Why do so many people have an issue with the TSA?

reply to post by defcon5


yeah and that situation is crap. They have no problem ruining my day because I am just an average citizen?

That makes it right somehow?

No one thinks so besides people who have a vested interest in their image.


Things that are wrong need to be corrected not apeased just because they have a rule book they wrote.

reply to post by Konduit

First off, that's not “entrapment”. Entrapment is when an agent of some type incites/entices you to do something that you would have never done, or thought of doing, then arrests you for it.

For example, if an undercover police officer walked up to you and told you they'd pay you $100 to spraypaint a wall, then arrested you for criminal mischief. That would be entrapment.

The Constitution only guarantees you the right to “locomotion”, which means the ability to travel from one place to the next. It does not guarantee you the manner of that locomotion, nor that there may not be additional laws, statutes, contracts, or regulations regarding that particular type of locomotion. This is why they cannot restrict you from riding in a personally owned car, but they can restrict you from operating it.

Now, The operator of that vehicle can add additional rules that you must comply with, at their discretion, and as long as there is another means of movement, your rights to locomotion have not been violated. Even walking is considered a means of “locomotion”, so your rights to move are never really impeded.

As an example, you can walk on an expressway if there is no other reasonable means to get from point A to point B. If there is a side street that is reasonably close the expressway, then they can prohibit your movement on the expressway, but if there is not, and a police officer stops you, he is violating your Constitutional Right to Locomotion.

Your rights regarding flying simply come down to the fact that there are other “reasonable” means available to you, and you agreed to a contract with the airlines to waive your rights to unreasonable search and seizure.

reply to post by defcon5
You need to ask yourself who creates these laws and if they absolutely have "your" best interests at heart, not the lining of their own pockets. The pornographic body scanners is a great example.

Originally posted by BIHOTZ
yeah and that situation is crap. They have no problem ruining my day because I am just an average citizen?

I have known a bunch of these guys as I was an airport employee.
They really just want to do their job like everyone else, but they have to deal with these issues all the time. If you had people making your job miserable on a daily basis, you'd start to have the same attitude. Basically, they didn't force you to fly, you agreed to the terms, and you shouldn't be throwing a temper tantrum with them because they ask you to fulfill the terms of the contract YOU AGREED TOO...

You know up front that you could be searched when you fly, you know what that entails, so why make their job miserable? If you had an objection to the search then you should not have bought a ticket, you should not have chosen to fly on a commercial airliner, and you should have taken another method of transport that was to your agreement.

Simple as that really.
Show them respect, and they'll show you respect.
Take out your abuse on them, and they will make your life a living nightmare.
They can do it too, because you waived your rights, and all the laws are on their side.

reply to post by Konduit

Contract of Carriage has been around, and has been the same since forever.
We had the same contract of carriage back in the 80's that you can find online now.
They have always had the same rights to search you, there is no defined method of how that search is to be carried out, simply that you must comply with it.

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by mugger

 

Your Constitutional Right do not apply to a contract where you waived your rights to unreasonable search. You do this when you accept the Contract of Carriage of an airline, and purchase their tickets.

Its basically the same as ATS here. You agree to our Terms and Conditions because this is a private site, even though some of those conditions may limit some of your Constitutional Rights to things such as talking about anything you wish on this site. You agree because you want to be a member here, and you waive certain rights. If you do not wish to waive those rights, then you can choose to not be a member here.

Same thing with the airlines, see?

So basically, you are reassuring that these guys and you "ATS", are assholes, and it's either your way or the highway? If i am looking at this wrong, please, enlighten me!

reply to post by WiindWalker


No, its called the rights of management of a private enterprise. Whether that be a website, a bar, a store, an entertainment complex, or an airline. The owners can make any rules they want, as long as they do not conflict with certain laws, and your only option is to agree or not patronize them.

reply to post by defcon5


while I agree that respect is a great thing, I disagree with allot of what you said there. I show up, not having made their job harder or worse and they treat me like the rest of the people that made their day miserable. No one forced them to get that job. I need to fly because we are not in the stone age and the same way they need to work I need to fly. It is not an option. People would starve if they couldn't work and fly to their various engagements.

They have no right to treat me like a criminal just because they are in a bad mood. Unless they want us to get apprehensive about them because we get nothing but bad experiences with them. It is really up to them. They could be nice no matter the one guy that they don't like.

I should be respected by people that are supposedly there for our good. If not I will not respect them. I am not a whipping boy. If they don't like an unrewarding job then quit but don't be scum bags just because we don't like to get felt up and treated like criminals when on our one vacation a year or when working.

The respect must be mutual and the sorry excuse of security is just not cutting it anymore for the stripping of rights and dignity.

we are not even safer.

Originally posted by defcon5

Its basically the same as ATS here. You agree to our Terms and Conditions because this is a private site, even though some of those conditions may limit some of your Constitutional Rights to things such as talking about anything you wish on this site. You agree because you want to be a member here, and you waive certain rights. If you do not wish to waive those rights, then you can choose to not be a member here.

Same thing with the airlines, see?

Yeah, though I didn't appreciate the full cavity searches done by the mod you (ATS) sent over to my house.

You did send someone, right?

Seriously though, nothing is going to change unless we act with our wallets. And too many people will suffer through, just for the convenience of flying.

reply to post by defcon5


How about letting the airlines pay for this security then rather than it coming out of my tax dollars.
If people do not want to be groped and scanned, then they can opt out, and the airlines will have to react accordingly to peoples wishes. They will drop the scanners or bring in dog sniffers erc. The way it is now, we have no choice since the government is backing it with my money.

reply to post by jacobe001

The airlines do pay for security screening services.
Back before the TSA, the airlines would all contract with a particular security company that was compliant with FAA standards. This was why you used to go through the terminals and one security checkpoint might be manned by Wells Fargo, and another by ITS or Globe. When airlines would share space in a terminal, then they would also share the operating expenses for the contractors that worked in that terminal. So things like cleaning service, security, screeners, etc. were all paid for by the airline or airlines sharing a terminal together.

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by WiindWalker

 

No, its called the rights of management of a private enterprise. Whether that be a website, a bar, a store, an entertainment complex, or an airline. The owners can make any rules they want, as long as they do not conflict with certain laws, and your only option is to agree or not patronize them.

Why is this my only option? I'm assuming that you mean in general. If I wanted to patronize them, I would. It's my right as a living BEING.

And I guess it's their right to be the way they are. But, that doesn't mean that people like me can't take the "big guy" down. Just remember that.

I don't fly often, I flew from Detroit to Florida last year. All I had to do was take off my shoes and walk through a standard metal detector. Once that didn't go off, I went to the gate. There was no molestation, no probing, no body scanner. This was just last year, leaving out of the same airport that the Christmas Day bomber was taken into custody at.

Sorry folks, but its not that bad, not in my opinion. But people will like to gripe and blow things WAY out of proportion.

reply to post by jacobe001

also if you want to opt out of security, that is simple too.
Go over to the civil airport area, charter a plane, and you are allowed to opt out of security. You can charter an airplane of any size you want. ATA will be happy to fly you in your own personally chartered 747, first class all the way... You simply cannot go into the terminal and opt out because more then one airline is behind those checkpoints, and there are other passengers who are supposed to be considered “secured”. Even airport employees who go through the terminal MUST pass through the security checkpoints if they enter a public area.

reply to post by WiindWalker

Your only option is to vote with your wallet as Beezer mentioned, you cannot dictate what rules the owner of any private property sets on their property. Regardless if that property be a car, a bus, an airplane, a ship, a building, a house, a website, etc... If the owner sets rules, conditions, or requires a contract, as long as he is not breaking any laws, he is allowed to do that.

For example I can open a bar, and set the rule that only people whose first name starts with “S” are allowed entry on Friday nights. I can do that because its MY business, and MY property. Even if it is discriminatory, the government cannot tell me who I have to serve in MY business.

Originally posted by FoxMulder91

So walk throught the body scanner, if you feel strangers are going to "fondle you"

So I assume you are fine with people walking onto planes without being checked then?

Cheers

Do you believe for one minute that Israeli airports employ molesting or body scanners? When is the last time you've heard of an act of terror in an Israeli airport?

The TSA nightmare was born after the false-flag attack of the crotch bomber. A "bomber" with no passport that was globe hopping on commercial aircraft. The last leg of his trip was to take him from the airport in Amsterdam to Detroit. Two American lawyers, Kurt Haskell and Lori Haskell, saw a well-dressed man with American accent walk this terrorist past security at Amsterdam and got him on the plane. Are the red lights in your mind flashing yet?

If any number of 3-letter-agencies wants to put a bomb on an aircraft, there will be a bomb on the aircraft. If authorities want a shipment of coc aine on an aircraft, there will be a shipment of coc aine on the aircraft. If authorities want to fly rebel troops to Libya, planes full of "terrorists" will be in the air. Al-Qaeda does not exist other than as a creation of the CIA. The war-of-terror is a dog-n-pony show to distract and herd the masses.

Deny ignorance my friend.

Ah, no worries. We are ALL considered terrorists and treated as such equally, including children, grandparents, and little old nuns.

reply to post by jcarpenter


And that false flag underwear bomber is off somewhere vacationing and sipping margaritas having a good ol' boy time.

Thanks to him, we are all terrorists until we prove we are not!

Now, spread your legs and let bubba check your underwear out! Or, walk through the cancer causing machines, so we can view an xray of your genitalia. have a nice day, smile pretty!

Over 30 million people use this one airport alone, each year:

North Carolina Airport - Stats

That doesn't even take into account repeat flyers and as indicated, is just one airport.

It seems a shame to bias your opinion of TSA policies and their treatment of passengers on a few, scattered reports of (alleged) abuse of power - when these complaints constitute much less than 1% of individuals going through scanners / patdowns etc.

Israel has the safest airport in the world and Im pretty sure they dont have TSA. Trust me the only thing you have to worry about is Gov't created attacks to make you feel unsafe and give up your liberty.