The Lie of Evolution from a Credible Scientist

Originally posted by Deetermined
Once again, I'll point out that no one has suggested that mutations don't take place and that life does not evolve, only that the process may not have originated the way science thinks it did.

Seems at odds with this previous statement of yours no?

anything related to humans is entirely by design. Humans did not evolve from anything else.

reply to post by Prezbo369


You are correct. I believe that evolution exists, but I don't believe that humans have ever evolved from anything that wasn't already human. I believe it to be a process for certain life forms on earth, but not all. Not humans. Although I believe it exists, I believe it is limited.

reply to post by Prezbo369


Maybe this is where some of the confusion is.

With regards to Enochwasright's use of the term "consciousness", I believe he was talking about God. With that in mind, maybe that wasn't the way he intended it, but that's the way I perceived it.

God is of a spiritual nature, therefore, my term of Spirit Conscious.

I know some people on ATS regard God as the Universe itself, but I don't, and I don't believe Enochwasright does either. If Enochwasright was what I call a "Universalist" (believing in Universalism, where the Universe is God), I don't believe he would be quoting scriptures from the Bible. The fact that he believes in the God of the Bible, tells me that he is speaking about a God who is also known as the Holy Spirit, hence where Spiritual Consciousness comes from.

With that said, I believe humans to be spiritual creatures (with a soul) and with a physical body. God speaks to humans through the Holy Spirit. So, when you combine physical with spiritual, you have to take into consideration that our conscious is also tied to the spiritual conscious.

I hope this explanation helps in explaining some of my comments made on this thread or at least why I believe that humans did not evolve from some other life form.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

You are correct. I believe that evolution exists, but I don't believe that humans have ever evolved from anything that wasn't already human. I believe it to be a process for certain life forms on earth, but not all. Not humans. Although I believe it exists, I believe it is limited.

So which is it?

Do you think humans have only ever evolved from other members of the genus such as Homo neanderthalensis or Homo rhodesiensis

or

Humans simply do not evolve?

Either way you have a lot of work ahead of you

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

Maybe this is where some of the confusion is.

With regards to Enochwasright's use of the term "consciousness", I believe he was talking about God. With that in mind, maybe that wasn't the way he intended it, but that's the way I perceived it.

God is of a spiritual nature, therefore, my term of Spirit Conscious.

I know some people on ATS regard God as the Universe itself, but I don't, and I don't believe Enochwasright does either. If Enochwasright was what I call a "Universalist" (believing in Universalism, where the Universe is God), I don't believe he would be quoting scriptures from the Bible. The fact that he believes in the God of the Bible, tells me that he is speaking about a God who is also known as the Holy Spirit, hence where Spiritual Consciousness comes from.

With that said, I believe humans to be spiritual creatures (with a soul) and with a physical body. God speaks to humans through the Holy Spirit. So, when you combine physical with spiritual, you have to take into consideration that our conscious is also tied to the spiritual conscious.

I hope this explanation helps in explaining some of my comments made on this thread or at least why I believe that humans did not evolve from some other life form.

I'm sure everyone here was fully aware that SuperiorEnochwasaBandteacher and yourself were referring to some kind of supernatural being when talking about disembodied consciousness, don't be under any illusion about that.

All thats needed now is for you, or anyone else, to verify your claims and we can finally chew it over.

Until then you are both merely making idle speculation that no-one (who hasn't already made up their mind) is going to take seriously...

And your reason for believing that humans are exempt from the evolutionary process......'god did it'

What???

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Prezbo369

 

Maybe this is where some of the confusion is.

With regards to Enochwasright's use of the term "consciousness", I believe he was talking about God. With that in mind, maybe that wasn't the way he intended it, but that's the way I perceived it.

God is of a spiritual nature, therefore, my term of Spirit Conscious.

I know some people on ATS regard God as the Universe itself, but I don't, and I don't believe Enochwasright does either. If Enochwasright was what I call a "Universalist" (believing in Universalism, where the Universe is God), I don't believe he would be quoting scriptures from the Bible. The fact that he believes in the God of the Bible, tells me that he is speaking about a God who is also known as the Holy Spirit, hence where Spiritual Consciousness comes from.

With that said, I believe humans to be spiritual creatures (with a soul) and with a physical body. God speaks to humans through the Holy Spirit. So, when you combine physical with spiritual, you have to take into consideration that our conscious is also tied to the spiritual conscious.

I hope this explanation helps in explaining some of my comments made on this thread or at least why I believe that humans did not evolve from some other life form.

edit on 23-3-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-3-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

This is best understood by knowing that there is no material outside of God for the universe. God is all that is, was or will be. God refuses to be represented by matter or any living creature. He is more. Spirit is consciousness and Holy Spirit is God's consciousness that is offered to us. We are projections in an image of light. If we simplify the Trinity, it is the same fundamental grouping that makes up man. Our bodies are particle and wave (Duality of light) and also consciousness. God is Father (Light), Son (Word / Wave) and Holy Spirit. The three things that make up the image of God are how we are also in God's image. We are represented here in two ways. We are inside the image. We are the same image in reflection.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

When we see anything around us, we see God from the light. God is also hidden by the light.

Gospel of Thomas

83 Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Actually a person never actually sees what they are looking at...what they DO SEE is the reflection of Photons from a light source...ie...the Sun...a Lamp...a Chemical Glow Stick....reflecting off something and picked up by our eyes. The entire explaination how the Human Eye Works and how we actually see everything unside down but our Brain reverses the picture around....I will pass on. But I have never understood why some people associate Light so much with GOD.

I guess a few thousand years ago...needing the Sun to be warm or grow something to eat would be high on my priority. Split Infinity

I don't understand why you have to deny evolution to believe in an ultimate creator?

Seems silly to me.

Why has society become so black and white in it's thinking? The Human Race is supposed to become more enlightened, not fall into ignorant dogma.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

I'm sure everyone here was fully aware that SuperiorEnochwasaBandteacher and yourself were referring to some kind of supernatural being when talking about disembodied consciousness, don't be under any illusion about that.

All thats needed now is for you, or anyone else, to verify your claims and we can finally chew it over.

Until then you are both merely making idle speculation that no-one (who hasn't already made up their mind) is going to take seriously...

And your reason for believing that humans are exempt from the evolutionary process......'god did it'

What???

That's just it, the reason both sides have never come together is because neither is capable of "proving" anything in man's terms, so I wouldn't be looking for proof of spirit, unless you're open enough to listen to other people who claim they have experienced it. Take ChaoticOrder for example. Someone who claims to have had spiritual experiences that science would say is bogus, but clearly believes in science more than God. He/she claims that these experiences can probably be explained through some scientific theory, but not all. In other words, there is no explanation for it, nor will there ever be, without faith. Unfortunately, most people won't develop faith until they've had a personal spiritual experience of their own, and even that can be questionable. How much proof is enough? Probably none.

Yes, I believe humans are exempt from the evolutionary process. The Bible tells us that earth and all of it's lifeforms and inhabitants (that aren't man) were created especially for man and that man was put here to control all of it and to use everything in it for their own purposes, as well as for God's. God even told Adam to be the one to name all the beasts on the earth.

In reality, I don't expect either side to ever come up with all the proof. God will have to provide that proof himself at a time that is outlined and discussed in the Bible, if only everyone would take the time to read it.

Do not put your faith in man to come up with all of the answers. They were never intended to have it. I think we've been given plenty of "proof" as to why we should NOT put our faith in man. It will only lead down a road of destruction, not answers.

ETA: People need to start exercising their spirit instead of only their minds for them to work together. Everyone has a spirit, but they don't realize it, because they don't exercise it. Prayer helps.

Originally posted by Deetermined
My point, much like you stated about the unicorn, is that there are aspects to human life that science will never be able to determine because it's not entirely physical, it's spiritual too. I'm not trying to imply that "scientific proof" means nothing, but the proof that exists will never reach a total/final conclusion based on my previous sentence.

That's not necessarily true. Science continues to advance. There's a very good chance that we will be able to do that kind of stuff one day. For for now we can't, so there's no evidence that it exists. When I say that, I'm not saying its false. Just that its not backed by evidence, and therefor cannot be compared to science.

You're right. I can't help you to see perfection, just as you can't help me to see chaos at work. I can only try to point out observations that might lead us to believe that all things work together in unison.

You didn't give me any observations of the perfectness. You said it was perfect and called it a day. We can measure forces (laws) in the universe. Just because its possible doesn't mean it was created.

It's not hard to accept science. It's only hard to accept it as the final word or thought when there's so little that has been discovered compared to what's out there to be researched.

Science itself doesn't consider it the final word! That's why I said it constantly evolves as new knowledge is available. That's how it works. It's our best understanding based on the current level of knowledge. We are a tiny spec, on a tiny planet, with a tiny star, in a huge galaxy, in a HUGE universe. Compared to the universe itself we are extremely microscopic. Of course we won't know absolutely everything. It is not possible.

The problem is thinking that those who question or criticize evolution don't know anything about it. Are you telling me that no reputable scientist has ever questioned it? If scientists weren't constantly questioning each other, we'd probably never have proof of anything, nor would it ever advance.

Exactly what I said. You can't criticize if you aren't knowledgeable hence why scientists are the ones that question their respective theories and hypotheses. Not lay folks like on this message forum that constantly claim they know more than people who have studied it their entire lives.

By the way, has anyone claimed on this thread that evolution does not exist? All I've read OVER and OVER is the suggestion that maybe a higher consciousness created the push/laws to start the evolution process. If you don't have a problem with a God doing the pushing, why does everyone appear to be taking this so personally? Because it really appears that way to me. In the meanwhile, we can hope that science and spiritually come together some day, but I'm not betting on it.

The claim in this thread is that evolution is not a cause. It clearly is. That is blatantly false and every time I mention it, the OP ignores that fact. I only have a problem when people say that complexity means proof. God is just a hypothesis at this point. If the beauty, complexity and amazingness of nature help you justify your faith, then more power to you. It isn't proof, or anything at all more than personal opinion however. I can respect it as opinion. Maybe I got a little OT with evolution mechanics, but when the thread title says "The lie of evolution", it is very misleading, and the complexity = design opinion has been done to death in this section. I'm always skeptical when people promote their religion by focusing on deception and false assumptions about science, rather than the positives of their belief system.

You are correct. I believe that evolution exists, but I don't believe that humans have ever evolved from anything that wasn't already human. I believe it to be a process for certain life forms on earth, but not all. Not humans. Although I believe it exists, I believe it is limited.

Nobody's arguing evolution? How do you explain the fact that we have mapped the entire human genome, and can measure the mutations from generation to generation? What about the fossils of the many hominid species that came before homo sapiens. We've mapped the genome of Neanderthals and others that share a common ancestor. Humans today are different from humans just 30,000 years ago. The homo genus has been evolving and changing for 2.5 million years. Ardipithicus ramidus and Australopithecus are not human. But here we go, you are doing exactly what I described above. Criticizing a field of science that has hard evidence behind it, when you have not even done the research behind it to make such a claim. The very basics of evolution are slow change over time. You don't just suddenly have a human pop up out of an ape. This is why I'm so critical of threads like this. At least learn the basics.

Originally posted by Barcs

Nobody's arguing evolution? How do you explain the fact that we have mapped the entire human genome, and can measure the mutations from generation to generation? What about the fossils of the many hominid species that came before homo sapiens. We've mapped the genome of Neanderthals and others that share a common ancestor. Humans today are different from humans just 30,000 years ago. The homo genus has been evolving and changing for 2.5 million years. Ardipithicus ramidus and Australopithecus are not human. But here we go, you are doing exactly what I described above. Criticizing a field of science that has hard evidence behind it, when you have not even done the research behind it to make such a claim. The very basics of evolution are slow change over time. You don't just suddenly have a human pop up out of an ape. This is why I'm so critical of threads like this.

I'm sure humans have evolved over the years, since the Bible says the first human lifespans were close to 1,000 years. But we have always been a critical thinking and emotional human from the beginning, not an animal/ape that evolved into a human. God appointed man above the animals from the beginning to rule over them.

By the way, I have yet to find any information on the human genome project or neanderthal genome project that shows that they are complete or are not "riddled with errors".

Originally posted by Deetermined
since the Bible says the first human lifespans were close to 1,000 years. But we have always been a critical thinking and emotional human from the beginning, not an animal/ape that evolved into a human. God appointed man above the animals from the beginning to rule over them.

It says so in the Bible, so it must be true. I'm rather sick & tired of "proving" evolution to evolution deniers, so from now on both sides have to put forth equal amounts of evidence. So, prove that humans used to live close to 1,000 years. Prove that the Bible is true.

If quoting books is enough evidence, I can say that humans never lived close to 1,000 years. Actual empirical evidence supports my book, and everything in it can be falsified. In short, you're losing. What now?

reply to post by rhinoceros


"my book"?

What book is that?

Originally posted by Deetermined
I'm sure humans have evolved over the years, since the Bible says the first human lifespans were close to 1,000 years. But we have always been a critical thinking and emotional human from the beginning, not an animal/ape that evolved into a human. God appointed man above the animals from the beginning to rule over them.

By the way, I have yet to find any information on the human genome project or neanderthal genome project that shows that they are complete or are not "riddled with errors".

The bible is not a science book, nor is it a veritably accurate source for anything. Sorry, the evidence points to evolution of ALL creatures on earth, including humans. We are evolving right now and it can be measured. We can trace our ancestors back some 6 million years. If you don't understand the concept of slow change over time, then you need to take an evolution 101 class or perhaps read a book about it. You can't criticize something you don't understand.

Originally posted by Barcs

The bible is not a science book, nor is it a veritably accurate source for anything. Sorry, the evidence points to evolution of ALL creatures on earth, including humans. We are evolving right now and it can be measured. We can trace our ancestors back some 6 million years. If you don't understand the concept of slow change over time, then you need to take an evolution 101 class or perhaps read a book about it. You can't criticize something you don't understand.

Fine.

Just show me the proof that we traced our ancestors back 6 million years.

reply to post by Deetermined

It's not a literal book but a huge collection of scientific articles. Now, prove that humans used to live for nearly 1,000 years.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by Barcs

The bible is not a science book, nor is it a veritably accurate source for anything. Sorry, the evidence points to evolution of ALL creatures on earth, including humans. We are evolving right now and it can be measured. We can trace our ancestors back some 6 million years. If you don't understand the concept of slow change over time, then you need to take an evolution 101 class or perhaps read a book about it. You can't criticize something you don't understand.

Fine.

Just show me the proof that we traced our ancestors back 6 million years.

Doesn't work like that anymore. You first prove that humans used to live close to 1,000 years.

reply to post by rhinoceros


Genesis 5:1-5

1) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2) Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

4) And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

5) And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

The verses after these list Adam's descendants and shows how long each one of them lived as well.

Originally posted by Deetermined
Fine.

Just show me the proof that we traced our ancestors back 6 million years.

Like I said, if you're interested you should start with a simple human evolution google search. The information is readily available.

www.roiscience.com...

www.proof-of-evolution.com...

Here's a couple good ones that list the species we have found.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's the full list of fossils.

We have mapped the genome of Neanderthals, Denisovans, and a newly found unknown species.

Just like all evolution it is slow change over time. No different from the rest of the animal kingdom. Humans didn't just pop up overnight. They went from Ardi to lucy to habilis to humans. Ardi is one of the oldest hominids found that has human features like bipedalism.

reply to post by Deetermined

That doesn't prove anything, except that some desert people wrote such thing a few thousand years ago. Try again.