'Honour' violence is acceptable, say one in five young British Asians

Originally posted by Jameela
According to police statistics in 2010/11 fiscal year there were 642 Murders committed in total. This only murder, and does not include attempted murder. Police estimate that up to 12 murders are committed every year which are classified as 'honor killings.' ( web.archive.org...://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonour_2.shtml ) Which leaves me to wonder why you are condemning just under 2% of all murders committed in your country, and leaving out the 98%?

Neither of the two links you supply work, although the Home Office one says its is broken due to high traffic.

According to police figures, the number of of honour attacks have risen by 47% in the last 3 years.

Alarming number of 'honour attacks' in the UK as police reveal thousands were carried out last year

According to figures obtained by the Iranian and Kurdish Women's Rights Organisation (Ikwro), at least 2,823 incidents of 'honour-based' violence took place, with the highest number recorded in London.

Between the 12 forces able to provide figures from 2009, there was an overall 47 per cent rise in honour attack incidents.

Police in Northumbria saw a 305 per cent increase from 17 incidents in 2009 to 69 in 2010, while Cambridgeshire saw a 154 per cent jump from 11 to 28.

Daily Mail

Originally posted by Jameela
I do not condone the practice of any murder, regardless of what the excuse for committing it is, but apparently you are less concerned with murder, than with a reason (albeit not a very good one as according to your surveya higher percentage of Christians condone the practice of honor killing than Muslims) to slander Muslims in general.

Yet Muslims carry out 96% of honour killings in Europe.

The UK Muslim community has a problem with honour killings and with honour violence.

Where is the slander in telling the truth?

If you truly think it is slander, then you should sue the Daily Mail and the BBC. I won't hold my breath.

Originally posted by Jameela
Perhaps when you have 'put a stop' to 98% of the murders in your country then you can condemn the 2%. It is often quite helpful to remove the log from your eye so that you can see better to remove the splinter from your neighbors eye.

So your logic is that because other people are murdering people, then it is unfair to condemn Muslims for murdering and assaualting women and children in the pursuit of family honour?

Only a 49% increase in honour violence in the UK since 2009.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

the first link works fine on that page go to Crime in England and Wales 2010/11 2nd Edition (PDF file - 1mb - Warning: large file) and click the link for the PDF file... the second link you will have to hit reply with quote and then copy the entire address to the link, for some reason (probably because it is in archives) this site is not linking properly, but I have pasted the entire address to the article and you will have to use a bit of work.

You addressed nothing I said, not one thing, you simply used it as an opportunity to state once more your agenda which has been refuted in this thread a great many times by a great many people.

out of 642 murders a year in the UK, you are only worried about (up to) 12. that says a lot about you.

If you want world wide murder statistics, try 1.5 million people murdered in Iraq by "Christians" in an illegal war in a sovereign nation... try condemning all murder...

But I guess you aren't against murder! Your agenda is only to paint all Muslims as killers of innocents.

reply to post by ollncasino

I'm sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. The survey says 1 in 5 ASIANS.
ASIANS. You know what asians are? They aren't necessarily muslims.
In that survey, they DEFINITELY aren't only muslims, since the survey MENTIONED other religions.
So NO, 1 in 5 "Young British Muslims" DO NOT consider "honour violence" acceptable.
THAT IS A LIE.

And the video (which seems very oddly edited together...I wonder what the uploader cut out) has interview with a muslim man, who mentions that most of the cases he sees are from the muslim community. Since he is a muslim man living in the muslim community, that is a pretty obvious thing to happen.
So sorry, no, nowhere is it being said that muslims are the perpetrators in a vast majority of cases.

Of course honour killings (and violence) are bad. Of course they should be stopped, no matter what the religion of the persons involved is.

But it is obvious you don't care one whit about honour killings. You're just using them as a stick in your "knee-jerk attempts" to attack Islam. After quoting the article (from the Daily Mail, no less), your first point was "LOOK! IT IS MUSLIMS! LOOK! LOOK! THE MUSLIMS ARE DOING IT! THE WORD ASIAN THERE ACTUALLY MEANS MUSLIMS!".

You ask "Should we be more culturally sensitive?"
Since you seem to have some personal issue with some other person covering their hair, and since you seem to somehow take it an insult or affront to your culture that an immigrant is doing this, yes, you should be.

If a person becomes an immigrant to the UK, this doesn't mean they have to give up their right to practice their beliefs as they see fit, whether or not you consider those beliefs to be true or false. Just because some people move to the UK, but don't join their friends or coworkers for a beer on the weekend, or share some sausage or blood pudding with them, and decide to cover their hair in public, this is their freedom of expression. Their freedom of religion. They are perfectly within their rights to do this, unless it is against the law. But the example you pointed out was, oddly enough, not "honour killing", rather "covering their hair", which is totally legal (as well as being none of your business how other people dress). It is in no way an affront or insult to "Britishness" or whatever, and nobody should take it so.

The alternative is, quite explicitly, the definition of a bigot. Sorry, but it is true.

Originally posted by Jameela
But I guess you aren't against murder! Your agenda is only to paint all Muslims as killers of innocents.

It is understandable that you find talking about honour violence and murder in the Western Muslim community embarrassing.

That however is no reason to brush it under the rug. It is Muslim women and children who are being assaulted and murdered.

Yet you appear more interested in maintaining your perception of the honour of the Muslim community than trying to stop the assault and murder of Muslim women and children.

Go figure.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Go figure.

I do not find it embarrassing, but your arguments were false... and all refuted..I just wanted to know why you are not concerned with 98% of the murders in your country?

Do 630 murders not bother you? Or are you wanting to ignore them since that was not Asian people committing them?

reply to post by Jameela

I do not find it embarrassing, but your arguments were false... and all refuted..I just wanted to know why you are not concerned with 98% of the murders in your country?

This is called deflection and is a classic troll comment.

Do 630 murders not bother you? Or are you wanting to ignore them since that was not Asian people committing them?

Deflection, deflection, deflection.

I'm glad my sisters will never look up to the Muslim religion. And I'm saying that as Kurdish Iranian, born a Muslim(however retarded that sounds, how the hell can someone be born anything other than human?)

Edit:

It is often quite helpful to remove the log from your eye so that you can see better to remove the splinter from your neighbors eye.

I do hope you know who said that and I do hope you are humble enough to not only say that to others but to apply it to yourself as well.

Originally posted by babloyi
And the video (which seems very oddly edited together...I wonder what the uploader cut out) has interview with a muslim man, who mentions that most of the cases he sees are from the muslim community. Since he is a muslim man living in the muslim community, that is a pretty obvious thing to happen.

Nice bit of spin.

Originally posted by babloyi
So sorry, no, nowhere is it being said that muslims are the perpetrators in a vast majority of cases.

Except it does.

At 4:32 mins,

"It needs to be said that the vast majority that we see involve the Muslim community of which I am a member.

My view is that there is no place for multi-cultural sensitivity in this situation.

This is something that we cannot tolerate. The moment that I stop looking at a community because someone tells me it is too sensitive, is the moment I pack up my file and walk out the door".

Originally posted by babloyi
Of course honour killings (and violence) are bad. Of course they should be stopped, no matter what the religion of the persons involved is.

Thank you for acknowleding that point. We agree on sonething at last.

Originally posted by babloyi
But it is obvious you don't care one whit about honour killings. You're just using them as a stick in your "knee-jerk attempts" to attack Islam. After quoting the article (from the Daily Mail, no less), your first point was "LOOK! IT IS MUSLIMS! LOOK! LOOK! THE MUSLIMS ARE DOING IT! THE WORD ASIAN THERE ACTUALLY MEANS MUSLIMS!".

In Europe Muslims carry out 96% of Honour Killings depite only making up about 3%+ of the population.
In North America Muslims carry out 84% of Honour Killings depsite making up less than 1% of the population.

meforum

I know you don't like the survey. You are hardly likely to do so. Please supply another survey proving it wrong.

Originally posted by babloyi
You ask "Should we be more culturally sensitive?"
Since you seem to have some personal issue with some other person covering their hair, and since you seem to somehow take it an insult or affront to your culture that an immigrant is doing this, yes, you should be.

Actually, I don't really mind about Muslims covering their hair. Don't get me started on the burqa though.

I am on board with 2 out of 3 British people who want it banned.

• A Pew Report Poll (US company), found that 62% of Britons polled supported banning the burqa in 2010.

Pew Report

• A YouGov Poll, found that 66% of Britons polled supported banning the burqa in 2010.

YouGov Poll

• A further YouGoc Poll, for Channel 5, found that 67% of Britons polled supported banning the burqa in 2010.

YouGov Poll

Originally posted by babloyi
If a person becomes an immigrant to the UK, this doesn't mean they have to give up their right to practice their beliefs as they see fit, whether or not you consider those beliefs to be true or false. Just because some people move to the UK, but don't join their friends or coworkers for a beer on the weekend, or share some sausage or blood pudding with them, and decide to cover their hair in public, this is their freedom of expression. Their freedom of religion. They are perfectly within their rights to do this, unless it is against the law. But the example you pointed out was, oddly enough, not "honour killing", rather "covering their hair", which is totally legal (as well as being none of your business how other people dress). It is in no way an affront or insult to "Britishness" or whatever, and nobody should take it so.

You seem to be making a large thing out of Muslims covering their hair. Interestingly,

Survey on what British Muslim students believe:-

• 59% felt it was important that women wear the hijab but only 31% felt a women should be forced to wear one.

• 40% felt than men and women should not be allowed to associate freely together, while 12% were not sure.

• 32% felt it could be justifiable to kill in the name of religion.

YouGov

Luckily, on 1 in 3 British students feel that Muslim women should be forced to wear a hijab.

Originally posted by babloyi
The alternative is, quite explicitly, the definition of a bigot. Sorry, but it is true.

An objective person would perhaps call someone like yourself, who attempts to deflect and spin attention away from Islamic honour killings something far worse than a bigot.

reply to post by ollncasino

It is understandable that you find talking about honour violence and murder in the Western Muslim community embarrassing.

You are absolutely correct but wrong in one thing. They are not embarrassed. Their psychology does not allow them to be embarrassed by something that is derived from the holy book and the supposed God they were all told to fear.

They just don't want people to talk about Muslims or Islam in a negative way. Not even about the negative parts! You will see them ragging on Christianities bad parts when they are confronted with Islam's bad parts, but they never conceed that; "Hey, you're right, perhaps this is bad and not helpful to us at all..."

That however is no reason to brush it under the rug. It is Muslim women and children who are being assaulted and murdered.

I find it so ridiculous to push away humans into boxes that say "Muslim" or "Christian"...if everyone was just a human, nobody could excuse the behaviour of certain barbarians who try to excuse themselves by saying: "Oh it's my culture/religion" or others who try to deflect saying nothing of value, only: "Oh but look there, something else is happening over there!!! LOOK I TELL YOU!"

Yet you appear more interested in maintaining your perception of the honour of the Muslim community than trying to stop the assault and murder of Muslim women and children.

Exactly. This person will even stoop so low as to say: "Iranians inside Iran are free and the theocracy is great for the people." Even to the point of being supportive of Khomenei which shows clearly how ignorant and unaware this person is about the real world!

reply to post by Jameela


And in case you are wondering. It is an issue when the majority of followers of Islam in the West never even read the Quran themselves but go by the interpretations of their imams(idolatry). When the majority of those young ignorant folks choose their religion because they were born into it(which is great if you are trying to build an army, but those days are gone - you don't live as a nomad anymore, get a clue). Or they choose it because they look a certain way and they are being ostracized(which would lead me to think for myself, not conforming to a mass of people just as ignorant as me).

It is dangerous when these ignorant people take advice from an Imam who believes that his wives and daughters are his possession and he should decide how they should live, which trickles down to regular ignorant Muslim families who are COMPLETELY OBLIVIOUS to the outside world - who take the advice from the backward Imam, and alienate their daughters and then end up becoming enraged because: "How dare my possession put me in a bad light in front of my fellow backward Muslims".

Seriously. Get some REAL LIFE experience then come back and talk to us. 100% that you will reassess a lot of your religios viewpoints.

Originally posted by InfoKartel
reply to post by Jameela

 

And in case you are wondering. It is an issue when the majority of followers of Islam in the West never even read the Quran themselves but go by the interpretations of their imams(idolatry).

We're being played, InfoKartel. Everyone here is. The American government and AIPAC have been trying to stir up radicalism and instability in the Middle East by paying people to be violent, and then after they've done that, they use the media that we see, to cause us to think that everyone living in those countries is a terrorist. They are manipulating both sides; the Muslims themselves, and us.

I don't completely understand the motivation behind it yet, but I am starting to see it. Islam isn't the major threat that we're being told that it is, although that is what the system wants us to think. We need to stop thinking purely in terms of terrorists, and start thinking in terms of human beings.

Islam as a religion does not automatically dehumanise its' adherents. There are some people within the religion who are bad, yes; but then again, I experienced psychological abuse with the Christian churches I went to, and a lot of other people have as well. Look at the scandals with the Catholic church.

Originally posted by InfoKartel
reply to post by ollncasino

 

They just don't want people to talk about Muslims or Islam in a negative way. Not even about the negative parts! You will see them ragging on Christianities bad parts when they are confronted with Islam's bad parts, but they never conceed that; "Hey, you're right, perhaps this is bad and not helpful to us at all..."

Christians aren't generally interested in making those sorts of concessions, either; believe me. I can't remember the last time I confronted a Christian about them using the belief of eternity in Hell against people, without immediately being assured that there was a place on the giant bonfire for me as well.

It's a mistake to view Islam as being worse than Semitic monotheism's other two branches. Christianity is to some extent more liberal in terms of the written theology itself, yes; but not generally in terms of how Christians actually behave. If Jesus Christ was to come back tomorrow, I can guarantee you that he would be murdered very quickly, and that the people who did it would most likely be those who considered themselves his most adamant followers, and who would be denying that that is who he really was, the loudest.

reply to post by petrus4


You're trying to tell me that the culture I am from does not exist. Do you have any Kurdish/Iranian people that are as candid towards you as I am being now? My guess is not because a lot of those families still have this primal pride stuck in their brains. And they pay the price for it too!

So, it would seem that you are being duped, not me. I'm not saying all Muslims are like that or all Kurdish/Iranian people are like that no. But in order for them not to be like that they need to ditch part of the culture. They need to educate themselves. A part of the culture that may have been suitable(who knows) a couple hundred years ago is not suitable now. Just like fundamentalist Christians needed to ditch part of their culture. It's a process of evolution. Those that stay behind face themselves or others who have progressed.

It's a mistake to view Islam as being worse than Semitic monotheism's other two branches. Christianity is to some extent more liberal in terms of the written theology itself, yes; but not generally in terms of how Christians actually behave.

*Sigh*

There is a thing called secularism. Numerous people died so that it would be this way and the church would not have the highest power. Can the same be said about Islam and Iran? I don't think so.

reply to post by ollncasino

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by babloyi
Of course honour killings (and violence) are bad. Of course they should be stopped, no matter what the religion of the persons involved is.

Thank you for acknowleding that point. We agree on sonething at last.

Do we?
You confuse me sometimes, olln. Your very first response to me in this thread was attempting to call me out on "not expressing enough outrage against honour killings", yet in the 15 pages of this thread, you haven't expressed outrage (except in general against Muslims and Islam and anyone who disagrees with you), or any sort of condemnation of honour killings as a whole.

Instead, you bash on muslims, you go on and on and on about how "asian" in that survey means "muslim", you have a racist argument with a frenchman, then somehow, out of nowhere, you bring up your disdain for immigrants who cover their hair (and then you accuse ME of "making a large thing out of it"!).
No condemnation of honour killings. Why haven't YOU expressed as much outrage against honour killings as you have vitriol against Islam and muslims?

And you start talking to me about "spinning" things, when you repeatedly are peddling the same quotes and videos and links again and again and again, page after page, long after they've been addressed and your assumptions of them proved false. I don't suppose you took classes on propaganda in university? Destroy any opposition to your views by repeatedly bashing in the same words again and again and again, until any opposition is drowned out in a sea of your own views?

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by babloyi
And the video (which seems very oddly edited together...I wonder what the uploader cut out) has interview with a muslim man, who mentions that most of the cases he sees are from the muslim community. Since he is a muslim man living in the muslim community, that is a pretty obvious thing to happen.

Nice bit of spin.

How is what I said spin? I quoted you almost exactly what the man said. And then you provide a link again to the exact same spot where the man says the exact same thing as what I said he said.

It's funny, olln. During the span of this discussion, I've received several PMs from ATSers (and not just muslims), warning me that engaging you is pointless, as any discussion with you is just an endless font of racism and bigotry. I'm beginning to wonder if they are correct....

Originally posted by babloyi
Instead, you bash on muslims, you go on and on and on about how "asian" in that survey means "muslim", you have a racist argument with a frenchman, then somehow, out of nowhere, you bring up your disdain for immigrants who cover their hair (and then you accuse ME of "making a large thing out of it"!).

Go read the post about immigrants who cover their hair. Or better still, I will post it here.

Link
Perhaps it is her insistence to cover her hair, as an immigrant, not a tourist, that upsets British people?

When in Rome, do as the Romans do...

Unless you are a Muslim immigrant, of course. Then you expect the host culture to bend to you.

In fact, rather than uncover her hair, or leave the UK, your Muslim friend was driven into the arms of Bin Laden...

What is it about Muslims that make them like that? Their religion perhaps?

I really don't care about Muslims covering their hair unless they are wearing a burqa. nusnus post however suggested that her ex-friend had run into quiet a bit of bad feeling from British people while wearing her hijab.

Would I prefer that Muslim women didn't wear a Hijab?

Yes, I would. Although I don't honestly feel it is that big a deal. My point was however that perhaps what was annoying the British people who were giving her, clearly undeserved, abuse. I am however concerned that Muslim immigrants do expect Western culture to bend to them, while a number have been drawn to Bin Laden.

Originally posted by babloyi
No condemnation of honour killings. Why haven't YOU expressed as much outrage against honour killings as you have vitriol against Islam and muslims?

I will reproduce one of my posts

Link
Interestingly, on ATS, the number of posters with anti-Muslim attitudes and the strength of their feelings has increased greatly in the last few years.

Honour killings carried out by Muslims do nothing to improve such negative perceptions of Muslims.

It should be remembered that most Muslims are reasonable and just want a quiet life. Unfortunately there are few, if any, Muslim communities that don't have a number of radicals which give the moderate Muslims a bad name.

Originally posted by babloyi
It's funny, olln. During the span of this discussion, I've received several PMs from ATSers (and not just muslims), warning me that engaging you is pointless, as any discussion with you is just an endless font of racism and bigotry. I'm beginning to wonder if they are correct.

You and I had a long running argument, so you are in no need of PMs from ATSers. In fact perhaps the longest on and off arguments I have ever had is with you.

What drives me?

People who defend radical Islam but don't know what they are talking about.

I can see why attacks on radical Islam is seen as racism and bigotry by many. But look at my survey of UK Muslim student attitudes above.

40% of British students felt than men and women should not be allowed to associate freely together, while 12% were not sure.
YouGov

Those people are not Muslim radicals, rather normal students, yet at least 40% of them hold a view that is diametrically opposed to West values. These are the future leaders of UK Muslim communities.

Should they get a get out of jail free card because their views are religious rather than secular?

Should I be forced to accept Muslim values that are contrary to Western values just because those Islamic values are religious in nature?

A lot of posters on ATS appear to think so and cry racism and bigotry when people refuse to.