Why do so many people have an issue with the TSA?

reply to post by Gab1159

The things you speak of could be true. Honestly though, I have researched as far as I care to into the subject through first person accounts. I try not to utilize Google, if I don't have to, because the information isn't 100% accurate just because you got it from there.

By your post you infer the idea that you aren't American.. you don't deal with TSA unless you've traveled to the U.S. so just because you do a search on Google doesn't make you an expert.

A lot of information is available online.. but you have to consider the sources you ascertain it from. Alex Jones is not a valid source IMO.

By the way, nice fair weather way of slamming the U.S. in your post. It doesn't become you as a member when that is the obvious hidden ideology.

Originally posted by FoxMulder91
reply to post by kyred

 

So walk throught the body scanner, if you feel strangers are going to "fondle you"

So I assume you are fine with people walking onto planes without being checked then?

Cheers

Another troll and ignorant post.

1. Nobody feels that there shouldn't be some type of screening.
2. Power hungry,high school dropouts is not my idea of appropriate screening personnel.
3. Private security teams who look for pattern behavior, responses to questions are just as effective.
4. I have posts where the writer tries to reverse their logic by using words like "assume".
5. Body scanners are dangerous....period.

Originally posted by camus154
reply to post by Gab1159

 

You know, I was actually going to pay some attention to your reply until it unraveled into the usual mud slide I was hoping it would not become.

I'm sorry, but while you maintain you're not a fear-mongerer, I see that you go out of your way to slam just about every facet of the American system in the loosest (and of course, most unsupported...but supporting your argument is apparently MY job) of terms. I'm surprised you didn't bring up the bounty system fiasco of the NFL.

And it's funny...here I am, an American, going about my fairly typical American existence, and I'm not seeing it. Sorry. It may look great for an ATS thesis. It may make for great liner notes for a Rage Against the Machine album. But I'm just not seeing not.

Not in any practical, REAL way.

See, it's one thing to be an armchair freedom fighter who cherry-picks what one reads online or in the paper. It's another thing to actually experience it at a very basic level.

So you know what? If this is a police state? Meh, so what. I'm ok with that

And in the meantime, people who really HAVE lived in REAL police states, all the refugees who are fleeing genocide and real oppression, they'd probably come here and look at you like you're nuts.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but the fact that YOU are not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. Actually, I have noticed people who are not Americans are generally more aware of what's going on in your country. You are subjected to the enormous amount of propaganda spewed by your mainstream media, whether it is directly or indirectly. "Foreigners" are generally less biased because we see the picture from an outer perspective. Try it for fun.

Sorry, I do not follow the NFL at all, I have no idea what's going on there, and once again, you are avoiding what I'm saying. If you are to reply to my post, why don't you address the issues I'm raising?

And here goes your straw man argument once again. Slamming every facets of the american system? Try again? I'm not "slamming" your system, I'm showing you how your country is being a police state. All of what I mentioned above is a characteristic of a police state. That's a fact, whether you consider it slamming or not.

If you don't care if you live in a police state or not, then you are part of the problem. It's because of people like you who did not give a damn that your country is in such a bad shape right now. It's the inaction of your people that have allowed your country to be invaded by the Elite structure.

I'm not anti-american. I love Americans, the only things I hate about you are your ruler, which are not representative of the people anymore. I hope I won't shatter "The Dream" if I tell you your country is now ran as a corporation...

Now please stop saying I'm attacking your way of life or being anti-american, I am not. I am trying to point out where your country is failing as a free nation, and TSA is part of the problem. Another thing I'm not doing is attack you. If an outsider doesn't have the same opinion as you, it doesn't mean it's wrong because YOU are American.

Also, YOUR job is not to support MY arguments. Your job as an ATS member is to deny ignorance, and that starts with doing your own research before making conclusions. If you didn't encounter any article on the health issue of TSA scanners or abuses by TSA groppers, that simply shows the lack of research on your part. You can't expect someone to do all the work for you. I'm Canadian, you should be the one most informed on TSA.

Originally posted by camus154

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
Because I have to submit to very invasive procedures. It gives the illusion of safety at the price of dignity and freedom.

No you don't. Take a bus if it's so invasive for you. Take Amtrak if you're all "grr! see my indignant face!" about it.

And even if it was, so what? Sexual assaulting people is an offense against the law, and therefore businesses making it mandatory that you submit to such a thing to take part in such a necessary mode of transportation is illegal.

No, it's not. I've already provided a link from a federal circuit court case that says it's not illegal. So sorry, you are flat out wrong.

I've been patted down. My genitalia was not touched. Believe it or not, these TSA agents probably aren't getting off on your soft parts.

edit on 21-3-2012 by camus154 because: (no reason given)

Before I decide to take the plunge and drink the kool-aid with ya, are you trolling? Or is this a cerebral exercise?

I'm not being funny.

As to your "it's legal, I've given links, yeah sorry, that's crap. At one time it was legal to own a person. At one time, it was (relatively) legal to beat your spouse. (and this includes rape btw)

The bottom line here is it is morally wrong, and (IANAL) I would assume that the 4th amendments rights that ppl are giving you are rights that cannot be abridged by the govt, b/c it isn't the govt that gives you these rights in the first place, it is conditioning plain and simple.

Seriously, all kidding aside, you DO see the frog in the pot syndrome happening in this country, right?

Right?

Originally posted by 31Bravo
reply to post by Gab1159

 

The things you speak of could be true. Honestly though, I have researched as far as I care to into the subject through first person accounts. I try not to utilize Google, if I don't have to, because the information isn't 100% accurate just because you got it from there.

By your post you infer the idea that you aren't American.. you don't deal with TSA unless you've traveled to the U.S. so just because you do a search on Google doesn't make you an expert.

A lot of information is available online.. but you have to consider the sources you ascertain it from. Alex Jones is not a valid source IMO.

By the way, nice fair weather way of slamming the U.S. in your post. It doesn't become you as a member when that is the obvious hidden ideology.

edit on 21-3-2012 by 31Bravo because: (no reason given)

Yes, I'm all in with you. I don't value Alex Jones a lot, although he has some good stuff once in a while. As I just replied to another user, I'm not anti-American, some of the best people I've met online and in real-life were Americans. There is a big difference between your rulers, and you, the people. What I've mentioned above is coming from your rulers, as they are the one to call the shots. I am heavily against your government, I believe it is causing harm to the majority of the people of this planet, starving poor nations to rip off their natural resources, as an example.

But you, you the American people, have no real power over these issues. Why should I be anti-American? Americans are cool people in general. I may have worded my latest post wrong, and for that, I am sorry.

I love all the people of this planet, but I'm sorry, the system that has been worked by your very leader is an insult to the world.

EDIT: I wish to precise, I have no hate against the United States. The problems I'm talking about are happening in most countries, and is a global concern for the people of this planet. It's unfortunate that the United States and the UK seem to be the HQs of this global elite, but it is the truth.

Media Mind Kontrol


I never have a problem and I have gotten into trouble with some of the agencies. Just regular folks trying to make a living...treat them that way and presto...no problemo.

Always get a thank you and enjoy your flight everytime

Originally posted by defcon5
If you give people something to gripe about, some always will.
Others go in looking for a fight because they are on a crusade and trying to make a point.

Ultimately though, they have no leg to stand on. The Contract of Carriage for an airline, which you agree to when you purchase your ticket, gives them the right to do any type of search they wish to you. You waive your rights as part of the contract between you and the airlines, to travel as their passenger.

The response to this is typically, “well I have to fly”, but the truth is flying is not a right, its a privilege. You are traveling as a guest of a company, and have agreed to their terms for that trip including the searches. Nobody forces you to fly, and its really not the airlines fault if you need to be somewhere in a big hurry (aka an emergency on your part, does not make an emergency on their part).

Others will gripe that they have to fly because of their job, but again, no one forced them to take a job that involved airline travel, and if they do not wish to comply with the airlines, they can get another job that does not require traveling, or they can take the company private jet

. If their job forces them to fly, that is neither the airlines, nor the governments fault, and has no bearing on the two party contract you form with the airlines on receipt of your ticket.

Airlines are not in control of the regulations.

The government is!

If you let the airlines run their companies as they want to, you would have a choice.

As it stands you have no choice.

Get it?

Originally posted by Gab1159
You are entitled to your own opinions, but the fact that YOU are not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. Actually, I have noticed people who are not Americans are generally more aware of what's going on in your country. You are subjected to the enormous amount of propaganda spewed by your mainstream media, whether it is directly or indirectly. "Foreigners" are generally less biased because we see the picture from an outer perspective. Try it for fun.

Let me put it to you like this. You think you have an objective, unbiased opinion about what's going on with America. In other words, your knowledge of the American experience is academic. You read about it. Maybe you're told about it. It's reductionist. It's like trying to say, "Well, I've read all about football (American, that is, not soccer). I know the rules, I know how the field is laid out, I know the time segments, I know some plays. Thus, my knowledge of what PLAYING football is like is just as good, if not better, than those who've actually played it."

You have absolutely no idea how much propaganda I'm subjected to, or what form it takes. You haven't the foggiest idea of what news I read, what TV I watch, what books I read. In fact, the only propaganda you can possibly KNOW I'm subjected to is that which is on ATS.

So thank you kindly, even though you might think, as an objective outsider, you have a better idea of what is going on with America, I can assure you this is not the case.

And here goes your straw man argument once again. Slamming every facets of the american system? Try again? I'm not "slamming" your system, I'm showing you how your country is being a police state. All of what I mentioned above is a characteristic of a police state. That's a fact, whether you consider it slamming or not.

Calling our legal system a sham is not demonstrating that we live in a police state. Pointing to money spent in the military industrial complex does not mean it's a police state. Being involved in world conflicts does not make us a police state. UAVs does not make us a police state. TSA does not make us a police state.

Oh yes, you jumped all over the place in your slam on America. At least have the integrity to not pretend like you didn't now.

If you don't care if you live in a police state or not, then you are part of the problem. It's because of people like you who did not give a damn that your country is in such a bad shape right now. It's the inaction of your people that have allowed your country to be invaded by the Elite structure.

Ah, yes. The old "if you don't agree with me, that's because you're wrong/bad/ignorant" tactic. Objective, indeed, my fine Canadian friend. I can assure you, you are in absolutely no position to attempt to dictate to me how I feel about my country or how much I care about what's going on.

Just because I'm not peeing my pants over how much of a police state we've become, because, you know, even though you keep telling me that's my reality, my own reality begs to differ, but you know, you WOULD know better than me, right? Just because I'm not all "grr!! Look at my objective horror! Look at my removed sadness that some other country is going to hell in a hand basket!" doesn't mean I don't care.

Anyway, back to the real topic at hand, I don't have to "research" TSA. Unlike you, I have first-hand experience dealing with TSA.

And even though everyone keeps telling me how horrible of an experience I'm going through and how many rights I'm losing every time I step through that check point, I just have to kind of laugh because you know what? This American Life?

It ain't all that bad

reply to post by FoxMulder91


I think I get vexed because it is largely a *false* sense of security; the US TSA needs to have more educated, psych/behavior profilers (like I daresay Israel) working for them. So as to not incriminate myself, I will not disclose what I have passed through security check-pts.--nothing dangerous really but still they should have caught on.

As an analogy I will compare the unsatisfactory false sense of security that the current TSA is providing with my "gated community" for my home. There are security guards, checkpoints, gates, etc.that we all pay good annual dues for to keep the area/neighborhood safe. But the funny thing is anyone can walk through some of the many green areas or come in by water/boat and be roaming around.

On one hand, it may be a small deterrent, but on the other hand, if someone really wants to do something harmful/trick the system, they'll do it unless you have better processes, procedures, forces, resources in place.

reply to post by schadenfreude


Like it or not, the judicial system determines what is and is not a violation of the Constitution. So sorry, this is not illegal.

Whether or not it's moral is immaterial. Morality is relative, which is why we rely on the justice system instead of some shape-shifting sense of "morality" to determine such things.

Finally, no. I'm really not quaking in my boots or calling upon the ghosts of our forefathers in horror because someone passes their hand across my thigh for 5 seconds before I'm on my merry way at the airport.

Do I think TSA is necessary? Hell yes. Do I think they're doing a good job? Hell no. But those are separate arguments.

reply to post by FoxMulder91


'Cause 9/11 was an inside job.

reply to post by FoxMulder91


trololololololololling.

Originally posted by camus154
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

Like it or not, the judicial system determines what is and is not a violation of the Constitution. So sorry, this is not illegal.

Whether or not it's moral is immaterial. Morality is relative, which is why we rely on the justice system instead of some shape-shifting sense of "morality" to determine such things.

Finally, no. I'm really not quaking in my boots or calling upon the ghosts of our forefathers in horror because someone passes their hand across my thigh for 5 seconds before I'm on my merry way at the airport.

Do I think TSA is necessary? Hell yes. Do I think they're doing a good job? Hell no. But those are separate arguments.

(ok, i'll bite. Just this once.)

Give me a break about judges and the constitution.We have judges trying to make law from the bench, (here's a hint;they're not LEGALLY allowed to) We have president(s) declaring wars without congress, (again illegal) and we have a congress basically getting paid for doing nothing b/c these two other branches are doing their work!

So please don't give me (in all sincerity here) the "it's legal" bullcookies here, it doesn't fly. (no pun intended)

And since when did morality become immaterial? Screw morality, I'll settle for some good old fashioned commons sense! You don't pat down 90 year old women with walkers for starters, or have women take off their prosthetic breasts for "security".

As for giving away your rights, when they come for your guns, will you just as easily fall in line with that too?

TSA isn't necessary, I think Flight 93 proved that. (As well as the shoe and the underwear bomber.)

Citizens responded.

Thanks for being honest with me. (You never did tell me if you were trolling or just flexing your grey matter.)

Regards.

reply to post by FoxMulder91



I am... so long as I know that I won't be checked. Then I won't have to worry about anyone taking over the plane, because I take care of them.

Jaden

reply to post by schadenfreude


I am and have been 100% honest with you about how I feel on this.

I'm not going to get into a debate about the systems of our government because it wouldn't matter nor change either of our minds.

Regarding common sense with TSA, ok, let's go with that logic. Common sense says you don't pat down 90 year olds and children.

But now it's not so random anymore. Which means pretty soon someone complains that they've been profiled or singled out. Which means then everyone has to deal with a bunch of bull# because someone else used common sense, but hey, this is America, where anyone can sue!

So pretty soon it all becomes a mess and someone finally decides, "You know what? It's random. No exceptions. It's the only way of avoiding the whole subjectivity argument".

reply to post by camus154


No the judicial system is NOT what determines is constitutional or not. We the PEOPLE determine if something is constitutional or not, at least that's what is supposed to be the case, you have fallen into the brainwashing of people into thinking that the government is the end all be all.

We are the END all BE all. It is up to us to realize that we are not free and to insist on the government following their mandate that is the constitution.

You cannot expect a corrupt system to police itself.

Jaden

Originally posted by Masterjaden
No the judicial system is NOT what determines is constitutional or not. We the PEOPLE determine if something is constitutional or not, at least that's what is supposed to be the case, you have fallen into the brainwashing of people into thinking that the government is the end all be all.

You clearly weren't paying attention in 7th grade US Government.

Oh wait--let me guess the answer to that one. The textbooks were all a lie! Grr! Look at my buhahaha face!

You are getting my point wrong on almost all levels.

About the propaganda, did you read my post correctly? I said directly, or indirectly. You live in America, and you are surrounded by people who are subjected to propaganda, therefore you are indirectly subjected to propaganda yourself. I bet you do value some of your american brother's opinions? You surely do, right? The amount of propaganda within all levels of the american communication structure is so big that you can't avoid it. This is not a critic, this is an observation. Hell! Even here in Canada we are exposed to american propaganda. Let me remind you that our media companies are owned by the same folks/organisations that run your media. It's all the same. I don't think I have a better opinion than you, I have never ever stated that. Are you deliberately reading my post wrong? When I mentioned that outsiders GENERALLY have a LESS biased opinion on the tyranny that's going on in your country, have you ever pondered over why so much people don't like your government?

Now, what is the definition of a police state? Because if all I've told you doesn't fit your description of a police state, I don't know what will. I hope you don't expect every police state to kill millions of people in concentration camps?

Here's a wiki definition for you:
"A police state is one in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state."

I can honestly say I have seen most of the above happening in the United States. How about the censorship? How about the NDRP that was signed days ago, in which the government claims control over ALL your resources, in the name of safety of course. What about Obama ignoring so much of the constitution?

I think that when I mean police state, you imagine a Nazi like state. I would guess that whether a country is a police state or no relies on personal interpretation, but as I said, I've seen most of what is mentioned in the Wiki definition of police state happening right in your country.

And once again, please stop saying I'm slamming all your american way of life. I do not, and you know it. If you truly think that, you, once again, misread my previous post. I'm not slamming your country, I'm slamming your rulers. Get that? Congress has the lowest percentage of approval EVER, how is that representing of the people? If I'm slamming your lame congress and lame government, I'm NOT slamming the people of the United States. BIG difference, so stop accusing me of being an America hater, alright? I am not.

You love straw man arguments right?

"Ah, yes. The old "if you don't agree with me, that's because you're wrong/bad/ignorant" tactic. Objective, indeed, my fine Canadian friend. I can assure you, you are in absolutely no position to attempt to dictate to me how I feel about my country or how much I care about what's going on."

Totally NOT what I was referring to. I was stating that people who don't CARE if their country is a police state or not are part of the problem, because of their inaction. The people have the power to stop the tyranny of their own government, if you don't give a flying F about it, it's your fault. People have been asleep for too long.

"I'm not all "grr!! Look at my objective horror! Look at my removed sadness that some other country is going to hell in a hand basket!" doesn't mean I don't care."

You are totally right on this one, but you DID say that you don't care about it? Please use some consistency.

"Anyway, back to the real topic at hand, I don't have to "research" TSA. Unlike you, I have first-hand experience dealing with TSA."

Indeed you do, but maybe if you opened yourself to other points of view you could learn a thing or two. It didn't happen to you, doesn't mean it didn't happen to other people. I people who have been abused by TSA, that's the power of the internet, I have actual internet friends living their everyday life in your country.

I'm not sure I want to continue this debate or not, as you seem to twist what I'm saying and putting words into my mouth. I feel it's not an honest debate, so either we get it healthy or I will quietly leave this thread. Right now it feels like a lost of time because I don't feel you are willing to have an honest discussion. Sorry if I made myself unclear at times, I think I have addressed what needed to be.

Because it is a useless encroachment on people's rights with an overly-hpyed paranoia of terrorism.

It wastes peoples time, it sets back airline schedules, it encourages sleezy individuals, increases body radiation.

Scanning the luggage, some dogs at the airport, a few armed marshals aboard each flight = PLENTY

I think it is OBVIOUS for everyone EXCEPT: "I gotta make money everywhere and for any reason" people.

People on this thread are actually defending and claiming the TSA as necessary? This is 2012, right? Is this a serious thread or an april fools appetizer?

In conclusion: WTF?!?