is now a code word for 'Muslim', particularily Pakistani Muslims.

Hi OP,
Ok I don't agree with honour violence, but you're spreading disinformation.

In the UK Asian is NOT used as a code word for Muslim. Muslim is used as a word for Muslims. Never read or heard such rubbish, and yes I live in the UK and yes I live in areas with a lot of Muslims and a lot of Asian Muslims and a lot of non Muslim Asians.

Asians is used to group peoples from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc..

*shakes head*

T

I think you are missing the point, we the people in the UK use the right description but the UK press seems unwilling to use the word Muslim so use Asian instead so not to offend a radical (oh the irony).

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
Here's something else i found while browsing the net:

Muslim marriage guide to ‘belting the wife’ sparks outrage

AN Islamic marriage guide that advises Muslim men on how to beat and control their wives has sparked outrage.

The 160-page A Gift For Muslim Couple tells husbands they may beat wives "by hand or stick" or "pull her by the ears".

Women are told they must not leave the house without permission.

A wife should "beautify herself" for her man and "fulfil his desires".

And if she disobeys, a husband may "restrain her with strength or threaten her".

The book, based on the writings of an Islamic scholar, is on sale at online Islamic bookstores and eBay.

It is billed as "the perfect wedding gift".

But moderate Muslim academic Tarek Fatah said that anyone selling it should be prosecuted.

He warned: "It is inciting men to hit women."

There's many points of view if the Koran actually suggests punishment to women but the Saudi man made version certainly does suggest carrying a rod amongst other things. As usual the man made version heads straight for the violent answer.

As for the covering, the Koran is clear that the woman should protect her modesty, there's no mention of wearing a full on tent, again down the the man made nonsense.

Originally posted by Jameela

Here is the problem, any issues I have with Muslims are between Muslims, has nothing to do with you, so why would I speak on these issues with you? The problems Muslims face with fundamentalists we take up with them. Any grievances in our countries we have, we take up with the peoples of our countries.

Snip....

If you all want on this forum is people who will speak against Islam and Muslims so people can have more to hate then I am not your person, you can call the CIA I am sure they will be glad to help you.

Now here's the problem with what you just said...

It has a lot to do with me and every other non Muslim here as we are kuffar to the radicals, WE get to suffer.

Secondly, the vast majority of Muslims do NOT do anything to distance themselves from these people, I've seen but a handful of minor groups speaking out about them while the main lump hide behind not judging another Muslim as only Allah can judge. Sorry but that is a HUGE cop out, we are being left to deal with these Radicals while most Muslims go about their way of life.

I spoke to a local Imam about the radicals and he was disgusted at how the Mosque was being targeted by them but as the funding was coming from Saudi he was put in an awkward spot.

And lastly, why do you deny Honour killing does not exist amongst the Muslim community, you know full well it does or you are so blinkered that you refuse to see the Police reports, calling them propaganda against Muslims?

Well they are not and while you deny this awful thing happening, somewhere in the UK a fellow Muslim woman is going through this problem, I fail to see how anyone could say it does not happen and isn't a mainly Muslim issue, they even discuss this in Shariah courts, its one of their reason that they exist according to them.

Sorry, I wish you well but burying your head in the sand (so to speak) and refusing to acknowledge these problems really isn't helping either side, in fact it causes more friction.

If you believe radicals are a Muslim problem and nothing to do with us then perhaps you should be seen to be doing something about it.

Originally posted by joewalker

Mclaneinc may be surprised to find that one in five women in Northern Ireland has experienced domestic violence...what was your headline again?

edit on 27-3-2012 by joewalker because: (no reason given)

The number is most likely much higher in all honesty, my mother wanted to divorce her husband while in Belfast but was 'Not allowed' by the religion, women were indeed a lesser person in any relationship. When we moved to here in England she was granted the ability and did so at great haste, and yes, she was the victim of domestic violence and again while in Belfast she was not allowed to go to the Police by the family.

I think at the end of the day some men are bully's and cowards and blame the stuff in their own life on the woman and they take it out on them.
Sometimes they go to far, kill the wife and blame it on honour (she did something to dis-honour me so I killed her)

Not saying only men can be bully's my 2nd wife used to beat the crap outa me .

Originally posted by torqpoc
I may be no friend to radicalism or religion and be French, but one thing I am not is a racist or an idiot.

Yet, honour killings appear linked to radical Islam.

Turkey saw 953 honour killings in the first seven months of 2009. Honour killings in Turkey increased 14 fold in 7 years from 66 in 2002, to 953 in the first seven months of 2009, according to government figures.

www.csmonitor.com...

While honour killings are clearly cultural, there does appear to be a strong correlation between the upsurge in fundamentalist Islam in Turkey and the upsurge in honour killings.

It would be reasonable to conjecture that their is a correlation between how extreme a British Muslim's religious beliefs are and how likely he is to carry out an honour killing.

For instance,

Pew Poll on Pakistani Public Opinion

83% of Pakistani Muslims support stoning adulterers

80% Support the cutting of hands of thieves

78% of Pakistani Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam

pewglobal.org...

If you want to find the honour killers, you could do worse than look for the Pakistani origin, Muslim radicals in the UK.